Honor Systems
 

I live in Berlin, which uses a modified Honor System for its excellent public transportation system. You buy a ticket, you stamp it in the machine (to show when you started your journey) and you get on the train/bus/tram. There are no turnstiles, there are no ticket takers. Many U-Bahn (subway)stations won't have any employees around at all. There are roving inspectors, but very few and you can often spot them in advance (big butch women with crappy haircuts and black windbreakers). Even though it's very easy to get away with not paying, most people still pay.

A ticket across town cost 2.10, and the fine for getting caught without one is 40 Euros. Since you are likely to go a lot more than 20 rides without being asked for a ticket, riding without one is clearly +$EV. However, there are other considerations.

I've noticed that riding without a ticket turns me into a nervous wreck. I don't know whether it's guilt over scamming the Honor System or worry over getting caught. Whatever it is, I've decided that saving 2.10 on the infrequent times I ride public transport (I usually take my bike everywhere) just isn't worth the hassle. I'd rather pay the money and read my book in peace than save the money and stress out.

Do any of you have experiences with other Honor Systems on such a large scale?
Or can you think of situations in which a large scale Honor System might work?

What do you think the primary motive is for people who decide to play by the rules?
Would large-scale Honor Systems work in cultures that don't have a long history of obeying the law/following the rules?

Re: Honor Systems
 

There is a relatively famous Honor Code at Princeton University for all papers and exams. There is no policing: no proctors or teachers in the room while taking exams, many exams are take-home (even if they are timed exams and/or closed book - you are on your honor not to take more than the allotted time and not to use prohibited materials).

Once, instead of turning in a final exam, I accidentally put it in my backpack and took it home. The next day, I opened my backpack and, to my surprise, saw the exam there. I immediately wrote to my professor saying what had happened. He told me to bring the exam to his office. I went and he asked me if I had completed it on time without using any books, completely in the manner that was appropriate. I said I had. He made me sign the honor code again in his presence and then took the exam and graded it.

Of course there is cheating at Princeton, but I don't think it's any worse than anywhere else. And the fact that you can take your exams in such freedom and people can assign takehomes and stuff makes everything so much nicer. It's not like a police state and you're not like a prisoner. It's a place to learn and you're a valued student. I think that 99% of the people really value the honor code (even those who might cheat it once or twice) and therefore people don't rampantly cheat because they know that would cause it to go away.

Re: Honor Systems
 

http://www.crazy4cinema.com/Review/F...s/clerks03.jpg

"How do you know they're taking the right amount of change? Or even paying for what they take?"

"Theoretically, people see money on the counter and nobody around, they think they're being watched."

"Honesty through paranoia...why do you smell like shoe polish?"

Re: Honor Systems
 

When an actor does a commercial under the Screen Actors Guild collective bargaining agreement, they're due certain payments based on how the commercial is used. There's no monitoring system or third-party entity that controls these payments, basically the advertiser/advertising agency tells their payment company "Hey, we used this commercial" and the payment company sends a check to the actor.

As you might imagine, this system is rife with abuse/sloppiness. Unless the use is high-profile or somebody in the actors family happens to see it or something, most of the time the actor won't even know that the commercial was used. For instance, the actor is due a certain amount of money if the commercial is used in Poland. Unless the actor is Polish, how would they ever know that the use occurred?

Depending on the situation, the penalties for not paying for use are generally light. Under some circumstances there's an arbitration system that sucks ass, takes a year, and still imposes light penalties.

So, I can tell you that in a system where we're dealing with for-profit corporations that are used to cutting corners and bending the rules to get what they want, the system totally doesn't work. It also encourages/allows the presence of total idiocy - why have intelligent people in the positions responsible for making these payments when it really doesn't matter anyway?

I think the companies that at least always try to make the correct payments and to make amends when they don't are just generally fair, honest folk. Also, like in your public transportation example, getting caught cheating once or twice isn't a big deal, but I bet if you got busted 10 times they'd try and bar you from the system or something. Similarly, if it could be demonstrated that Anheuser-Busch, for instance, had a policy of not following the SAG contract, at some point they'd be excluded from it. Or so you'd think!

As an actors' representative, the only recourse I really have when they ignore the contract is to wait for the situations where I've absolutely got somebody dead-to-rights and make their life really, really, unpleasant so that they'll overpay to make me go away, and hopefully think twice about ignoring the contract next time.

