What do I do about a card marker?
 

What I feared has resurfaced. Somebody is marking cards. I had two fresh setups today, and many aces are clearly marked now. It was a tournament, so I've been able to narrow down to five potential people who were on both tables. I've been running cash games with these new setups for a couple of weeks without problems. I think this is the first tournament with them, and we get a larger crowd for those.

What the hell do I do?

Of the five most likely candidates, here's what I have...

* One is an old friend whom I've been playing with for years. I told him about the problem when I noticed before so he could help keep an eye out, so it would be ridiculously stupid of him to keep doing it. Also, he was at the second table for hardly any time at all, and those decks are also marked.

* One is someone who seems a rather nice and trustworthy fellow, my own age, similar interests, etc. He seems an earnest student of the game.

* One is someone I know through my music scene, aslo a trustworthy guy, but I don't really know him that well. He only made it to the second table when we combined for the final, and I took over dealing shortly after that point. Action moved a lot faster then, so I don't think he'd have had the time to mark them up.

* One is someone I know from a game among chemistry grad students. He plays a straightforward game, but I don't want to trust him just because he's more educated. Someone who would do this has a sickness beyond class distinction. But he seems a nice trustworthy guy, and I've sent an email to someone who used to run another game he played in, but that was a while ago and with paper cards, so doubt I'll get much info there.

* The most likely candidate is a mildly shady character, is more of a "player", and has been involved in some of the more heated discussions from time to time. He's not the most well liked of the players, and he plays an emotional game. He's our current league leader and plays a very good game, but has a lot of ego tied up in it. I'd hate to accuse him based on just a character description, but he's been at more of the games than anybody, with access to all the decks previously marked. However, he also comes to a lot of cash games, and I haven't noticed any markes after cash games.

Any guidance here from anybody? This really sucks. Should I keep using the setups? I noticed one because I felt it while dealing, but you can't really tell by looking at them. Buying these is getting expensive, and it would be a long process to eliminate candidates, considering the tournaments are only monthly and most of these guys only play in the tournaments. That's a long time to be suspicious and uneasy.

What would you do? What should I do?

Re: What do I do about a card marker?
 

How about telling the truth? Just say right before the tournament begins what you have noticed and that you have no idea who did this (which is more or less true, you only have a hunch). I highly doubt anyone will try to mark cards when you just said this to the entire group.

Re: What do I do about a card marker?
 

This is like CLUE.

This is the guy who did it, in the Parlor, with the Dagger.

* One is someone who seems a rather nice and trustworthy fellow, my own age, similar interests, etc. He seems an earnest student of the game.

How is he marking the cards?

Re: What do I do about a card marker?
 

I would definitively inform everybody about it before playing any other game!

Some people might not trust you anymore, because there was a scam going on in your game, but most should realise that you are trying to have a clean by telling everybody about it.

If for instance you would tell, and somehow people would find out about it, and find out that you knew about it, I would never ever play at one of your games!


How exactly are your cards marked? This could be interesting in regard of who did it!

If you really think to know who it was, I would let him fall into a trap by leaving the cards where he feels sure to mark them, and then confront him!

Re: What do I do about a card marker?
 

It may seem like a tough call at first between catching the guy and informing everyone, but I gotta agree with everyone else. If you don't inform people now then you're partially complicit since you're hosting what you know to be an unfair game.

Re: What do I do about a card marker?
 

"Lately I've been noticing someone marking the cards. I have a very good idea who it is so please stop it or we will have to uninvite you. This is a time for us to get together and have fun and work on our game, cheaters aren't welcome and aren't appreciated here. You know who you are so stop while you can. Thanks"

That should work fine. If not, then have five trustworthy people monitor everyone at the table (the five), one person each, for the whole night. This can be done discreetly. If they notice anything, call them out on it in front of everyone then beat their asses like norton and damon in the cops' game in rounders. lol

Re: What do I do about a card marker?
 

