\"All in?\" asked as a question, not a statement - ruling?
 

2/5NL stacks irrelevant. After the river is dealt Player A bets 60.00, Player B raises to 200.00, Player A, says, "I'm all in", Player B responds "all in?" as a question, not a statement.

Ruling?

Re: \"All in?\" asked as a question, not a statement - ruling?
 

I say Player B just called.

The only reason I say that is, maybe he'll learn a lesson, and not allow the words "all-in" to come out of his mouth unless he wants to put all his chips in.

Rule this a call, and I'll bet the next time Player B is in this spot, he'll say something like, "Excuse me? I didn't quite hear you. Did you say that you were all-in?", or, "Is the action on me? Did he check or bet?"

Re: \"All in?\" asked as a question, not a statement - ruling?
 

[ QUOTE ]
2/5NL stacks irrelevant. After the river is dealt Player A bets 60.00, Player B raises to 200.00, Player A, says, "I'm all in", Player B responds "all in?" as a question, not a statement.

Ruling?

[/ QUOTE ]

He asked a question, h he should get an answer. He should also be more careful in how he asks the question as there are a lot of people out there that have no common sense and lack a basic understanding of poker rules and procedures.

Re: \"All in?\" asked as a question, not a statement - ruling?
 

Now that I'm through venting:

If no one has acted after Player B's incredibly poor choice of words, then the action is still on him.

If there's been action behind him--even if it's merely Player A tabling his hand--it's a little more complicated than that.

Re: \"All in?\" asked as a question, not a statement - ruling?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I say Player B just called.

The only reason I say that is, maybe he'll learn a lesson, and not allow the words "all-in" to come out of his mouth unless he wants to put all his chips in.

Rule this a call, and I'll bet the next time Player B is in this spot, he'll say something like, "Excuse me? I didn't quite hear you. Did you say that you were all-in?"

[/ QUOTE ]

In both examples, the words "all in" were spoken. What is the difference between the question "all in?" and the statement "did he say all in?" I rule that this was a question, and he should get an answer, he should not have to call here.

Re: \"All in?\" asked as a question, not a statement - ruling?
 

I agree. I don't think he's required to call. If there was action after him, thats a different story. But if you are paying attention, its pretty obvious that a question is different from a statement.

Re: \"All in?\" asked as a question, not a statement - ruling?
 

Reminds me of the WPT final table where the guy asks his opponent if he wants him to call or fold and says he will do whatever his opponent wants. After a countdown expires with no reply, the guy says "Ok. I'll make the call" meaning "I'll make the decision", but the floor rules that "I'll make the call" means he is calling the all-in bet.

Re: \"All in?\" asked as a question, not a statement - ruling?
 

Have the phrases "ARE YOU" , "IS HE", "DID HE" , "DID YOU", etc. been banned at poker tables?

I really wonder some times how often the "Check????" question is an angle.

Re: \"All in?\" asked as a question, not a statement - ruling?
 

Your title and opening post seem to indicate it was clear it was a question, so the answer would be fairly obvious, no?

Re: \"All in?\" asked as a question, not a statement - ruling?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I say Player B just called.

The only reason I say that is, maybe he'll learn a lesson, and not allow the words "all-in" to come out of his mouth unless he wants to put all his chips in.

Rule this a call, and I'll bet the next time Player B is in this spot, he'll say something like, "Excuse me? I didn't quite hear you. Did you say that you were all-in?", or, "Is the action on me? Did he check or bet?"

[/ QUOTE ]

So it's not a call, but we need to teach this player a lesson, so we're going to rule it a call? Glad I don't have you as a father.

Re: \"All in?\" asked as a question, not a statement - ruling?
 

[ QUOTE ]
In both examples, the words "all in" were spoken. What is the difference between the question "all in?" and the statement "did he say all in?"

[/ QUOTE ]

When you consider that the second phrase was a question also, not a statement, then not much.

Re: \"All in?\" asked as a question, not a statement - ruling?
 

Just another good reason to speak in complete sentances.

Re: \"All in?\" asked as a question, not a statement - ruling?
 

[ QUOTE ]
What is the difference between the question "all in?" and the statement "did he say all in?"

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe the fact that we are dealing with the spoken word, not the written word.
Maybe the fact that the statement "All in." and the question "All in?" are very close in the spoken word, while easily distinguishable in the written word.
Maybe the fact that I can say "All in" as a statement, but change my mind and argue that I was asking a question, and it is next to impossible for the dealer or floor to know the truth.