Re: Honor Systems
 

That sounds like a really messed up system. I agree that corporations can be expected to never abide by an Honor System if not doing so is +$EV. Falls into line with the mindset that doesn't recall a defective product if the cost of the recall is greater than the cost of lawsuits by people they killed or maimed. They are in the business of turning a profit and can be expected to maximize that profit regardless of the effect on others.

I wonder if your royalty system would be crap even if no corporations were involved. Many individuals would have no problem scamming "the system" (as in the case of filesharing, et al), but might hesitate if the people they cheated were ones they actually knew and had hired to make a commerical. I'm guessing there'd be a sharp divide between those who always paid and those who never did.

Re: Honor Systems
 

I'm always amazed at how easily poker players will transfer thousands of dollars on the honor system. I've done a few transfers, but only where the other person sent first.

Re: Honor Systems
 

I'm doing 2+2 fantasy football on the honor system.

I've also organized and kept money for a 2+2 fantasy basketball league with bad results. At the end of the season I was unable to pay the winners immediately because 90% of my assets were frozen in Neteller at the time. I felt terrible. It was only $25 buyin so the money meant pretty much nothing but I still felt horrible. I've paid everyone by now of course, but I wouldn't be surprised if non of them trust me again.

Re: Honor Systems
 

Oh yea, durrrr wanted to know where to pay his $5K HSNL tourney entry. I posted my screen name and said to send it there (despite not being involved in any way) and the next day I had $5K in my account. Easiest scam I ever ran. Yay poker players!

Re: Honor Systems
 

People have been bred for tens of thousands of years to behave this way, because social life is essentially like a long iterated prisoner's dilemma. The correct strategy is Tit for Tat, or basically, always cooperate unless someone screws you over. Even if you rationally believe that cheating somebody it +EV, you have to ask, "+EV over what time frame?" Cheating as a general strategy is almost always -EV in the long run. Evolution cares about the long run, even if human beings, constrained by time preference, care more about the short run. Human beings generally do not cheat for the same reasons that squirrells gather and bury food months before the winter; in general it's good for them in the long run, even if they can't articulate why.

Humans evolved in small groups where antisocial behavior was easily spotted and the consequences of it were dire (death or expulsion, either one of which vastly reduces the likelihood of passing your antisocial genes on to the next generation). Just as people have bred dogs to be friendly and companionable, so too have they bred themselves to the same end. In effect humans, via evolution, have domesticated themselves.

Re: Honor Systems
 

most violated honor system?

I nominate porn website enter/exit age verification links

Re: Honor Systems
 

banging strangers is a huge honor system

Re: Honor Systems
 

I experienced that sort of system recently in San Jose with their streetcars. My girlfriend rode it for 4 days straight at least twice a day and never got her tickets checked. I rode it a handful of times as well and never had mine checked either. We both bought tickets every time though.

I think a big factor in having something like this work is to have the people who use it be caring enough to feel that their non-compliance will have a negative impact on the system.

Re: Honor Systems
 

[ QUOTE ]

There is a relatively famous Honor Code at Princeton University for all papers and exams. There is no policing: no proctors or teachers in the room while taking exams, many exams are take-home (even if they are timed exams and/or closed book - you are on your honor not to take more than the allotted time and not to use prohibited materials).

Once, instead of turning in a final exam, I accidentally put it in my backpack and took it home. The next day, I opened my backpack and, to my surprise, saw the exam there. I immediately wrote to my professor saying what had happened. He told me to bring the exam to his office. I went and he asked me if I had completed it on time without using any books, completely in the manner that was appropriate. I said I had. He made me sign the honor code again in his presence and then took the exam and graded it.

Of course there is cheating at Princeton, but I don't think it's any worse than anywhere else. And the fact that you can take your exams in such freedom and people can assign takehomes and stuff makes everything so much nicer. It's not like a police state and you're not like a prisoner. It's a place to learn and you're a valued student. I think that 99% of the people really value the honor code (even those who might cheat it once or twice) and therefore people don't rampantly cheat because they know that would cause it to go away.

[/ QUOTE ]

To be fair though to get into Princeton you have to go through a fairly rigorous selection process. You already have a much higher percentage of intelligent hard working kids who take pride in what they do by the time they get into that school.

Re: Honor Systems
 

The very first stock market, formed for the trading of shares of the Dutch East India Company, had absolutely no recourse to the Dutch courts to enforce contracts, because the Dutch government viewed the stock market as a form of gambling, and thus immoral and not worthy of government protection of contract.

