Are we bluffing pf?
 

So a recent hand post made me start thinking about calling vs 3-betting pf when we have hands like JJ/AQo/TT and the opener is a fairly solid player.

Obviously if you have extensive 3-betting history with a player then 3-betting good but not premium hands like JJ/TT/AQ will be a good idea because you will probably get calls/4 bets from weaker hands and can then adjust your play accordingly.

But when you don't really have that much history with a 23/17 or 20/16 and he opens UTG, is there value in reraising JJ/AQ? If we don't have a read that the player is spewy or calls pf 3-bets light then it feels like reraising JJ/AQ is essentially a bluff because he's never going to call OOP with a worse hand.

Calling still kind of sucks though because then we let them bluff us off the best hand a lot or catch a better flop despit us having the best hand pf.

So what do most of you guys do in these situations?

UTG (23/17) opens UTG and you have JJ? TT? AQo?
UTG (18/14) opens UTG and you have JJ? AQs?

I feel like this problem is still present even with later positions. If a good TAG opens in MP/CO and I repop with TT/AQ/JJ I feel like he's folding worse hands and he's really only calling with better hands that he's trapping with.

These situations will change a lot if both of us are deep or if we've been battling a ton. But with 100 BB stacks and little history what should we be doing in these situations because I feel like I still don't "get it"

Re: Are we bluffing pf?
 

Anyone? I know this is broad but even a little advice/insight would be much appreciated. It's a topic that still bugs me, perhaps it's too situation/villain dependent but what are your typical lines with these hands vs UTG opens by solid TAG's?

Re: Are we bluffing pf?
 

A truly good TAG should be able to outplay us with position, and know we can do the same with him. That being said, I'd be much more inclined to 3bet IP than OOP (CO rather than BB for example). A lot of it depends on who's left to act too. You'd rather not blow a bad player out of the hand if you can keep him in and extract postflop.

Overall, I think truly good TAG's (not regulars, or exploitable TAG's) should just end up pushing pots back and forth to each other in most 3-betting situations. 3b these hands enough to balance your play, but just don't forget where your real profit comes from.

Re: Are we bluffing pf?
 

I agree that I 3-bet more IP, that being said good TAG's will really only call a 3-bet when OOP if they are trapping with a premium hand. So why are we three-betting these good but not premium hands if they won't call with worse?

Re: Are we bluffing pf?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I agree that I 3-bet more IP, that being said good TAG's will really only call a 3-bet when OOP if they are trapping with a premium hand. So why are we three-betting these good but not premium hands if they won't call with worse?

[/ QUOTE ]

So you can do it with premium hands as well. If you only ever just call with JJ IP instead of 3-betting, your 3b range in these particular spots becomes glaringly obvious.

Re: Are we bluffing pf?
 

one of the reasons for many many things in poker, is that it will disguise our hands in other situations. if you only 3bet with the QQ+ here, he will quickly figure that out and exploit you very easily.

also, against a 20/17, with hands like JJ, you are ahead of his opening range UTG and therefore its not a bluff at all, its a value raise

Re: Are we bluffing pf?
 

[ QUOTE ]
one of the reasons for many many things in poker, is that it will disguise our hands in other situations. if you only 3bet with the QQ+ here, he will quickly figure that out and exploit you very easily.


[/ QUOTE ]

IMO this is irrelevant because villain is unknown/little history. As we log more hands with villain it will become more of a concern.

Re: Are we bluffing pf?
 

yeah, what manchild said.
I would guess the cutoff is somewhere 15%+ i would reraise, but against 12% and less openers is just a call. and in between i would vary i guess.

Re: Are we bluffing pf?
 

[ QUOTE ]
also, against a 20/17, with hands like JJ, you are ahead of his opening range UTG and therefore its not a bluff at all, its a value raise

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that we are usually ahead, but my point is that a solid TAG is almost never going to just call our 3-bet out of position with a weaker hand. If a TAG opens UTG, we three bet in position, most good TAG's are never going to flat call our 3-bet with a worse hand (assuming 100 BB stacks and little history).