Happy Birthday Angus
 

Happy Birthday Angus [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: \"All in?\" asked as a question, not a statement - ruling?
 

I'm seeing this angle more and more frequently at my room, too.

"Check?"
"Bet?"
"Raise?"
"Call?"

And then there's the variable-volume version:

"did he CHECK?"
"you RAISE?"
"did she CALL?"

And my personal favorite:

"what-if-I-went ALL IN?"

Another related angle:

* 3/6 game
* flop action is complete
* turn is being brought
* guy with first action calls "six!" as the card is being brought
* dealer takes it as a bet
* after seeing reaction, guy objects: "no, I was just asking for a six!"

Lately, I've seen dealers all over the map on this bullsh*t move, too.


My view : it is the player's responsibility to keep their verbal actions clear and unambiguous, and anything short of that is done completely at the player's risk and should be called aggressively by the dealer (and the floor if necessary).

Unfortunately, proper enforcement on these angle-shots varies greatly from room-to-room (with many rooms ignoring them completely).

</.02>


q/q

Re: \"All in?\" asked as a question, not a statement - ruling?
 

[ QUOTE ]

Maybe the fact that I can say "All in" as a statement, but change my mind and argue that I was asking a question, and it is next to impossible for the dealer or floor to know the truth.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is the best reason why it should be treated as a call.

Re: \"All in?\" asked as a question, not a statement - ruling?
 

OT but if you are angle shooting for 1 BB in live 3/6 Limit, your life is pretty much a joke and you can have either SIXXXXXXXXX you want.

Re: \"All in?\" asked as a question, not a statement - ruling?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I say Player B just called.

The only reason I say that is, maybe he'll learn a lesson, and not allow the words "all-in" to come out of his mouth unless he wants to put all his chips in.

Rule this a call, and I'll bet the next time Player B is in this spot, he'll say something like, "Excuse me? I didn't quite hear you. Did you say that you were all-in?", or, "Is the action on me? Did he check or bet?"

[/ QUOTE ]

So it's not a call, but we need to teach this player a lesson, so we're going to rule it a call? Glad I don't have you as a father.

[/ QUOTE ]

And that's why you always leave a note.

Re: \"All in?\" asked as a question, not a statement - ruling?
 

So now we are going to let the floor decide intonation? No way, if you are going to ask a question you have to make some indication. There is no way that anyone can honestly tell the difference between "all-in?" or "all-in". Lets face it half the people in the cardrooms of america wouldn't be able to tell if it was in written form, let alone a tonal thing, don't even get me started about people who can't understand sarcasm.

Re: \"All in?\" asked as a question, not a statement - ruling?
 

[ QUOTE ]
What is the difference between the question "all in?" and the statement "did he say all in?"

[/ QUOTE ]

The second one will never make someone think, "That guy who said those words just moved all-in."

When it's your turn to act, your first words should not be "call, raise, fold, etc" unless that's what you want to do. Everyone at the table is expecting you to announce your action. If you're going to say anything that is NOT your intended action, you should make sure that you don't say something that could be mistakenly interpreted as your intended action.

Or you could keep saying things like "All-in?". You can keep bringing the game to a halt while we argue about what to do, and you can hope that a floorman doesn't rule that you have to push all your chips in when you don't want to.

Re: \"All in?\" asked as a question, not a statement - ruling?
 

YTF - Do you seriously rule this a call?
I see this happen at least once or twice almost every time I play live NL.
Surely you must run into this multiple times practically every day.
People just too lazy to say "Is he?" before they say "all-in?" and have seemingly no clue that their question could be cause for some confusion.

This stuff annoys the crap out of me but it's usually done innocently by people who just don't know any better and aren't thinking.
I have yet to see it done where I thought it was an angle-shoot.

ruling? moron-yes
 

Well if you like to play with your lighter while you're pumping gas, don't be surprised when things blow up in your face. Same deal here, the player would be at the mercy of the floor, and of course the player who holds the nuts and will try to make the all-in a reality by throwing a hissy and swaying the floor's decision. Maybe not being such an idiot is in order for a change. Maybe not trying to find every single last possible shade of grey for every single possible rule and ruling is the new order of the day. But I doubt it. With the dumbing down of america comes texas hold'em, and if this dumb **** winds up getting declared all-in, tough. The ruling should go towards the principle of obvious intent, but often it won't, and I'll offer no comfort for them (other than a KITN).

