Are Astronauts Heroes?
 

Do you guys think of astronauts as heroes? I remember asking diebitter this question months ago and he said he felt they were but I don't remember him giving me a reason.


While we’re at it, would you consider these people heroes?

- police officers/firemen
- soldiers
- sports figures
- teachers
- politicians
- artists (eg. John Lennon or perhaps a filmmaker you love)

- how about your parents?



Are heroes only for kids? I know a couple guys who talk about NASCAR drivers as if they are heroes. I know this girl who thinks all cops are heroes. She’s really gaga over cops. The whole sports-hero thing seems to cross all age barriers and all cultures. And have you noticed how every presidential election we get some candidate who stands up on that podium and talks about teachers as if they are heroic? [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] Someone explain that one to me!

I read somewhere that the majority of people cite their own parents as their heroes. That’s kinda cool if you think about it, but aren’t parents supposed to be there for their kids? How is this really heroic? People must have differing definitions of the word "hero".


So anyway, back to astronauts...Why do we perpetuate the astronaut-hero myth? Someone explain it to me. All my life I’ve been told that astronauts are heroes but I’m not really sure why. Are they heroes if they're in it for the glory or if they spend their entire career behind a desk?

thanks.

Re: Are Astronauts Heroes?
 

I think you need to start by having a common definition of "Hero" as "Hero" means different things to different people.

Re: Are Astronauts Heroes?
 

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I think you need to start by having a common definition of "Hero" as "Hero" means different things to different people.

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I'm interested in what everyone's idea of "hero" is. Tell me how you define it.

Here's what the dictionary said:

Hero - a man distinguished by courage or ability, admired for brave deeds and noble qualities.


I guess for me, a hero would be someone who places his own needs and safety second, in order to make considerable sacrifies for the good of others. However, being paid to do something sort of negates the "hero" aspect for me, as does parenting. What I mean is a parent ought to sacrifice and protect her kids, this should not be thought of as heroic. Likewise, a doctor ought to help try to heal patients. This is not heroic either.

Re: Are Astronauts Heroes?
 

Katy,

If you haven't already read Tom Wolfe's "The Right Stuff" about the original Mercury Seven (or just rent/buy the movie; very underrated IMO). I can't imagine not believing they were heroes after that read.

As the other poster mentioned Hero needs to be defined but by my definition they generally would top your list (even today going up in that aging shuttle).

~ Rick

PS If you want to get an idea of the book just hang around a chain bookstore with a coffee/latte whatever and read the chapter called "Yeager". It sort of stands alone and was excerpted in I think Atlantic Monthly (or maybe Esquire) before the book came out. (BTW, possible good thread topic: Is a Chain bookstore mostly a library, a place to get coffee and pastry, a place that sells books, or a place to pick up/meet smart chicks/guys?)

Re: Are Astronauts Heroes?
 

Ok, the first bunch of astronauts I can see as being heroic. Those must have been very uncertain times and yeah a whole new science. But the new crop I'm just not sure about. I know a bunch of people who have told me they would do it in a heartbeat, just to be able to say they did it. Just for the rush. Ask anyone around you. 50% of your friends will tell you that they'd go up in that shuttle in a heartbeat. I think it makes them more daredevils than heroes. I guess I sort of look at astronauts as scientists or engineers. I'm pretty sure that every one of the new crop is convinced they will make it back to earth safely.

Re: Are Astronauts Heroes?
 

Astronauts - Heroes? No, but certainly courageous. It takes balls to get on top of a giant mass of fuel and hope you both make it up and back down again.

police officers/firemen - I have to separate these. Firemen, yes. I've known a few and they really strive hard to save people, houses, etc. I think most are a little crazy, but maybe that's part of makes them want to tackle burning buildings.

police - No. In fact, most are [censored] that enjoy being in a position of power over others. I've met one policemen on or off duty that wasn't an [censored] and he hated his job and coworkers so much he committed suicide.

soldiers - too much variance to generalize. I think, in large part, they're people who got into the service because it was one of the only things they were qualified to do and too poor to get other training. I suspect they do courageous things, but I have a hard time believing the majority really joined to "save/serve their country".

sports figures - Absolutely not, certainly no higher percentage of altruistic heroes amongst them than the general populace.

teachers - Maybe more than the average. Many teachers get into teaching out of a desire to help kids and that in and of itself lends to what I'd think of as heroic actions. Maybe not physically heroic, but going that extra mile for people.

politicians - Nope, barring a very very few examples. I think in this day of age, politics prevents heroes from getting anywhere in politics.

artists - Nope, no altruism or desire to help others here. It's about self expression by and large.