Control the seating and try to narrow down the culprits. Use different types of decks if possible, so there is no doubt.
If you can, seat yourself at the table with the most likely suspect(s) and start watching for the marked cards to start showing up. watch their hands as they grab and hold their cards.

Are these plastic cards or paper? If the more expensive ones, I go with the announcement possibly and say that it's too expensive to keep replacing the cards.


Another option- don't invite potential culprits to a tourney, see if the marking stops. that will REALLY narrow it down.
"Oh, did I forget to include you in the email? Sorry"

Re: What do I do about a card marker?
 

There's a certain kind of damage which I feel is unintentional. Below is a picture from MY setup (not pfapfap). The marks are very hard to see, and is most visible from the card face as opposed to the back.

This happens when you place the cards perpendicular to you so the cards we a wide rectangle left-to-right, and squeeze the top corner to see your cards, a method I've been guilty of on the past, but try to avoid this as much as I can. I've seen this on both my Modiano and Copag setups.

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/9...0894rv3.th.jpg

Re: What do I do about a card marker?
 

Hmm.

The marking is a fingernail mark. A crescent shaped indentation along the long side of the card. It's possible it's from someone being too excited when checking aces, but this is too much of a coincidence. Looking through it now, a few others are marked, too, most of them suited to the aces that are marked in each setup (about half of them total), but there is the occasional stray marked card. The decks were clean before the game, I know that for certain.

The problem I have with announcing is that then the person may stop or, worse, find some better way to cheat. I'd really like to find out who it is. I'd hate to have to charge an even higher vig, as we're already at the max people seem to want to pay. ($15 on a usually $60-$100 buyin, depending on rebuys; this just barely covers the food and drink.)

Considering I've changed out setups when I've noticed, and I've never played on a table with a marked setup after I've noticed, I don't think people will think I've been cheating. I have a very good reputation here, and people would respect that I took time to try to figure out who it was. Really, it's not easily noticed unless you're touching the cards. Only one one of the suspects (the chem grad student) was dealing last night, and I don't think he dealt much the last time this happened.

I'm having a smaller game next week and two of the suspects are likely to show up. I'll buy some new setups of the easily marked brands, see what happens. The biggest suspect will be here, as will one other from last night and one person I'm not sure of regardless. There will be at least two trusted people I can get help me watch.

I'm very much a non-violent person, but I play one game with a biker gang. If I get definitive proof on this, I think the only think preventing me from ordering a beat-down is I think the person would then try to get my game busted.

This really sucks I have to do this. It really f'ed up my game last night. I had been doing fairly well, but just the knowledge that this was going on threw me for a loop and I had to suddenly be suspicious of people I thought were my friends. I really do want to make it public, just so I can relax a bit, but I think I should hold off on confronting anybody until after this week.

Blah.

Re: What do I do about a card marker?
 

Next tournament, I would make a statement before it starts. This statement wouldn't accuse any person nor would it even mention cheating.

Simply state that last tournament some cards were marked up. You would like all players to be very careful and respect these fairly expensive cards. Also, you would want all players to watch for any cards that have marks and bring it up right away.

I am willing to bet with 99% certainty that there will be no marked cards at the end of that tourney.

I honestly believe that just mentioning it to the group and asking everybody to be more careful and watch out for any damaged cards will be enough to stop this guy in his tracks. And really, it may just be a case of a guy trying out something. I mean did he really get into a hand where a marked card affected his decision? I'm betting it just a guy testing the waters and now you've basically told him we notice so it ain't gonna work.

Realistically, is this a professional cheat who is out to win your tourney or a guy who got a bad beat and is farting around with getting even somehow?

Of course it's always great to weed out a bad apple but it's also good to nip a guy in the bud and set him back down a path of integrity.

And for Godssakes, let us know how this turned out.

Re: What do I do about a card marker?
 