Re: \"All in?\" asked as a question, not a statement - ruling?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What is the difference between the question "all in?" and the statement "did he say all in?"

[/ QUOTE ]

The second one will never make someone think, "That guy who said those words just moved all-in."

When it's your turn to act, your first words should not be "call, raise, fold, etc" unless that's what you want to do. Everyone at the table is expecting you to announce your action. If you're going to say anything that is NOT your intended action, you should make sure that you don't say something that could be mistakenly interpreted as your intended action.

Or you could keep saying things like "All-in?". You can keep bringing the game to a halt while we argue about what to do, and you can hope that a floorman doesn't rule that you have to push all your chips in when you don't want to.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, but if it is clear to everyone that this was not action and you were asking a question it would be wrong to treat it like action.

Re: \"All in?\" asked as a question, not a statement - ruling?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Just another good reason to speak in complete sentances.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: \"All in?\" asked as a question, not a statement - ruling?
 

[ QUOTE ]
YTF - Do you seriously rule this a call?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not if I can help it. But it's a cruel world, and sometimes I CAN'T help it.

This is a case where, as RR likes to say, there are so many variables that could be in play that we're not hearing about, that we can't be expected to make a reasonable ruling. How did everyone react to the idiot's "All=in???" That's important. Did it prompt out-of-turn action?, etc. We kneed to know these things.

Re: \"All in?\" asked as a question, not a statement - ruling?
 

[ QUOTE ]
2/5NL stacks irrelevant. After the river is dealt Player A bets 60.00, Player B raises to 200.00, Player A, says, "I'm all in", Player B responds "all in?" as a question, not a statement.

Ruling?

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's pretend this happened in LA. As a floor it isn't easy to verify the facts (i.e., intonation; meaning of the declaration) in a city where just about every known language is spoken and the poker floor is a virtual powder keg.

If I could verify the facts as stated in the OP I'd rule it as action on Player B. But the reality is by the time any floor would be called he would be facing a nightmare of confusion and conflicting testimony.

Players need to be more careful. If you aren't sure of the action call time and ask the dealer "What is the action?". Avoid saying the words "bet" or "check" or questioning the action (i.e., "All in?"); such words are easily confused with actual action in a noisy, chaotic cardroom.

~ Rick

Re: \"All in?\" asked as a question, not a statement - ruling?
 

[ QUOTE ]
2/5NL stacks irrelevant. After the river is dealt Player A bets 60.00, Player B raises to 200.00, Player A, says, "I'm all in", Player B responds "all in?" as a question, not a statement.

Ruling?

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's see, in OP he knows it's a question. He even states that along with another 3 words: "Not a statement."

I think for player A to say B is declaring an action, and should be held to it, is an angle shot.

This really isn't that hard.

b

Re: \"All in?\" asked as a question, not a statement - ruling?
 

Everyone who said they'd rule this a call is a retarded idiot. That is all.

Re: \"All in?\" asked as a question, not a statement - ruling?
 

best practice for players

"dealer, what was the action in front of me?"
or
"what was the previous player's bet?
or
"what did he say?"
or
"what was his wager?"

asks the question w/o using the words "all in" and thereby avoids the issue.

Re: \"All in?\" asked as a question, not a statement - ruling?
 

[ QUOTE ]
such words are easily confused with actual action in a noisy, chaotic cardroom.

[/ QUOTE ]

Never been to Cali but I bet this sums up all the differences in Cali and Midwest Poker. Even on a busy riday night, you could Nap comfortably in Caesar's IN's poker room, if you had a place to lay down.

Midwest cardrooms are usually quiet unless something unusual occurs.

Re: \"All in?\" asked as a question, not a statement - ruling?
 

I once was playing and after I open raised, another player 3 bet it. Folded around to me, I say,"It must be a race." as I toss out the extra bet. The dealer made me cap it; I called floor, who backed the decision of the dealer.

It was cheap lesson that you must be carefull what others may percieve what you are saying. In retrospect, I can see the point of the dealer, but that's just me.

Re: \"All in?\" asked as a question, not a statement - ruling?
 

I assume everyone would make the call binding if Player A instatabled the nuts?

Re: \"All in?\" asked as a question, not a statement - ruling?
 

if i said, "all in?" in a questioning manner and was forced to call i wouldn't be upset. people definately angle and if i was in the hand i wouldn't force the person to call if i didn't think they were angling. people should be careful though, because if you say all in you're at the mercy of the floor.

Re: \"All in?\" asked as a question, not a statement - ruling?
 