Re: Are Astronauts Heroes?
 

Katy,

I unpixellated your avatar for you:

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...g/leelabx4.gif

Re: Are Astronauts Heroes?
 

[ QUOTE ]
So anyway, back to astronauts...Why do we perpetuate the astronaut-hero myth? Someone explain it to me. All my life I’ve been told that astronauts are heroes but I’m not really sure why. Are they heroes if they're in it for the glory or if they spend their entire career behind a desk?


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When I was a kid astronauts were a real big deal. The teacher would stop teaching and we would turn on the radio and listen to the live news of the adventures of Alan Sheppard and John Glenn etc. Then of course the moon landings were huge. The movie Apollo 13 shows plenty of heroism both in the craft and on the ground. However Space Shuttle astronauts seem like glorified airline pilots. Not to say that doesn't have it's risks as we have seen horrifically in the past. There is plenty that can go wrong and a certain degree of heroism or risk is certainly implied. But space shuttle missions seem commonplace nowadays and don't hold the romanticism of the initial space shots or going to the moon.

Re: Are Astronauts Heroes?
 

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Astronauts - Heroes? No, but certainly courageous. It takes balls to get on top of a giant mass of fuel and hope you both make it up and back down again.

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Heh, my answer to the OP is "no chance", but I came across this bit and you've got a very good point.

katy, they aren't heroes simply by having job titles, it's all in their acts. For example, there is a lot of cop-hating and of course cops all have their own reason for wanting that job, but I'm sure there are plenty who strive to do the right thing, and then you've got the guys like Harvey Keitel in "Bad Lieutenant".

By the way, I wonder if ItalianFX's boss would mind if he knew that he plays poker extensively. It's kinda the same thing behind the NBA ref thing, but even more so because of his authoritah.

Re: Are Astronauts Heroes?
 

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By the way, I wonder if ItalianFX's boss would mind if he knew that he plays poker extensively. It's kinda the same thing behind the NBA ref thing, but even more so because of his authoritah.

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I don't play it for income, more as a hobby, I guess. I doubt he would care as poker is not illegal? Correct? I don't see how it relates to the NBA ref thing as I don't have any authority to dictate the outcome of a poker game. Also, I don't gamble on the over/under of how many traffic stops I will make or how many arrests I will have.

As far as astronauts being heros, imo, I don't think so. Like one poster said, they are courageous. The definition that katy gave is kind of misleading because it would encompass alot of people who are courageous, but are more of a gambler/risk taker/stupid. To me, at least that is my opinion. Also, a hero to me is someone who goes above and beyond the expected duty of one person. A soldier who jumps on a grenade to save other soldiers is a hero. A person who runs into a burning building and rescues anybody is a hero. However, a soldier in Iraq who goes there for 12 months and then comes home is not a hero. Remember, that is my opinion. I was in Kosovo for 7 months, peacekeeping, which gave me veteran status, but I don't consider myself a hero. I am a police officer - I always try to do the right thing - but I don't consider myself a hero.

A guy I work with was commended in another county for running into a burning house to save a lady, he is probably a hero to her. To me, he's just a partner I work with.

So all-in-all, what I am getting at is that who can be labeled as a Hero is all in the eyes of the beholder.

Re: Are Astronauts Heroes?
 

ItalianFX,

I hope you realize I wasn't saying you should NOT be playing poker, just curious what the response might be. I personally don't have any problems with NBA refs gambling, either (FYI, it apparently states in their contract that the only gambling they are allowed to do is on horses...LOL, yeah nobody ever gets hooked on that, clearly whoever left that in there has never been to a bar that has off-track betting and seen all the worn-out looking degens).

But I'm sure somewhere in America there's a cop or two that has a gambling problem so abuses his authoritah (I dunno, maybe stealing contraband and selling it), so that's why I axed.

Re: Are Astronauts Heroes?
 

