so i have this big pair -- nl cash
 

situation came up twice in one session -- once versus an unknown who had only called one reraise (he folded the flop) and once versus a player i had history with but has not seen me do this

pretty much same stack sizes/types of flops. anyway . . .

3/6 no limit
600 stacks

i have black kk. he raises to 18. i reraise to 60. he calls.

flop (120)
T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

i shove for 540.

do you like this more versus an unknown or versus a player who you've played for awhile but hasn't see you do this? or on the other hand . . .

do you hate this more versus an unknown or versus a player who you've played for awhile but hasn't see you do this?

Re: so i have this big pair -- nl cash
 

I like it better with a board where you might plausibly have ace high (three wheel cards on board)

Re: so i have this big pair -- nl cash
 

I'm not sure who I'd like this more against, but I do have a question - what's the reasoning behind this move? To get called light? To keep mediocre draws from calling/shoving over a cbet?

Re: so i have this big pair -- nl cash
 

i think JTx boards might be better than three broadways for repping a bluff (ak/aq might want to do this)

Re: so i have this big pair -- nl cash
 

Won't a regular see the transparency of this? Do you ever do this with a draw?

Re: so i have this big pair -- nl cash
 

I don't like this because hands that have you completely [censored] will call but nothing else will touch this board.

You definitely have better +EV by just laying out a solid bet.

Re: so i have this big pair -- nl cash
 

[ QUOTE ]
i think JTx boards might be better than three broadways for repping a bluff (ak/aq might want to do this)

[/ QUOTE ]

three wheel cards != three broadways... agreed that JTx also works though

Re: so i have this big pair -- nl cash
 

Shoving is not bad because it's probable that jacks or queens would call you .

I still prefer making a pot size bet though .

Re: so i have this big pair -- nl cash
 

I think its fine to do OCCASIONALLY. Say 10% of the time. Would you ever play AK this way?

Re: so i have this big pair -- nl cash
 

crai or bet/folding are better than shoving. But i guess you can shove now vs a regular player who you want to set up some metagame issues with. That's always fun when it works out. But I hate shoving just to charge draws esp on this rediculously dangerous board.

Re: so i have this big pair -- nl cash
 

This is a spew. Why would you bet so big against draws? The only danger in firing out a small bet is that JJ or QQ might come over the top of you, forcing you to laydown the best hand.

I hate this against any player.

Re: so i have this big pair -- nl cash
 

oops read that too quickly -- that one works well too.

my thinking on the hand in general was that if i bet say 100 i'm going to have a 320 pot with 440 behind. i have very few safe cards -- k, 5, 4, 3, 2 -- though some of the others aren't quite so bad.

fwiw, i think people completely underestimating the range an aggro player gets looked up here. i think he's actually calling a shove with a decent portion of his range that calls a c-bet

Re: so i have this big pair -- nl cash
 

I like whaahhahahah's thinking and I am extremely (almost insanely) aggressive. If it's someone I play a lot I may do this occasionally but I would rather do it against an unknown. My reasoning behind this is that if they realize I am so aggressive, this often looks like air with a draw or something. (obviously, the kind of hand you represent by making this bet)

Against someone I've played more than a few hands with I don't do this as much because they are familiar with my aggressive style and it seems a bit out of character. I might toy around with it and try to see what kind of reaction I get but I really like your thinking. Out of the box type thinking really separates the pack in heads up in my opinion.

Re: so i have this big pair -- nl cash
 

[ QUOTE ]
The only danger in firing out a small bet is that JJ or QQ might come over the top of you, forcing you to laydown the best hand.


[/ QUOTE ]

We should never fold kings vs a raise in a 3betted pot with this board.

As to whether or not it's a good play; I don't hate it, I don't love it.. potting should be better.

Re: so i have this big pair -- nl cash
 

Shoving is good if you have a history with a guy and if you use second level thinking. You figure that he will put you on AK somehow. Otherwise, I prefer a pot bet.

Re: so i have this big pair -- nl cash
 

neither. You get called by hands that have you dominated or are flipping with you and folds from worse hands.

Re: so i have this big pair -- nl cash
 

[ QUOTE ]
neither. You get called by hands that have you dominated or are flipping with you and folds from worse hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

You wouldn't make a bet here? This is a little weak, don't you think so?

Re: so i have this big pair -- nl cash
 

i guess i like it better vs. someone you know (assuming their perception of you and your history caters to makin this type of play effective) but tbh i dont rele like it either way.

i guess i just dont see the point to this WITHOUT some extensive history and metagame going on.

Re: so i have this big pair -- nl cash
 

also this makes you very exploitable vs a good player. thus this makes it even more retarted to do against an unknown imo.

edit to say: this is in regards to the particular board you mentioned- 1098 two of a suit or w/e

Re: so i have this big pair -- nl cash
 

i think this is a situation where i'm trying to look f.o.s.

if i had not posted teh hand and had asked people to give me a read, i think i wouldve gotten a much wider range

fwiw, i got looked up by qq from the unknown and 97o by the player who i have history with

Re: so i have this big pair -- nl cash
 

[ QUOTE ]
i think this is a situation where i'm trying to look f.o.s.

if i had not posted teh hand and had asked people to give me a read, i think i wouldve gotten a much wider range

fwiw, i got looked up by qq from the unknown and 97o by the player who i have history with

[/ QUOTE ]

im not sayin this type of play cant/shouldnt be utilized. in the right spots it can be great (read: 97o).but wouldn't you agree that QQ is at the bottom of the calling range of a good unknown in this spot? donks will be donks and call with less, but a good unknown could make mincemeat out of you doing this, so i'd jsut prefer to play it standard until you do develop a feel for your opponent.