If the marks are on an unusual number of aces or face cards, then I'd say it's intentional. I've found that my card's "marks" seem fairly well spread out over the deck.

I really think you have to announce this. It's affecting your enjoyment of your own game and even though I'm sure catching the culprit (if this was of malicious intent) would be satisfying, you're going to drive yourself nuts trying to "discover" who it is.

Pfap, take a pic if you can and post it here.

Re: What do I do about a card marker?
 

Here's a fairly extreme example of the method of peeking at your cards that I'm referring to.

http://img103.imageshack.us/img103/9682/peekzh7.th.jpg
http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/5...0898ch9.th.jpg

Re: What do I do about a card marker?
 

Is there any way for you to discreetly tape one of the tables?

This way, if/when you catch the guy, there's no way for him to talk his way out of it.

Re: What do I do about a card marker?
 

I assume that these marks can be seen somehow. Like from a glare of light or something. If not what good do they do? Would the player need to feel them? Who does this benefit? Only person that comes to my mind is the dealer. Any player have especially nice sharp fingernails?

I would be inclined to pull decks at random intervals during the games and inspect them. Should take no time at all to find the aces and check them. Seperate the likely suspects as much as possible too. Heck, I would even go so far as to sit out a tourney and just monitor everything.

While I'm not all for beating somebody in this situation as it can lead to some serious legal trouble I am for publicly outing this person. Since I'm located close to you I don't want this guy migrating to my game.

Good luck and keep us posted.

Re: What do I do about a card marker?
 

[ QUOTE ]
and is most visible from the card face as opposed to the back.


After reading your post I checked my cards and someone had marked ALL of them on the face. For example someone put a black A and a picture of leaf on my ace of spades!

Re: What do I do about a card marker?
 

[ QUOTE ]

I'm very much a non-violent person, but I play one game with a biker gang. If I get definitive proof on this, I think the only think preventing me from ordering a beat-down is I think the person would then try to get my game busted.


[/ QUOTE ]

Just to save you the embarrassment, the Bikers will laugh at you if you try to order a beat-down. They aren't going to beat up some guy at a game they aren't involved in because you think he is marking cards. Maybe they would give him a beating if you bring the guy over to their game and he marks the cards there.

I doubt these bikers are even serious guys or you wouldn't be allowed in their game. They are probably just like 99% of bikers - non-criminals who ride motorcycles.

Re: What do I do about a card marker?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hmm.

The marking is a fingernail mark. A crescent shaped indentation along the long side of the card.

[/ QUOTE ]


Mark all the 2's the same way.

Re: What do I do about a card marker?
 

I played in a home game recently where the deck was marked with pencil, but I could not figure out what the markings meant.

Anyway, the deck was taken out of play, though I wanted them to be destroyed. I cashed out and left.

Re: What do I do about a card marker?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hmm.

The marking is a fingernail mark. A crescent shaped indentation along the long side of the card.

[/ QUOTE ]


Mark all the 2's the same way.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol. Yeah, I'd say if you CAN'T catch the guy, you should just mark all the cards the same way, making it all even again, and then announce before the tournament starts the situation.

Maybe play one more tournament and see if you can narrow your suspect list down a bit more. Another tournament would have players sitting at different tables, and check the decks after maybe an hour or two into the tournament. If one table has a marked deck, and the other doesn't, and maybe 2 of your suspects are at the marked deck table, you know it was one of those two. Next tournament, don't invite one of them...

Re: What do I do about a card marker?
 

Another thing to keep in mind, when trying to find the culprit...don't just try to catch them marking the cards since that can be done very naturally anyways....you should also look for people who stare at other players cards intently.

I'm not suggesting such staring is proof, but it would be further evidence.

Re: What do I do about a card marker?
 

I would tend to think the person would be more apt to move their head from side to side and or up / down. I assume the mark will cause a glare when the light hits it just right so the person is moving their head around for different light angles / reflection points. Try it out for yourself and you'll get the idea of what movements to be suspicious of.