When we do get called it's almost always by a better hand that is trapping us. So my question still stands, if our opponent isn't going to call us with worse, aren't we bluffing?

Re: Are we bluffing pf?
 

Really depends on how positionally aware/active the 23/17 is. If his steal% is something like 25%, I'm 3-betting his UTG raise with all of those hands. Most of those guys call 3-bets with way too wide a range - which TT/AQ are both doing great against. If he is very positionally aware and stealing closer to 35%, I'm not usually reraising his UTG range. As for the 18/14 - I'm almost never 3-betting those guys' UTG range.

Re: Are we bluffing pf?
 

Very nice post Dire, this was the kind of thing I was looking for. I especially like the analysis of pfr with respect to steal %.

Re: Are we bluffing pf?
 

good point! does 3% really make that much of a difference? Is there like a table or program of some sort that will show what range a player with X% will open?

Re: Are we bluffing pf?
 

yeah i think you gotta check your own stats in situations like this. If you run 17/14 at the table, hes not gonna call with worse.. So id like to call. But sometimes they call with worse hands alot.. I always pay attention when a 3bet pot is played. And make notes if i see that guy calling a 3bet with a weird hand.

And we have position here right? If not i would 3bet almost always.

Re: Are we bluffing pf?
 

[ QUOTE ]
if you only 3bet with the QQ+ here, he will quickly figure that out and exploit you very easily.


[/ QUOTE ]

I see this proclaimed often. But, I'm dubious.

How often do you get such a read on someone. It takes thousands of hands and even then you'll never be sure. Just because you call JJ doesn't mean you're not 3betting suited connectors etc.

So how many people in your database do you have a read that he can 3bet light but will only raise an UTG raisor with QQ+?

I'll often call against UTG preflop raisers w/AQ and JJ. We don't have to raise just because we some small preflop equity. Getting bluffed by worse hands when flops that are bad for our hand isn't the end of the world. We can still sometimes make a play at the pot postflop.

By calling in position, we are in a smaller pot where we can wield our positional advantage better. And we have a hand that figures to be ahead of their range. This should be a profitable situation for us. Unless we much worse than our opponent postflop!

Re: Are we bluffing pf?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
also, against a 20/17, with hands like JJ, you are ahead of his opening range UTG and therefore its not a bluff at all, its a value raise

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that we are usually ahead, but my point is that a solid TAG is almost never going to just call our 3-bet out of position with a weaker hand. If a TAG opens UTG, we three bet in position, most good TAG's are never going to flat call our 3-bet with a worse hand (assuming 100 BB stacks and little history).

When we do get called it's almost always by a better hand that is trapping us. So my question still stands, if our opponent isn't going to call us with worse, aren't we bluffing?

[/ QUOTE ]

Won't he sometimes flat call AK here, a hand you're ahead of?

Re: Are we bluffing pf?
 

I know of no solid TAG's who'll flat call a 3-bet OOP with AK, it's just a bad situation for them, they'll usually fold or more likely 4bet/shove

Re: Are we bluffing pf?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I know of no solid TAG's who'll flat call a 3-bet OOP with AK, it's just a bad situation for them, they'll usually fold or more likely 4bet/shove

[/ QUOTE ]


what. i will

Re: Are we bluffing pf?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if you only 3bet with the QQ+ here, he will quickly figure that out and exploit you very easily.


[/ QUOTE ]

I see this proclaimed often. But, I'm dubious.

How often do you get such a read on someone. It takes thousands of hands and even then you'll never be sure. Just because you call JJ doesn't mean you're not 3betting suited connectors etc.

So how many people in your database do you have a read that he can 3bet light but will only raise an UTG raisor with QQ+?

[/ QUOTE ]

I am dubious as well. Unless you're constantly playing against the same players or playing HU, making these types of decisions to disguise your monsters does not seem to offer much value. I can see how 3-betting more may make you look like a maniac at that table, but 1) will the fish really take much note of that? and 2) will you be aware of which tables you have established an especially aggressive image if you are playing many tables at once?