Nevertheless, even in the complete absence of any enforcement mechanism whatsoever, debts were scrupulously paid, even if the debtor had to sell all his worldly goods and take years to pay off the debts. Anyone who did not want to pay these debts could simply "Appeal to Frederick", and have the debt legally absolved (because the contract was never legal in the first place); but nobody did. The consequences for anyone who did would have been dire indeed, and they came through neither government enforcement nor threat of private violence, but rather purely from economic ostracism. Anyone who did not meet their stock market obligations would be run out of the market as a "lame duck", and no one would extend them "credit" again (not just in the modern sense of credit, but in the original as well, as in "credibility").

The stock market grew and thrived and prospered under this enforcement-free regime for well over 100 years.

Most of the world actually operates on the "honor system". Think of the millions of empty houses across America during the working day. Little prevents burglars from breaking in and looting, and many of course do. But the very fact that this is rare indicates that the vast majority of people would rather spend their time laboring to produce than looting and cheating.

I've given a lot of thought to this topic. I have some other thoughts I think are interesting about con men, the inefficiency of private cheating, and (obviously) institutionalizing cheating (the state).

Re: Honor Systems
 

Interestingly enough, though, that fact doesn't surface along several other dimensions. Princeton kids still get into fights, and steal things from liquor stores, and serve alcohol to minors, and rape other students, and are racist and sexist and all that other stupid stuff kids are/do. I agree with your point, but I think that the way the Honor Code is constructured and that fact that the Honor Code is a long-standing institution at Princeton which is a very important part of the culture really makes a big difference even for kids who normally would not care about an honor system. I guarantee people at Princeton would ride the subway without a ticket just as often as anyone else would, for example.

Re: Honor Systems
 

[ QUOTE ]
Oh yea, durrrr wanted to know where to pay his $5K HSNL tourney entry. I posted my screen name and said to send it there (despite not being involved in any way) and the next day I had $5K in my account. Easiest scam I ever ran. Yay poker players!

[/ QUOTE ]

you probably needed the money too

Re: Honor Systems
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Oh yea, durrrr wanted to know where to pay his $5K HSNL tourney entry. I posted my screen name and said to send it there (despite not being involved in any way) and the next day I had $5K in my account. Easiest scam I ever ran. Yay poker players!

[/ QUOTE ]

you probably needed the money too

[/ QUOTE ]
Who doesn't need $5K for 5 seconds of work?

Re: Honor Systems
 

[ QUOTE ]
You buy a ticket, you stamp it in the machine (to show when you started your journey) and you get on the train/bus/tram.

[/ QUOTE ]

I never knew this the first time I went and just bought a ticket like all other cities I've been to. I was pretty surprised when a German guy (no uniform or anything) came up to the four of us and asked to see our tickets. We showed him and he forced us off at the next stop and charged us 100 euro as a 'deal'. Apparently the stamping of the ticket is the crucial element of the system...

Seemed easy to not only avoid tickets but also to scam money off dumb tourists who didn't know you had to stamp them.

Re: Honor Systems
 

twp aren't you back to working yet? did you go to princeton? i'm pretty sure your whole first post in this thread was just a brag that you went to princeton, although i did find it very interesting.

Re: Honor Systems
 

Oh please. Everyone knows I went to Princeton, already. Maybe they didn't know I graduated with honors, though?

Re: Honor Systems
 

[ QUOTE ]
banging strangers is a huge honor system

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah one night stands are pretty scary if you think about it.

i mean... if a chick ever looked in my fridge and saw the body parts... boy would i be in trouble...

Re: Honor Systems
 

Going to the movies is pretty much honor system. It's pretty easy to go to several movies, see a sold out movie by buying tickets to something else, smuggle people in using ticket stubs, etc. My friend used to go to the credit card machine and buy kids tickets.

Re: Honor Systems
 

I traveled in germany last summer, didn't stamp my ticket. In the beginning I didn't know, after I just continued... I'm all for honor systems and doing the right thing in most situations, that being said, I still cut a lot of corners. I'm pretty sure everyone is like this, I'm pretty sure this "mixed strategy" is probably the best EV strategy if you were going to look at it that way. I've had honors system exams and never cheated, trying to think of other honor systems that I've either ignored or obeyed...

Re: Honor Systems
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You buy a ticket, you stamp it in the machine (to show when you started your journey) and you get on the train/bus/tram.