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politicians - Nope, barring a very very few examples. I think in this day of age, politics prevents heroes from getting anywhere in politics.

artists - Nope, no altruism or desire to help others here. It's about self expression by and large.

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Can you think of any politicians you would have considered heroes? Kennedy maybe? I know someone who thinks Reagan was a hero. He talks about him in glowing terms. I should probably read up on the guy because I don't know one thing that he did while he was in office [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img].

edited to say: I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people view Obama as a "hero". When my sister first told me about this senator from her state, she spoke of him as if he were some type of hero who would save our country.


Didn't a lot of people look up to Lennon as a hero? Also, I think that film would be a great way to aid or influence a group of people. I don't see why filmmakers couldn't be heroes.

Re: Are Astronauts Heroes?
 

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katy, they aren't heroes simply by having job titles, it's all in their acts. For example, there is a lot of cop-hating and of course cops all have their own reason for wanting that job, but I'm sure there are plenty who strive to do the right thing, and then you've got the guys like Harvey Keitel in "Bad Lieutenant".



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I completely agree with you and yet run into so many people who think otherwise. For instance, the "teacher as hero" thing. Haven't you ever heard people say "well god bless her for being a teacher. Teachers aren't paid enough. They are saints." I'm usually like "huh? How about those jerks I had when I was in h.s.? They were lazy and unimpressive if you ask me." And they're like "You must have asked for it. I can tell you right now that it's not easy being a teacher. They are heroes."

Heroes? They get compensated well and get the summers off. It doesn't seem like a bad gig to me.

A lot of people think of these professions as "heroic" based on title only. I find it pretty strange and just cannot get on the same page.


(Covering my ass to say that I do feel there are many soldiers out there in Iraq who are heroes. We just may never hear of them.)

Re: Are Astronauts Heroes?
 

The old astronauts were probably heroes. They inspired a whole nation.

I think a hero is someone we all can look at and say, "Wow, not me."

I guess with that, then different people would be allowed to have their own definition.

The above definition is loose. I don't care about sports, and never looked up to Micheal Jordan as a hero. But I am sure that he was a hero to Shaq.

A hero would be someone that the individual strives to be, but knows that he will never obtain. In this light, I guess a good parent could be a hero.

I play poker, and stand in awe of everyone on TV, but I don't consider any of them my heroes, but I have modeled my thinking and playing after them. Someone else may see them as my heroes.

Re: Are Astronauts Heroes?
 

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I play poker, and stand in awe of everyone on TV, but I don't consider any of them my heroes

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Not even Tony G?

Re: Are Astronauts Heroes?
 

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Katy,

I unpixellated your avatar for you:

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...g/leelabx4.gif

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Look what Borodog did for me! Borodog, you're my hero [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Re: Are Astronauts Heroes?
 

I think that the word hero has been debased so much in recent times, which is why you are inclined to think that 'heroes are only for kids.'

An entire profession cannot be composed of heroes (well, outside of graphic novels); one must distinguish oneself. Not every soldier in Iraq is a hero, not even every soldier who died is a hero; one who gave his life by falling on a grenade to save a dozen comrades might well be, though.

Athletes are heroes only by cliche; Jesse Owens might be considered a hero. Police officers, firemen, teachers...there may be times when these professions give rise to heroes (Stand and Deliver?) but there's nothing particularly heroic about the day-to-day life of any of them.

I don't know, maybe I'm too stingy with my heroes. I don't see astronauts are particularly heroic; they are just scientists/pilots with an unusually dangerous job.

Re: Are Astronauts Heroes?
 

Did we come up with a definition?

I think heroes are those willing to sacrifice something important in order to help others.

I would certainly call firemen heroes, and astronauts too. The fact that fireman risk dangerous conditions just to help others qualifies them as such. And the fact astronauts do something incredibly risky for the benefit of mankind is something to be greatly admired.

Note sure about the rest of the initial list.

Re: Are Astronauts Heroes?
 

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Athletes are heroes only by cliche; Jesse Owens might be considered a hero. Police officers, firemen, teachers...there may be times when these professions give rise to heroes (Stand and Deliver?) but there's nothing particularly heroic about the day-to-day life of any of them.

I don't know, maybe I'm too stingy with my heroes. I don't see astronauts are particularly heroic; they are just scientists/pilots with an unusually dangerous job.