Re: Are we bluffing pf?
 

you shouldnt do anything 100% of the time

Re: Are we bluffing pf?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I know of no solid TAG's who'll flat call a 3-bet OOP with AK, it's just a bad situation for them, they'll usually fold or more likely 4bet/shove

[/ QUOTE ]


what. i will

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok I'll rephrase, solid TAG's at 200 NL rarely just call a 3-bet OOP with AK. Most reg's (including myself [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] ) feel uncomfortable playing AK OOP in a 3-bet pot.

This line isn't really what I was getting at. I guess

Re: Are we bluffing pf?
 

I think 3betting is an important concept so let me share my thoughts.

If my 3betting frequencies were on a graph it would look like 3 mountain tops. With the tops being my 3 separate starting hand requirements for 3betting and the troughs being the hands I would just cold call with. For instance, I will 3bet with my premiums:

AA,KK,QQ,AK. I want full value out of these hands and welcome action. When you raise you raise for value.

22-77. These hands play very poorly on their own so they need some help. 3betting these hands allows you to get more value out of them because your opponent will fold most of the time. If he does not fold they play pretty well post flop.

The last category is a big broader so I will list the general texture you want to be looking for.

Suited Connectors. The Higher the better. J10s is a 3bet while 56s is a muck.

Weaker Aces. A10/AJo. These hands don't play well enough post flop to warrant a cold call. I am in the 3bet or fold camp. You are 3betting as a bluff not for value obviously. In order to bet for value you would have to be ahead of an opponents calling range, which for the most part is not true.

Some hands I will NOT 3bet because they play too well postflop.

88-JJ. By 3betting these hands I am in fact destroying their value. Medium pocket pairs are good. Not big pot good but more like medium sized pot good. When I cold call with my JJ I am so far ahead of my opponents range that I will stand to profitably make much more than if I 3bet them.

It's deceptive. Opponents will be thrown for a loop when it comes time for showdown and you flip up JJ for an overpair while he was betting his top pair on the board on all 3 streets. It increases your range and effectively confuses your opponents.

High Suited One-Three Gappers: These are your Q10s,QJs K10s,KJs A10s,AJs AQs. These hands are strong enough to warrant a cold call, but if you are going to be cold calling with these hands you have to make moves on certain flops in order for them to be profitable. If you cold call with QJs and the flop comes 552 and you give up to a standard c-bet then don't bother calling preflop. This is a very important point and illustrates that the strength of your postflop play allows you to open up your preflop play.

AQ is strong enough to be lumped into the "High Suited One-Three Gappers" category. The tricky thing about Ace Queen is that you are so far ahead of an opponents raising range that it feels right to 3bet. But you are not ahead of an opponents calling range. This is why you should NOT 3bet it. If a hand has value, maintain that value. If a hand has very little value but HIGH potential value + fold equity than 3bet it. i.e. Small pocket pairs have very little intrinsic value but very high potential value. Suited Connectors maybe just be a 10 high on a hand chart but combined with fold equity/deception they can be the David to take down Goliath.

I hope this helps as you try to incorporate intelligent 3betting into your game.

Re: Are we bluffing pf?
 

Good stuff, Speed. I'll be rereading this a few more times.

I was wondering if you could clarify one thing that seems to be contradictory. You say you will raise premiums like AA and KK for value. But later you say you will cold call with JJ:

[ QUOTE ]
When I cold call with my JJ I am so far ahead of my opponents range that I will stand to profitably make much more than if I 3bet them.

[/ QUOTE ]

You say a similar thing about AQ:

[ QUOTE ]
you are so far ahead of an opponents raising range that it feels right to 3bet. But you are not ahead of an opponents calling range. This is why you should NOT 3bet it. If a hand has value, maintain that value.

[/ QUOTE ]

So why not cold call with AA and KK as well?

Re: Are we bluffing pf?
 

[ QUOTE ]
AQ is strong enough to be lumped into the "High Suited One-Three Gappers" category. The tricky thing about Ace Queen is that you are so far ahead of an opponents raising range that it feels right to 3bet. But you are not ahead of an opponents calling range.