[/ QUOTE ]

I never knew this the first time I went and just bought a ticket like all other cities I've been to. I was pretty surprised when a German guy (no uniform or anything) came up to the four of us and asked to see our tickets. We showed him and he forced us off at the next stop and charged us 100 euro as a 'deal'. Apparently the stamping of the ticket is the crucial element of the system...

Seemed easy to not only avoid tickets but also to scam money off dumb tourists who didn't know you had to stamp them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Did he have a badge? If not, you did get scammed.

Re: Honor Systems
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You buy a ticket, you stamp it in the machine (to show when you started your journey) and you get on the train/bus/tram.

[/ QUOTE ]

I never knew this the first time I went and just bought a ticket like all other cities I've been to. I was pretty surprised when a German guy (no uniform or anything) came up to the four of us and asked to see our tickets. We showed him and he forced us off at the next stop and charged us 100 euro as a 'deal'. Apparently the stamping of the ticket is the crucial element of the system...

Seemed easy to not only avoid tickets but also to scam money off dumb tourists who didn't know you had to stamp them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Did he have a badge? Either way, you got scammed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Honor Systems
 

[ QUOTE ]
People have been bred for tens of thousands of years to behave this way, because social life is essentially like a long iterated prisoner's dilemma. The correct strategy is Tit for Tat, or basically, always cooperate unless someone screws you over. Even if you rationally believe that cheating somebody it +EV, you have to ask, "+EV over what time frame?" Cheating as a general strategy is almost always -EV in the long run. Evolution cares about the long run, even if human beings, constrained by time preference, care more about the short run. Human beings generally do not cheat for the same reasons that squirrells gather and bury food months before the winter; in general it's good for them in the long run, even if they can't articulate why.

Humans evolved in small groups where antisocial behavior was easily spotted and the consequences of it were dire (death or expulsion, either one of which vastly reduces the likelihood of passing your antisocial genes on to the next generation). Just as people have bred dogs to be friendly and companionable, so too have they bred themselves to the same end. In effect humans, via evolution, have domesticated themselves.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really liked this explanation.

Plus, it gave me the mental image of the psychiatrist from the Sopranos trying to get a squirrel to examine his deep-seated compulsion to bury nuts.

Re: Honor Systems
 

The honor code is very important to Caltech culture. Although there is still cheating, it's pretty rare. The fact that there is so much trust among members of the caltech community is nice cuz you can do things like take home tests, leave your door unlocked, have access to any building on campus, etc. There are graded homeworks where the profs post the solutions online and just trust that you won't look until you finish which I imagine wouldn't work elsewhere.

Re: Honor Systems
 

[ QUOTE ]
The honor code is very important to Caltech culture. Although there is still cheating, it's pretty rare.

[/ QUOTE ]

What exactly is the evidence for this assertion? Do you just mean that the honor committee hears relatively few cases each semester? From the teaching side of things, such a committee is a huge pain in the ass and thus a pretty strong disincentive for people to report things, so unless the teacher takes that stuff exceptionally seriously or the offense is particularly egregious a lot of stuff probably just slides.

Re: Honor Systems
 

same as everywhere

Re: Honor Systems
 

[ QUOTE ]
same as everywhere

[/ QUOTE ]

Right, so where is the evidence for all of these assertions that the honor system has this huge cultural impact that everybody takes seriously? If you're the kind of person who takes it seriously, then it's fairly unlikely that people are going to have conversations about their cheating habits with you. That you sign a paper at the beginning of your college career and people talk about it a ton doesn't necessarily mean that it's widely respected, or that the presence of an honor code is making anybody honest except those who would be anyway.

Re: Honor Systems
 

Remember the beginning of Freakonomics, with the day care center? They start out by saying 'pick the kids up at X:00' and there was a certain amount of lateness from the parents. So the day care changed it to 'pick the kids up at X:00, and pay $Y for every 5 minutes you are late.' The quantity and severity of lateness went up. It was like the penalty was just a price, and the offense was still bad, but more acceptable, whereas before, lateness was tolerated but more taboo. You used to want to avoid it for social reasons, but now it was a legitimized option.

Maybe the honors system is similar. At Princeton (or wherever, this is all in my head, anyway) cheating is basically unspeakable, and is less likely to come up in the mind of a possible offender than if the price were clearer.

Sure, getting caught and punished somewhere is bad, but getting caught and punished when you are under the honors system (though much less likely) is infinitely bad (psychically, I mean.)

