Adjusting HOH to shorter tournaments
 

HOH and other books are written with the WSOP and WPT style tournaments in mind. Those with large starting chip counts and long time frames. I play mostly tournaments designed to last no longer than three hours. Starting chip counts are already in the orange zone.

Are there any books that talk about how to modify early play to adjust for this?

Re: Adjusting HOH to shorter tournaments
 

Shill account for Snyder?

Re: Adjusting HOH to shorter tournaments
 

I'm not a shill account for anyone. Just new to the forums. But since you mentioned Snyder I'll assume he has something to say about adjusting to shorter tournaments.

Re: Adjusting HOH to shorter tournaments
 

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Shill account for Snyder?

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LOL... my thoughts exactly.

Re: Adjusting HOH to shorter tournaments
 

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I'm not a shill account for anyone. Just new to the forums. But since you mentioned Snyder I'll assume he has something to say about adjusting to shorter tournaments.

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Hubfinserv,

I'm going to assume you aren't a shill for Snyder and give you a straight answer. The book they're referring to, "The Poker Tournament Formula" by Arnold Snyder, is targeted at beating tournaments with short starting stacks and fast blind structures. If you do a search in this forum (books and publications) on the title of the book you'll find numerous threads on the book as well as discussiong some articles Snyder has published on his web site.

If you do the search you'll find that Mason Malmuth (owner of 2+2) gave the book a positive review (8 of 10 stars IIRC) although he had some serous reservations about the basic premise that the speed of a tournament should impact strategy. If you go back far enough you'll find discussions on a few of Snyder's specific playing suggestions with arguments both for and against. My advice would be to review as many of the threads as you can stomach starting with the oldest and if you're aren't persuaded one way or the other buy the book and decide for yourself. I would caution you to seperate the discussions about the subsequent articles Snyder wrote from those about the actual book.

Re: Adjusting HOH to shorter tournaments
 

Thanks for your response. I've seen the threads about the book, but didn't delve deep enough to get the complete picture of it's contents.

Again

Thanks

Re: Adjusting HOH to shorter tournaments
 

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Starting chip counts are already in the orange zone.

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Maybe start by applying general "orange zone" strategy....? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: Adjusting HOH to shorter tournaments
 

Sounds like World Tavern Poker, which is what I play.

I lower my starting hand requirements some, but generally play tight for the first couple of levels. If I'm going well, I keep playing the same way, otherwise, I'm pushing hard with hands like A 9, KQ, medium pocket pair. But, you have to push hard before you get below an M of 3, after that, you're going to get called no matter what you have.

I use my position and fairly tight table image to steal when I can, and if I have the pot odds to call, I go for it. If I have a strong hand, I push it for all it's worth. If I bust out, so be it. It's free poker, so you have to be a little reckless.

Since I picked up HOH 1 and 2, my win rate has skyrocketed. People are starting to hate to see me sit down with them. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Adjusting HOH to shorter tournaments
 

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If you do the search you'll find that Mason Malmuth (owner of 2+2) gave the book a positive review (8 of 10 stars IIRC) although he had some serous reservations about the basic premise that the speed of a tournament should impact strategy.

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Which is, by the way, a pretty absurd position to take.

Re: Adjusting HOH to shorter tournaments
 

I pretty much follow HoH. Only changes I make it when the table is starting to get short. Still I play alot by what my M is at that point.

Re: Adjusting HOH to shorter tournaments
 

i am curious about same subject......

i think a 3-hour start to finish tournament is too fast for even arnold's book/strategy.... i think his minimum length tourney where luck doesn't equal 100% would be about 7 hours to the finish. field significantly reduced at 3 hours of course.

FWIW, and alot might be luck (both ways), but i think i did my best with HOH approach modified. ... AND a few times where you close your eyes and go all-in because too much of your stack is already in, even though you only have moderately strong hand....