[/ QUOTE ]
I disagree, i like to 3bet this when i have 3betted my opponent alot preflop. He will less likely believe me and call often with hands like KQ or AJ or AT. I agree tho without history.

Re: Are we bluffing pf?
 

Whang,

that's the whole point of this thread. AA and KK will get PF calls from a whole lot of lesser hands. AQ and JJ will not, in a vaccuum. It is obvious why JJ is ahead of a normal raising range.

Re: Are we bluffing pf?
 

i guess i shouldn't answer for sppedlimits but i think what he's saying is that when you 3bet JJ and AQ you pretty often cut down your opponents range in an unfavorable way. You go from a solid equity advantage to a significant equity disadvantage. this is obviously balanced by gaining initiative and sometimes having position, but wheter it makes up for it is another story...

Re: Are we bluffing pf?
 

Speedlimits,

Are you talking specifically against a solid regular, because hands like TT/JJ have some random unknown's calling range crushed.

Re: Are we bluffing pf?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Good stuff, Speed. I'll be rereading this a few more times.

I was wondering if you could clarify one thing that seems to be contradictory. You say you will raise premiums like AA and KK for value. But later you say you will cold call with JJ:

[ QUOTE ]
When I cold call with my JJ I am so far ahead of my opponents range that I will stand to profitably make much more than if I 3bet them.

[/ QUOTE ]

You say a similar thing about AQ:

[ QUOTE ]
you are so far ahead of an opponents raising range that it feels right to 3bet. But you are not ahead of an opponents calling range. This is why you should NOT 3bet it. If a hand has value, maintain that value.

[/ QUOTE ]

So why not cold call with AA and KK as well?

[/ QUOTE ]

You should be cold calling with AA/KK against tougher opposition (Taylor Caby mentions this in a lot of his recent CR videos). But against unknowns it is more profitable to 3bet. Also by 3betting AA/KK you exploit a common leak and that is when people set mine by calling 3bets with 100BB effective stacks.

Re: Are we bluffing pf?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Speedlimits,

Are you talking specifically against a solid regular, because hands like TT/JJ have some random unknown's calling range crushed.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am assuming 1-2/2-4 stakes where the competition is somewhat competent. You should change your 3betting/calling ranges if your opponent is a nit or a donk.

Re: Are we bluffing pf?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Speedlimits,

Are you talking specifically against a solid regular, because hands like TT/JJ have some random unknown's calling range crushed.


[/ QUOTE ] I am assuming 1-2/2-4 stakes where the competition is somewhat competent. You should change your 3betting/calling ranges if your opponent is a nit or a donk.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, it just sounded like you were saying you would play these types of hand in this manner against everybody which is obviously bad.

Re: Are we bluffing pf?
 

I'm more inclined to 3bet JJ/AQ oop. I'm not sure if this is standard for what you guys do, but it works for me.

I HATE playing them OOP and I really don't want to see a flop and have the pot taken away from me.

In position I'm fine with cold calling with JJ. A couple nights ago I posted a hand where I cold-called TT in position against a TAG, and 3 posters came out the gate saying WHY DIDN'T YOU 3BET? I forgot to reply, but that's fairly standard to me.

I feel like when I 3bet TT and even JJ in position, I become completely lost postflop.

Obviously against donks I'll 3bet them for value, but against TAGS I'm reconsidering the way I 3bet.

Re: Are we bluffing pf?
 

Awesome post speed. I agree on your reasoning to coldcall w/ AQ in position, but NOT oop vs a CO or button raiser. AQ (+JJ) need to be 3bet in these situations based strictly on the fact we are crushing our opponents range and that they are difficult to play oop postflop. Basically I'm raising to end the hand and take what $$ in the pot at that moment, plus those times when bad TAGs call the 3bet w/ AJ, KQ and an A or Q flops and we can extract $$$.
Vs an UTG TAG raise I will coldcall out of blinds w/ AQ if there is one other caller or just fold pf. A smaller % of the time I will 3bet or still coldcall HU just depending on opponent and how I'm playing.