Re: Honor Systems
 

[ QUOTE ]
The honor code is very important to Caltech culture. Although there is still cheating, it's pretty rare. The fact that there is so much trust among members of the caltech community is nice cuz you can do things like take home tests,

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I don't understand how people can reach conclusions like this. Of course cheating is "rare" on take home exams because it is almost impossible to get caught, and those that do it won't talk about it in an atmosphere where the honor code is taken very seriously.

Re: Honor Systems
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The honor code is very important to Caltech culture. Although there is still cheating, it's pretty rare. The fact that there is so much trust among members of the caltech community is nice cuz you can do things like take home tests,

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand how people can reach conclusions like this. Of course cheating is "rare" on take home exams because it is almost impossible to get caught, and those that do it won't talk about it in an atmosphere where the honor code is taken very seriously.

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No kidding. There has recently been a pretty huge problem with cheating at the University of Michigan's engineering school. It's the only school on campus that follows an honor code about taking exams. I would have to imagine it's the same in any other highly competitive field (like, I don't know.... maybe an Ivey League school?)

Re: Honor Systems
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ivey League school

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http://msnbcmedia1.msn.com/j/msnbc/C...d_2p.widec.jpg

Re: Honor Systems
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ivey League school

[/ QUOTE ]

http://msnbcmedia1.msn.com/j/msnbc/C...d_2p.widec.jpg

[/ QUOTE ]

I have a Freudian man crush.

Re: Honor Systems
 

One thing I didn't mention is that the Honor Code at Princeton is a two-part code. You have to swear not to cheat and also to REPORT anyone you see/know of who cheats. So there IS a policing mechanism. In theory, someone could get expelled for not reporting someone cheating. I don't know of any cases where anyone reported cheating (but I'm guessing it's happened) but it's just another reason not to cheat. If your friends find out, they may very well rat you out to save your own asses. This is also why people take their tests with their heads down and don't look around the room. You don't WANT to see anyone else cheating, if it's happening. But in any case, obviously we can't say for sure that cheating is not prevalent. But I know of other schools where people ROUTINELY get tests in advance, cheat together, etc. and that type of thing I am pretty sure is not going on at Princeton.

Re: Honor Systems
 

There's an honor code system like that at Stanford too. I'm not going to make any claims about how common cheating is cause I have no idea, but I have never heard of anybody blatantly cheating.

There have been like two times where I've loaned someone my homework so they could copy one problem of it, but other than that, I really don't hear about much of anything.

It's a nice system. We get access to a ridiculous amount of stuff that we probably shouldn't - for example, in the Main Quad on campus, where there are lots of auditoriums with projectors/movie style seats/projection screens, they leave those buildings unlocked (even late Saturday nights) so people can go in and watch the movies on a nice setup. It's just assumed you won't trash anything or mess up the computer equipment. Obviously, the school isn't encouraging this, but they know about it and haven't done much to stop it.

Re: Honor Systems
 

[ QUOTE ]
Remember the beginning of Freakonomics, with the day care center? They start out by saying 'pick the kids up at X:00' and there was a certain amount of lateness from the parents. So the day care changed it to 'pick the kids up at X:00, and pay $Y for every 5 minutes you are late.' The quantity and severity of lateness went up. It was like the penalty was just a price, and the offense was still bad, but more acceptable, whereas before, lateness was tolerated but more taboo. You used to want to avoid it for social reasons, but now it was a legitimized option.

Maybe the honors system is similar. At Princeton (or wherever, this is all in my head, anyway) cheating is basically unspeakable, and is less likely to come up in the mind of a possible offender than if the price were clearer.

Sure, getting caught and punished somewhere is bad, but getting caught and punished when you are under the honors system (though much less likely) is infinitely bad (psychically, I mean.)

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There was also a cool section in that book about a bagel salesman who ran his business by the honor system. Buy a bagel and put a buck in the basket. He kept meticulous records and found that %78 (ball park figure, can't remember exactly) of people are honest. He also said that people were less honest around the holiday's, and that higher income people were less honest than lower wage earners.

Re: Honor Systems
 

cool story TWP

Re: Honor Systems
 

[ QUOTE ]
There was also a cool section in that book about a bagel salesman who ran his business by the honor system. Buy a bagel and put a buck in the basket. He kept meticulous records and found that %78 (ball park figure, can't remember exactly) of people are honest. He also said that people were less honest around the holiday's, and that higher income people were less honest than lower wage earners.

[/ QUOTE ]

Link for you friend!
http://www.freakonomicsbook.com/articles/bagelman.html