EDIT: as per actual advice, gap concept is still vital and position still matters alot, but your hand requirements go moderately down.... one thing i'm unclear on is how much to worry about going all-in A6o for example when likely called by only better ace or pocket pair. not sure if i should have KT+, for example, in opponent's call range.... obviously if you think your opponent only calls with A-better and pocket pairs, then almost any hand is better than your dominated (or semi-dominated)A6o

Re: Adjusting HOH to shorter tournaments
 

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i am curious about same subject......

i think a 3-hour start to finish tournament is too fast for even arnold's book/strategy.... i think his minimum length tourney where luck doesn't equal 100% would be about 7 hours to the finish. field significantly reduced at 3 hours of course.

FWIW, and alot might be luck (both ways), but i think i did my best with HOH approach modified. ... AND a few times where you close your eyes and go all-in because too much of your stack is already in, even though you only have moderately strong hand....

EDIT: as per actual advice, gap concept is still vital and position still matters alot, but your hand requirements go moderately down.... one thing i'm unclear on is how much to worry about going all-in A6o for example when likely called by only better ace or pocket pair. not sure if i should have KT+, for example, in opponent's call range.... obviously if you think your opponent only calls with A-better and pocket pairs, then almost any hand is better than your dominated (or semi-dominated)A6o

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SMBruin22,

Your response sounds like it is addressing specific comments in a post, but I couldn't find or remember anything in this thread that they would be addressing. I still have some comments though. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

The length of the tournament is impacted by field size as well as the blind structure. Online vs live also makes a difference. I haven't computed the patience factor, but believe something like the 45 or 90 man sit-and-go's on Full Tilt, for example, probably fall within the parameters of what the PTF is intended for and generally run somewhere in the 2-4 hour range.

My personal strategy is something that could be called "modified Harrington" too. A large percentage of those modifications are from or were inspired by Snyder.

Re: Adjusting HOH to shorter tournaments
 

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Your response sounds like it is addressing specific comments in a post, but I couldn't find or remember anything in this thread that they would be addressing. I still have some comments though. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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thanks for your response.... OP said 3 hour total time for the tourney. you are correct that a smaller tournament might be o.k. for that time. i tend to think of larger entrant tourneys where you really need to build your stack. and in 3 hour tourney, you'd have to build in first 90 minutes.

i think arnold has sort of 7-8 hour B&M tourney as his minimum standard.... but quite unclear on # of players. i know he does have a formula but it doesn't really get you where you want to be. harrington is unclear too, but i assume he chooses large, long tourney as his base so the variability isn't as great.

later on my comment, i just went free-form on some thoughts.

basically arnold is not that much different from what i think fast-HOH would be if dan wrote that type of book.

Re: Adjusting HOH to shorter tournaments
 

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as per actual advice, gap concept is still vital and position still matters alot

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Position is everything, gap concept only applies at high blinds (at low blinds there is inverse gap concept).

Re: Adjusting HOH to shorter tournaments
 

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HOH and other books are written with the WSOP and WPT style tournaments in mind. Those with large starting chip counts and long time frames. I play mostly tournaments designed to last no longer than three hours. Starting chip counts are already in the orange zone.

Are there any books that talk about how to modify early play to adjust for this?

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HOH has a ton of examples and scenarios from online tourneys, which can easily be used for faster tournaments. I have the Arnold Snyder book and although it refers to fast tourneys, I still think HOH material can easily be adjusted for faster tourneys better than using Snyder's concepts. I just speed up the zones from HOH in faster tourneys, for example I may start pushing as soon as I enter the orange zone, or even lower yellow zone, rather than waiting until I reach the red zone. In other words I may start push/fold with an M of 11 or 12 in a fast tourney where as in a slower tourney I would still be looking to raise and try and outplay my opponents on the flop etc.

Re: Adjusting HOH to shorter tournaments
 

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Position is everything, gap concept only applies at high blinds (at low blinds there is inverse gap concept).

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does the gap really reverse? i.e. inverse gap.... i'm thinking the overlay gets significant, but that's not the same as a reversed gap........... but maybe it's all terminology.

and not sure it completely relates to your comments, but i'd also add the dynamics of short stack MTT can be completely different that SNG. can still have a few full tables and lots of players with low M's