Re: What do I do about a card marker?
 

just thought I'd throw this out there. I work at a poker club in my area, and one thing we do to to keep this from happening is rotating decks every tournament level. We used Copags and gemacos, so these decks are the same as most home games use. I don't know/if you rotate dealers, but this might cut down on the marking.

Our usual set up is 2 decks per dealer, in case of a deck change request, and each dealer takes their set-ups with them when they change tables.

Re: What do I do about a card marker?
 

Howdy folks. I haven't posted in here because I got paranoid of some of the suspects reading this and recognizing my name and the situation. But here's an update...

After much discussion with a few trusted people, we decided that it was likely accidental, but agreed that it was completely useless for gaining any sort of advantage. So the main annoyance is simple disrespect for me and my cards and the game.

Last night's game, two of the suspects were playing. I put a fresh setup on their table. When it broke, I checked, and the marks were there. So now it's down to two. One is one of the most likely, one is someone I don't think would do it intentionally but wouldn't rule out is inexperienced enough with live play to do it accidentally.

I sent out a mass email to everybody talking about the mark and saying I was annoyed and not to freakin' do it any more. I also let it be known that I had been tracking it and keeping marked setups out of play, and assured that it was completely useless as a cheating tool.

I then sent out a bcc email to the two people who were at all of the tables with freshly marked cards, implying that it was a somewhat larger group and that I had to use the information at my disposal and make them aware of the situation.

* One person wrote back saying he's here to learn and have fun, and if he was concerned with money he wouldn't be drinking and smoking. He mentioned that he avoids looking at other people's cards if they make them visible, etc. He said he wasn't offended at being accused and understood that I had to do what I could, and he appreciated that I took as many pains as I did.

* The other person wrote back saying that he has a huge edge here already and that marking cards would be like cheating little children.

So, hey, who knows, but now it's there and done. I suppose I could've waited one more week and either gotten them on separate tables or switched out setups when the second person arrived, but at least this way it's hopefully done. I'll still keep an eye out.

Good times.

Re: What do I do about a card marker?
 

[ QUOTE ]

* The other person wrote back saying that he has a huge edge here already and that marking cards would be like cheating little children.


[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone else think it's this guy?

Re: What do I do about a card marker?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I suppose I could've waited one more week and either gotten them on separate tables or switched out setups when the second person arrived

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude, for real. I'm dissapointed that you didn't do this. This is the second time in two days a 2+2 had the chance to be Matlock or Mr. Brady in that episode of of the Bunch when they go to court for the car accident and he drops the briefcase, proving the victim's neck wasn't really damaged.

Re: What do I do about a card marker?
 

ahh go with paper cards. I have a guy at my house telling me to get the plastic cards. With my paper cards they are new decks every tourney and they are only $.50 a deck.

Re: What do I do about a card marker?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I suppose I could've waited one more week and either gotten them on separate tables or switched out setups when the second person arrived

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude, for real. I'm dissapointed that you didn't do this.

[/ QUOTE ]

For real I'm disappointed, too. I just got impatient and fed up. I don't always make good decisions.

It may still happen again. I'll have fresh setups this week. If it happens again and I narrow it down to one person, I'll present him with an option. He either brings a fresh unopened setup of bridge style regular index KEMs or Copags next time he plays, or he doesn't play. Intentional or accidental, he'll pay for his damage.

I really wouldn't want to go to paper cards. I suppose it makes sense to use them for tournaments, and perhaps even on tables I'm not running in the cash games. At least minimize the damage with zero affect on my own experience. But it takes away from the overall quality of the game I prefer to run.

Re: What do I do about a card marker?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

* The other person wrote back saying that he has a huge edge here already and that marking cards would be like cheating little children.


[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone else think it's this guy?

[/ QUOTE ]



You stole my thunder. His answer "red flagged" him as the ringer.