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We seem to have similar opinions on this subject. I'm a little stingy with my heroes too, although for some reason I do understand poker celebrity worship. Go figure.

Anyway, I agree that there's nothing intrinsically heroic about a profession, but the individuals might be people we absolutely admire. I think DaveT came up with a very good definition, actually. A hero is someone we strive to be but know that we will never attain. That's actually quite good, DaveT. I've only had a couple personal heroes in my life. They were individuals who had an impact on my life who I admired very much, not for their bravery but for their compassion and intelligence.


Oh and welcome to the Lounge, Sholar. Hope to see you posting more often.

Re: Are Astronauts Heroes?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Katy,

I unpixellated your avatar for you:

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...g/leelabx4.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Look what Borodog did for me! Borodog, you're my hero [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Aww shucks. 'T weren't nothin' ma'am.

Re: Are Astronauts Heroes?
 

[ QUOTE ]
soldiers - too much variance to generalize. I think, in large part, they're people who got into the service because it was one of the only things they were qualified to do and too poor to get other training.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is one of the most ignorant things I have read on 2+2.


Also, I tried to come up with a lame Astronaut Kidnapping their rival lover joke, but I got nothing.

Re: Are Astronauts Heroes?
 

I'm a teacher and I certainly don't think of myself or my colleagues as heroes, although I believe we should strive to be role models.

I consider a hero to be someone who puts their life on the line for the benefit of others. A firefighter taking risks in a burning building would qualify, as would a soldier fighting for his country.

Astronauts have a dangerous job for the scientific advancement of mankind so I see going up into space is an heroic act.

Re: Are Astronauts Heroes?
 

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This is one of the most ignorant things I have read on 2+2.




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For some reason it appears you are attributing this quote to diebitter. I'm pretty sure those aren't his words.

Re: Are Astronauts Heroes?
 

Not all astronauts go into space. They can wait for years performing lab studies and research.

Regarding Lisa Nowak (who was arrested for stalking her rival in Florida),

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... the astronauts come under constant scrutiny by their management to determine who will fly and who will not. Some never get assigned to a space mission, yet they are called astronauts as long as they work for NASA.

.

Nowak was hired as an astronaut in 1996. It was a decade before she flew into space. During that time, she was passed over again and again. Somewhere along the line during those disappointing years, I think she became brittle. She finally flew, landed and then was sent to the back of the astronaut line again.


[/ QUOTE ] (from an article I read online)




Off topic -- Some people (mainly her lawyer and family) have suggested that Lisa Nowak is a victim of the NASA culture, pressured to be a super achiever, put in a position where she waited 10 yrs to go into space, forced to try to compete with more and more hirees (sp?), etc. Is it possible that the astronaut program is partially to blame for her emotional meltdown?

Re: Are Astronauts Heroes?
 

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politicians - Nope, barring a very very few examples. I think in this day of age, politics prevents heroes from getting anywhere in politics.

artists - Nope, no altruism or desire to help others here. It's about self expression by and large.

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Can you think of any politicians you would have considered heroes? Kennedy maybe?

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Kennedy maybe. Lincoln most likely. A man in bad spot in the nations worst crisis ever and he rose to the challenge.

Winston Churchill definitely.

Few and far between though. Politicians lose their entire career if they try something heroic and it doesn't pan out, that makes them very risk adverse. Even if it does pan out, it's rarely going to do as much good as it could have done harm.

I think most "heroic" acts occur when people feel they don't have much to lose or don't have time to think about it. Rushing in to save a woman in a burning house I can hear screaming help, yea, I probably do it because I don't have time to really think about it.

Give me 2 hours to save someone and I'm going to think about my wife and kids, what I have to lose and hey, maybe I can just help plan it and get someone else to do the dangerous part...

Re: Are Astronauts Heroes?
 

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This is one of the most ignorant things I have read on 2+2.




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For some reason it appears you are attributing this quote to diebitter. I'm pretty sure those aren't his words.

[/ QUOTE ]

What? Did you read the thread?

Re: Are Astronauts Heroes?
 

I have in the past few months read a few books written by astronauts and looked into what qualifies as the "right stuff". Becoming an astronaut is an incredible process. It's giving up so much of your life to a bureaucracy that will abuse you, just for the chance to strap yourself on top of a rocket that has a decent chance of killing you.

