KJs river flush vs Leatherass
 

villian is leatherass very solid... my image is probably taggish around 21/18...My question is simply this.
Is there any merit to shoving this river?
IMO he snap folds big Aces and sets ( which would make a great bluff by me w/o a flush)... and lower flushes are very unlikely.. Anyways I wont go into my thoughts anymore.. what are yours?

Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $3/$6 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

SB: $1,527.30
BB: $539.00
UTG: $456.00
MP: $237.30
CO: $894.80
Hero (BTN): $856.50

Preflop: Hero is dealt J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6 Players)
UTG calls $6.00, MP folds, <font color="red">CO raises to $30.00</font>, Hero calls $30.00, SB folds, BB calls $24.00, UTG calls $24.00

Flop: ($123) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 Players)
BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="red">CO bets $95.00</font>, Hero calls $95.00, 2 folds

Turn: ($313) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
CO checks, Hero checks

River: ($313) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">CO bets $200.00</font>,

Re: KJs river flush vs Leatherass
 

I have 513$ behind he covers

Re: KJs river flush vs Leatherass
 

wtf how is this even a question

Re: KJs river flush vs Leatherass
 

holy hell shove

Re: KJs river flush vs Leatherass
 

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wtf how is this even a question

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Im not a moron..this was my first thought as well.. but what is he going to call w/ on this river if I shove?

Re: KJs river flush vs Leatherass
 

you need to retool your game if you aren't shoving here, simple as that.

Re: KJs river flush vs Leatherass
 

it doesnt matter what hell call u with u have the second nuts, ur argument makes a little more sense if u had like 3 4 ss

Re: KJs river flush vs Leatherass
 

hi recallme

Re: KJs river flush vs Leatherass
 

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hi recallme

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lol

Re: KJs river flush vs Leatherass
 

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it doesnt matter what hell call u with u have the second nuts, ur argument makes a little more sense if u had like 3 4 ss

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first off.. this thinking imo is really bad.. it 100% matters what he is going to call w/..

I am going to try to explain myself a little better.
I have 500$ behind on the river
Leather is very solid capable of making big laydowns
He is neveer calling a river shove w/ less than a flush
A Qhi flush is not possible b/c of the board and my hand
highest flush possible for him is 8s7s which he may not have even bet the flop..
And finally he may even fold a small flush to a shove b/c of the strength of a river shove here.

Re: KJs river flush vs Leatherass
 

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hi recallme

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lol

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Re: KJs river flush vs Leatherass
 

If you're not gonna get the money in when you make the 2nd nut flush, then just fold the flop.

Re: KJs river flush vs Leatherass
 

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you need to retool your game if you aren't shoving here, simple as that.

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if your game is so transparent that he can fold low-medium flushes here then you really do. also, calling here just destroys your metagame and youll have a really hard time bluffing in the future.

Re: KJs river flush vs Leatherass
 

I was just discussing this with ur friend and i agree now it seems like raise/fold to a shove.

Re: KJs river flush vs Leatherass
 

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you need to retool your game if you aren't shoving here, simple as that.

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if your game is so transparent that he can fold a pair of dueces here then you really do. also, calling here just destroys your metagame and youll have a really hard time bluffing in the future.

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Re: KJs river flush vs Leatherass
 

my head hurts

Re: KJs river flush vs Leatherass
 

I'm a friend of Jamie217 and this thread annoys me, because it gives me the impression 2+2ers are for the most part robots, who are not willing to stop and give some things a bit more thought, but instead give standard, 'no-brainer' lines.

Normally I shouldn't be mad about this, but when you give thrash advice in a cocky, authoritative, patronising manner it looks ridiculous.

The points made in Jamies last post were actually mine. Leatherass is capable of good laydowns. His calling range when we push the river are only flushes. The highest flush that we beat here is 8s7s, since it's impossible for him to have Q high flush given the cards here (we exclude A,K,J,T,9), so what can he have, Q8s? I don't think so. He's very capable of folding a small flush here. Also he doesn't always bet the flop with small flushes since the Ace there is very likely to hit someone. Axs is definitely a part of his range, because it's congruent with how he played.

