QTs hits two pair on fairly uncoordinated, rainbow flop. capping good?
 

i'm in utg+1 with QTs. UTG limps. i limp. CO raises. SB calls. BB calls. UTG calls. I call.

Flop: Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Checked to me. I bet. CO raises. SB 3bets. Both BB and UTG cold call 3 bets (??). I cap. Everybody calls.

I'm pretty scared by SB's check-3bet. What do you think?

Re: QTs hits two pair on fairly uncoordinated, rainbow flop. capping good?
 

Reads would be nice.

I'd rather c/r the inevitable c-bet on this flop than lead out. When it exploads I hang on and see what the turn brings. Lots of scare cards out there.

Re: QTs hits two pair on fairly uncoordinated, rainbow flop. capping g
 

dude wtf flop donk. are you guys getting that from a book somewhere?

Re: QTs hits two pair on fairly uncoordinated, rainbow flop. capping g
 

[ QUOTE ]
Reads would be nice.

I'd rather c/r the inevitable c-bet on this flop than lead out. When it exploads I hang on and see what the turn brings. Lots of scare cards out there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, it looks like you could get a bunch more bets in there by check raising the aggressor to your left. I'd be building a pot right now. On a safe turn, I'd be shooting to protect the hand/charge draws.

Re: QTs hits two pair on fairly uncoordinated, rainbow flop. capping g
 

[ QUOTE ]
dude wtf flop donk. are you guys getting that from a book somewhere?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, Tyler. I'm just trying to learn here.

Perhaps it would be helpful if you explained when it would be a good idea to donk and why it's not a good idea to do so here.

Re: QTs hits two pair on fairly uncoordinated, rainbow flop. capping g
 

first tell us why you donked. what was your thought process? what were you trying to accomplish?

Re: QTs hits two pair on fairly uncoordinated, rainbow flop. capping g
 

its pretty much never a good idea to donk

Re: QTs hits two pair on fairly uncoordinated, rainbow flop. capping g
 

I would have c/r the flop. since everyone showed passiveness by checking to you, and if you checked, CO would likely to C-bet. There would some callers, and you can raise again for value. Most of the time, those players who have called a bet, would call a raise again for just one more bet.

However SB's 3-bet is very alarming. He could have hit a set, and is trying extract max value.

Re: QTs hits two pair on fairly uncoordinated, rainbow flop. capping g
 

[ QUOTE ]
its pretty much never a good idea to donk

[/ QUOTE ]

Considering how much trouble people (like myself for instance) in this forum have facing a donk I disagree. It also has a lot to do with how vulnerable our hand is and how likely BTN is to c-bet. Always checking to the raiser is not good either.

I don't think bet/3-bet is such a bad plan in this hand. Many worse hands BTN could raise with and the board is not excactly safe. Also BTN is facing 3 opps and will probably not bet for example 99 on this board. I don't know which the best line really is, but I don't think CR is so much better that u don't need to make a good argument for it.

Re: QTs hits two pair on fairly uncoordinated, rainbow flop. capping g
 

[ QUOTE ]
its pretty much never a good idea to donk

[/ QUOTE ]

This is wrong, although people do overuse it.

OP there's only 5 combos of reasonable hands beating you ATM, no I'm not scared at all.

Re: QTs hits two pair on fairly uncoordinated, rainbow flop. capping g
 

[ QUOTE ]
its pretty much never a good idea to donk

[/ QUOTE ]

lol "never..." uh, thats wrong.

draws, monsters.

Re: QTs hits two pair on fairly uncoordinated, rainbow flop. capping g
 

c/r the flop. Leading would be a better option if the flop had an FD or was QT8.

Lead almost all turns.

Re: QTs hits two pair on fairly uncoordinated, rainbow flop. capping good?
 

PF: Fold (do we not review PF play unless asked anymore)
Flop: CR, but as played call SB and then call from here on out unless we fill up

Re: QTs hits two pair on fairly uncoordinated, rainbow flop. capping g
 

[ QUOTE ]
PF: Fold (do we not review PF play unless asked anymore)
Flop: CR, but as played call SB and then call from here on out unless we fill up

[/ QUOTE ]

I think limper here can definitely be fine as can a raise.