Most players say "call" in Player B's position so it is highly likely that this was a question, especially if it sounded like one. From what you describe, I would support Player B if the floor came over.

If the floor ruled the Player B called, then I'd be happy internally that I don't use such ambiguous language as to have a ruling against me at a very bad time.

Re: \"All in?\" asked as a question, not a statement - ruling?
 

I have seen a lot of people use this as an angle. One of the poker rooms I go to in Southern California started the all-in, chips and checks must be a visible motion.

Re: \"All in?\" asked as a question, not a statement - ruling?
 

Another situation I have never seen occur at an electronic poker table.

Re: \"All in?\" asked as a question, not a statement - ruling?
 

Anyone who says "All in" or "Call" or "Check" in a no limit or game (or in a pot limit game, adding "Pot" to the list) when it’s their turn to act, gets to have this be their action. I don't care if they say it was a question or not.

Hell, I don't know how it is where the rest of you play, but in Northern California, half the players speak English as a second language, and expecting them to distinguish that the words constitute a question rather than an action is not reasonable.

Verbal actions are binding. If a player is going to say something that can easily be misconstrued as an action, then he has no one to blame, other than himself. If they want to question what the action is, use complete sentences. It’s not like they’re sending a text message here. Adding the words “Did he …” or “Did he say …” in front is not that hard.

Re: \"All in?\" asked as a question, not a statement - ruling?
 

If the only word(s) out of your mouth is a valid poker action, i.e. "bet" "call" "all-in" "check" you'd better be prepared for that action to stand no matter what punctuation marks you claim to have been putting behind it.

You can always ask for a ruling, but the floor will back the dealer most times in such a situation.

Here's how it will play out:

Dealer: "Floor to table 19,217!"

*Floor walks over 30 seconds later after ending his very important conversation with the cocktail girl. All the while the dealer is listening to 9 peoples recounts of "he said she said you did this no i didn't i did that"*

*Floorman arrives*
Dealer: On his action this gentleman here *open hand gesture* said "all in". This player here with the action to him then said "All-in."

*About here is when player B cuts in with "I was asking if he said all in! Not moving all in!" Players minorly bicker for 10 seconds about who said and did what again.*

Floorman: "Verbal declarations of action in turn are binding. The words 'All-In' constitute a legal binding poker action.
Player: "But I was asking!"
Floorman: "The chips must to go in the pot. The words 'All-In' constitute a legal binding poker action."
Player: "I was asking if he moved all in!"
Floorman: "The words 'All-In' constitute a legal binding poker action in turn."

*Repeat 14 times. Floorman finally tells players to turn hands up and the dealer to run it out. Dealer does so. Player B of course sucks out on the river and scoops the pot.*

Re: \"All in?\" asked as a question, not a statement - ruling?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If the only word(s) out of your mouth is a valid poker action, i.e. "bet" "call" "all-in" "check" you'd better be prepared for that action to stand no matter what punctuation marks you claim to have been putting behind it.

You can always ask for a ruling, but the floor will back the dealer most times in such a situation.

Here's how it will play out:

Dealer: "Floor to table 19,217!"

*Floor walks over 30 seconds later after ending his very important conversation with the cocktail girl. All the while the dealer is listening to 9 peoples recounts of "he said she said you did this no i didn't i did that"*

*Floorman arrives*
Dealer: On his action this gentleman here *open hand gesture* said "all in". This player here with the action to him then said "All-in."

*About here is when player B cuts in with "I was asking if he said all in! Not moving all in!" Players minorly bicker for 10 seconds about who said and did what again.*

Floorman: "Verbal declarations of action in turn are binding. The words 'All-In' constitute a legal binding poker action.
Player: "But I was asking!"
Floorman: "The chips must to go in the pot. The words 'All-In' constitute a legal binding poker action."
Player: "I was asking if he moved all in!"
Floorman: "The words 'All-In' constitute a legal binding poker action in turn."

*Repeat 14 times. Floorman finally tells players to turn hands up and the dealer to run it out. Dealer does so. Player B of course sucks out on the river and scoops the pot.*


[/ QUOTE ]

It will play out this way with an inexperienced floorman. In the context it is clear that it was a question (see the title). Anytime someone can say "he meant to do x, but has to do Y" something has gone horribly wrong; if everyone at the table can tell a player meant to do X not only can he do X, he must do X.

Re: \"All in?\" asked as a question, not a statement - ruling?
 

Just an awful awful ruling. Awful. I'd refuse to call there preferring to get 86d