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If you're not gonna get the money in when you make the 2nd nut flush, then just fold the flop.

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Ridiculous. Yeah, lets abstract from reads, timing, turn and river action, pot size, ranges etc etc. Lets base our decision on a flop call. In fact we should actually go back a bit more and fold pre-flop just because we played this hand conservatively when we hit. Yeah, lets leave the game, because we're making reads instead of acting like robots.

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if your game is so transparent that he can fold low-medium flushes

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If your river raise isn't transparent to a very good, thinking player that means you're playing crazy. Seriously. What kind of range can you put a guy on when he pushes river, besides a flush? A bluff? Come on.

I'm not saying a call is best. In fact I didn't give half of my thoughts on this hand. My point is this hand isn't obvious stuff and that's why Jamie217 posted it. At least give these ideas some thought, before you berate my friend. At least try.

Re: KJs river flush vs Leatherass
 

you are scared money

Re: KJs river flush vs Leatherass
 

lol at this thread

Re: KJs river flush vs Leatherass
 

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If your river raise isn't transparent to a very good, thinking player that means you're playing crazy. Seriously. What kind of range can you put a guy on when he pushes river, besides a flush? A bluff? Come on.

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'LOL'

Re: KJs river flush vs Leatherass
 

So much for that. When I go on a rant on how people are disrepectful when they are not backing it up with any arguments and I get an immediate post by a mod who gives a beautifully detailed 'LOL' you know it's futile. Wtf is this?

Re: KJs river flush vs Leatherass
 

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So much for that. When I go on a rant on how people are disrepectful when they are not backing it up with any arguments and I get an immediate post by a mod who gives a beautifully detailed 'LOL' you know it's futile. Wtf is this?

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This is the MSNL forum. When people make posts that make it clear that they just aren't at all familiar with the games they are commented on and still maintain a tone of knowing what they are talking about, it's not my job to be nice to those people. It's my job to make sure that everyone realizes that what I quoted was ridiculous and shouldn't be followed as advice.

Re: KJs river flush vs Leatherass
 

xorb is right as usual.

Re: KJs river flush vs Leatherass
 

Xorbie are you kidding me?
Tomson would absoultly destroy you ... you cannot even beat 400nl and you are telling someone who clearly understands the game better than yourself that he has no clue what hes talking about. And you have responded to this thread without an ounce of thought to the hand just like everyone else. All everyone is saying is omg wtf shove.. can you take a look at hand ranges and [censored] like that at all??
Im glad I dont post my hands on 2p2 more often if this is how all of the mods and "respected" posters are like

Re: KJs river flush vs Leatherass
 

I used to care about what people said, now these things just crack me up.

Re: KJs river flush vs Leatherass
 

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So much for that. When I go on a rant on how people are disrepectful when they are not backing it up with any arguments and I get an immediate post by a mod who gives a beautifully detailed 'LOL' you know it's futile. Wtf is this?

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This is the MSNL forum. When people make posts that make it clear that they just aren't at all familiar with the games they are commented on and still maintain a tone of knowing what they are talking about, it's not my job to be nice to those people. It's my job to make sure that everyone realizes that what I quoted was ridiculous and shouldn't be followed as advice.

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Oh, excuse me. I thought a mods job was to keep this place civilized. Must be a tough thing to do when he himself acts like a jerk.

I was also under the impression that a mods job wasn't to be an authority in hand discussion. Otherwise I'd expect people like cts to be the ones in charge. Guess I was wrong.

For what it's worth I'm familiar with the games and I'm loosely familiar with villain. I don't think you're familiar with my game at all.

Re: KJs river flush vs Leatherass
 

msnl is seriously ridiculous nowadays. how do people get off saying stuff like this?

Re: KJs river flush vs Leatherass
 

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I used to care about what people said, now these things just crack me up.