There are plenty of astronauts that I consider heroes, if only because of how much self sacrifice and work they have inside of them. I aspire to that, if nothing else.

Re: Are Astronauts Heroes?
 

I admire astronauts and the Apollo 11 crew where huge heroes of mine when I was a kid.

I think astronauts' hero status has been diminished somewhat by NASA's continuing to donk around with an obsolete space shuttle, fulfilling political obligations on a derelict space station when we should be getting on with the business of establishing bases on the Moon and Mars, with the long range goal being permanent colonization both there and perhaps further out on moons or asteroids.

Re: Are Astronauts Heroes?
 

From what I understand, the space station is necessary as a means of studying the long term affects of the human body in zero gravity. There's no point in spending billions and billions to build colonies on mars if our current science means we can't survive in space for more than a year.

Re: Are Astronauts Heroes?
 

Wiki spaceflight records

Valeri Polyakov, launched 8 January 1994 (Soyuz TM-18), stayed at Mir LD-4 for 437.7 days, during which he orbited the earth about 7,075 times and traveled 300,765,000 km, (186,887,000 miles) returned March 22, 1995 (Soyuz TM-20).


"...the primary feature of a space-based laboratory is its microgravity environment, which can usually be studied more cheaply with a vomit comet -- that is, an aircraft which flies in parabolic arcs."




"NASA must complete the ISS so it can be dropped into the ocean on schedule in finished form."
—Robert L. Park

[img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Are Astronauts Heroes?
 

[ QUOTE ]
soldiers - too much variance to generalize. I think, in large part, they're people who got into the service because it was one of the only things they were qualified to do and too poor to get other training. I suspect they do courageous things, but I have a hard time believing the majority really joined to "save/serve their country".

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Why do rejects continue to say this even though it's been proven to be completely false, on average?

Re: Are Astronauts Heroes?
 

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From what I understand, the space station is necessary as a means of studying the long term affects of the human body in zero gravity. There's no point in spending billions and billions to build colonies on mars if our current science means we can't survive in space for more than a year.

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It is my impression that NASA scientists aren't as interested in the ISS as other missions and feel that it is taking up way too much budget for too little return. I don't however wish to speak for these people and may be wrong (but I work with some of them).

Re: Are Astronauts Heroes?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
soldiers - too much variance to generalize. I think, in large part, they're people who got into the service because it was one of the only things they were qualified to do and too poor to get other training. I suspect they do courageous things, but I have a hard time believing the majority really joined to "save/serve their country".

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Why do rejects continue to say this even though it's been proven to be completely false, on average?

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Fine, prove otherwise. What's the average household income of the average recruit? Years ago it was significantly under the national average.

What's the percentage of minorities who sign up? It was, years ago when recruiters were on campus and articles talked about it, significantly higher than the national average.

Why has the recruiting office dropped it's IQ standards for recruiting? Because enough smart people aren't joining...

But, feel free, go find and post research countering it. I said in my initial post it was my feeling that these things were true. If you want to quote research, then quote a real link rather than just being an insulting [censored].

Re: Are Astronauts Heroes?
 

I've never really thought about it, but yeah I'd consider Astronauts heroes.

They leave their family and friends to go explore relatively uncharted (unchartered?) territory, with a fairly large (compared to other forms of travel) probability of not returning, all in the name of Science and Research. And getting your face on a Stamp.

Re: Are Astronauts Heroes?
 

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Why do rejects continue to say this even though it's been proven to be completely false, on average?

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Fine, prove otherwise. What's the average household income of the average recruit? Years ago it was significantly under the national average.

What's the percentage of minorities who sign up? It was, years ago when recruiters were on campus and articles talked about it, significantly higher than the national average.

Why has the recruiting office dropped it's IQ standards for recruiting? Because enough smart people aren't joining...

But, feel free, go find and post research countering it. I said in my initial post it was my feeling that these things were true. If you want to quote research, then quote a real link rather than just being an insulting [censored].

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I agree with Bogey, let's not be insulting in this thread. I asked for people's opinions and he gave me his. I see nothing wrong with what Bogey said in his initial post. I didn't find it antagonistic. He was just stating his opinion.

This is the Lounge. If you have an opinion, state it without resorting to name calling please.