Re: QTs hits two pair on fairly uncoordinated, rainbow flop. capping g
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
PF: Fold (do we not review PF play unless asked anymore)
Flop: CR, but as played call SB and then call from here on out unless we fill up

[/ QUOTE ]

I think limping here can definitely be fine as can a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

*limping

Re: QTs hits two pair on fairly uncoordinated, rainbow flop. capping g
 

Re: QTs hits two pair on fairly uncoordinated, rainbow flop. capping g
 

Ben.. you're wrong...it's not so simple. Depending on the game a limp is 100% fine. A raise can be fine too, as can a fold. We don't really have enough info on the players to make that call.

Re: QTs hits two pair on fairly uncoordinated, rainbow flop. capping g
 

FWIW

I think raise>limp>>>fold

Re: QTs hits two pair on fairly uncoordinated, rainbow flop. capping g
 

[ QUOTE ]
FWIW

I think raise?limp>>>fold

[/ QUOTE ]

bravos: ur taking that post too seriously. BASTARD is clearly the correct answer. But if you want a serious answer, I haven't met a lineup or limits/table conditions/opponents where this is a fold. The lineup that this is a fold in, you won't catch me playing.

Re: QTs hits two pair on fairly uncoordinated, rainbow flop. capping g
 

Is this 6Max or FR? I assumed it was FR when I said fold PF (and stand by that). If it's 6max, I don't fold.

Re: QTs hits two pair on fairly uncoordinated, rainbow flop. capping g
 

1. No such thing as UTG+1 in 6max.
2. This is a toss up between raise/call in FR.
3. Easy raise in most SH.

Re: QTs hits two pair on fairly uncoordinated, rainbow flop. capping g
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
FWIW

I think raise?limp>>>fold

[/ QUOTE ]

bravos: ur taking that post too seriously. BASTARD is clearly the correct answer. But if you want a serious answer, I haven't met a lineup or limits/table conditions/opponents where this is a fold. The lineup that this is a fold in, you won't catch me playing.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL..never mind, I misread/misunderstood your pic...

Re: QTs hits two pair on fairly uncoordinated, rainbow flop. capping g
 

there are so many replies in this thread, and yet OP hasn't answered this:

[ QUOTE ]

first tell us why you donked. what was your thought process? what were you trying to accomplish?


[/ QUOTE ]

too busy learning to reply, perhaps?

Re: QTs hits two pair on fairly uncoordinated, rainbow flop. capping g
 

I don't give SB credit for a set until he 3-bet's my Turn raise.

Re: QTs hits two pair on fairly uncoordinated, rainbow flop. capping g
 

i like the flop bet. CO's betting range on the flop when checked to is approximately equal to his raising range when donked.

and you don't want to let him check behind AK AJ 88 whatever. given that the pot is 5-way, this is a real possibility.

nice flop bet.

Re: QTs hits two pair on fairly uncoordinated, rainbow flop. capping g
 

It's just not that hard -- here's how you decide when to donk:
1. If the pf raiser is on your right and you want to build the pot (i.e. you have a very strong hand), donk. Thus if raiser raises this has the potential to get the most in the pot.
2. If the pf raiser is on your right and you want to protect your hand, do not donk. Check-raise.
3. If the pf raiser is on your left and you want to build the pot and you think pf raiser is likely to bet the flop, c/r. This will get the most money in the pot.
4. If pf raiser is on your left and you want to protect, you are usually out of luck as pot has become too big. You may have to wait for the turn.
5. If you think pf raiser is unlikely to bet the flop and you have a strong hand (from your reads), donk. This is independent of raisers' position.

Re: QTs hits two pair on fairly uncoordinated, rainbow flop. capping g
 

Thanks a bunch, CrMenace. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] That post helped a lot and makes total sense.

And thanks to everybody who offered polite and helpful comments on the hand. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I intentionally didn't include the turn and river because they made it very clear that I was ahead and I was mostly just curious what you folks thought of SB's check-3bet on the flop. But if you're curious about how the entire hand went...

The turn and river both blanked. On the turn, it was checked to me and I bet. Everybody called. On the river, it was checked to me again. I bet and got two callers (both of which were holding a queen). SB's check-3bet was with AQ, if you were wondering.