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yeah seriously laughing out loud right now

Re: KJs river flush vs Leatherass
 

what the [censored]

Re: KJs river flush vs Leatherass
 

edit: i think im being mean

Re: KJs river flush vs Leatherass
 

this thread astonishes me, and the posters here need to think a little outside their own worlds and have an open mind about every situation they encounter. my guess would be that is why most of you are stuck in mid stakes, because you are stuck in paradigms preventing you from improving past a certain level.

i think its really close between raise and call given the texture of the board, but i suspect call is the correct play given your opponent.

i dont think when you raise youre getting called by a worse hand &gt;50% of the time by leatherass given the action.

this is only raisable if you are almost certain hes not folding 78ss, which i think is a fairly easy fold to this raise.

it gets a little interesting if you think from his perspective on how youre playing things like Axss on the flop and if he thinks youre semibluffing hands like this every time then maybe hes more likely to call with the smaller flushes.

but still, i think he folds them enough and folds sets enough to make this a flat call.

Re: KJs river flush vs Leatherass
 

Good god. If you flat here, fold the [censored] flop.

Re: KJs river flush vs Leatherass
 

and mrtea, cts saying raise doesnt mean much, considering his image and how people play against him are far different than jamie's and how someone as tight/solid as leatherass is playing vs him, combined with the board texture

Re: KJs river flush vs Leatherass
 

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[ QUOTE ]
So much for that. When I go on a rant on how people are disrepectful when they are not backing it up with any arguments and I get an immediate post by a mod who gives a beautifully detailed 'LOL' you know it's futile. Wtf is this?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the MSNL forum. When people make posts that make it clear that they just aren't at all familiar with the games they are commented on and still maintain a tone of knowing what they are talking about, it's not my job to be nice to those people. It's my job to make sure that everyone realizes that what I quoted was ridiculous and shouldn't be followed as advice.

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why are you a mod?

Re: KJs river flush vs Leatherass
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So much for that. When I go on a rant on how people are disrepectful when they are not backing it up with any arguments and I get an immediate post by a mod who gives a beautifully detailed 'LOL' you know it's futile. Wtf is this?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the MSNL forum. When people make posts that make it clear that they just aren't at all familiar with the games they are commented on and still maintain a tone of knowing what they are talking about, it's not my job to be nice to those people. It's my job to make sure that everyone realizes that what I quoted was ridiculous and shouldn't be followed as advice.

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why are you a mod?

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"It's my job to make sure that everyone realizes that what I quoted was ridiculous and shouldn't be followed as advice."

Re: KJs river flush vs Leatherass
 

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but still, i think he folds them enough and folds sets enough to make this a flat call.


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i just can't understand this. do you realize we only need to get called 51% of the time when good to make this shove +EV? for every time he calls with Ax[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] he only needs to call once with any other hand whatsoever. anything at all. AT. TT. 45[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. 56[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. 67:spade. 87[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].

the other thing that should be immeediatly clear is that if you can't even shove this river for value you should be bluff shoving with much, much, much higher frequency and moreover the flop/turn play is just horrible because you are clearly better off playing the hand in a more agressive fashion.

Re: KJs river flush vs Leatherass
 

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Good god. If you flat here, fold the [censored] flop.

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This has already been addressed in Tomsons post...

Re: KJs river flush vs Leatherass
 

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if cts says shove i think you should apologize to everyone for having to read this [censored]

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First of all, I didn't say shoving is bad. I personally believe min-raise and fold to shove is very nice.

Secondly, I don't owe anyone an apology no matter what cts says. I'm expressing my opinion, I expect a lot of good players to differ. As long as it's in a respectful tone I have no problem with that. I can understand playful too.

But people here are extremely disrespectful and give no effort to explain their thought process. When I point that out and kindly ask to at least try and a mod quotes my post and gives a 'LOL' and then tells me I'm clueless with no effort at all you can see somethings wrong here.

It's a disgrace.

Re: KJs river flush vs Leatherass
 

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this thread astonishes me, and the posters here need to think a little outside their own worlds and have an open mind about every situation they encounter. my guess would be that is why most of you are stuck in mid stakes, because you are stuck in paradigms preventing you from improving past a certain level.

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I think it's a little unfair you say this considering before you won a big tournament and were fortunate enough to win a contest to be TC's protege you were just a midstakes player.

Re: KJs river flush vs Leatherass
 

in before lock