Re: Are we bluffing pf?
 

OOP I 3-bet JJ/AQ vs. late position openers pretty much always. It might be sort of a bluff in the sense that worse hand do not often call us, but otherwise we make life hard for ourselves on the flop and fold the best hand way too often I think.

Re: Are we bluffing pf?
 

TAGs will call w/ worse in position soooo much it's not even funny. Most TAGfish will just think "hey I have position, I'll just call here w/ my QJs or 44 and trap them when I hit a big hand"

Re: Are we bluffing pf?
 

[ QUOTE ]
TAGs will call w/ worse in position soooo much it's not even funny. Most TAGfish will just think "hey I have position, I'll just call here w/ my QJs or 44 and trap them when I hit a big hand"

[/ QUOTE ]

Or..he is 3-betting me LIGHT. I'm gonna take my 76s and bluffshove almost every flop in his face. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Are we bluffing pf?
 

shpanko,

stop passing off legendary avatars as your own. you are not amplify and therefore have no reason to use that avatar.

good day sir...

Re: Are we bluffing pf?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm more inclined to 3bet JJ/AQ oop. I'm not sure if this is standard for what you guys do, but it works for me.

I HATE playing them OOP and I really don't want to see a flop and have the pot taken away from me.

In position I'm fine with cold calling with JJ. A couple nights ago I posted a hand where I cold-called TT in position against a TAG, and 3 posters came out the gate saying WHY DIDN'T YOU 3BET? I forgot to reply, but that's fairly standard to me.

I feel like when I 3bet TT and even JJ in position, I become completely lost postflop.

Obviously against donks I'll 3bet them for value, but against TAGS I'm reconsidering the way I 3bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is almost word for word what i do. one thing, though: i assume you're 3betting TT/JJ on BTN to a TAG (non-nit) CO open right?

Re: Are we bluffing pf?
 

Speedlimits (or anyone who does this), can you explain, in a bit more detail, why you like to 3 bet suited connectors?

My thoughts are that I would rather call, and take a flop with these guys in position. My reasons being: 3 betting with these is pretty much always a bluff, they have great value in position, and I'd hate to have to fold them if I get 4 bet. If I've decided to open up my 3 betting range against a certain player, I tend to do it more with hands like Q9s. Isn't it better to do it with a hand that is just a little worse than you'd be willing to call with? Or is my thinking here completely crazy?

Re: Are we bluffing pf?
 

I don't 3 bet UTG period unless its a squeeze. I think its a poor decision too tbh, ESPECIALLY with hands like JJ/AQo. I think those hands absolutely blow to 3 bet against an UTG range

Re: Are we bluffing pf?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Suited connectors have great value in position, and I'd hate to have to fold them if I get 4 bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

You must flop good.

I think suited connectors are pretty crap in general. They are fine to open with. They are fine to 3bet with against a light opener. But they don't hit often enough to call hoping to hit a good flop.

If you can outplay your opponent postflop then I guess they are fine as well.

Re: Are we bluffing pf?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Speedlimits (or anyone who does this), can you explain, in a bit more detail, why you like to 3 bet suited connectors?

My thoughts are that I would rather call, and take a flop with these guys in position. My reasons being: 3 betting with these is pretty much always a bluff, they have great value in position, and I'd hate to have to fold them if I get 4 bet. If I've decided to open up my 3 betting range against a certain player, I tend to do it more with hands like Q9s. Isn't it better to do it with a hand that is just a little worse than you'd be willing to call with? Or is my thinking here completely crazy?

[/ QUOTE ]

First off 3betting isn't something always done. You can just as easily cold call with suited connectors IP if you are confident in your postflop play. That being said, 3betting should definitely be in your arsenal. I would much rather 3bet a suited connector OOP than IP. Cold calling with suited connectors oop is definitely ev minus.

The problem with hands like Q9s is that they don't give you good feedback on the flop. This is a pretty important concept. If you flop a Queen in a 3bet pot you are pretty much lost if you start facing aggression. This doesn't happen with suited connectors.

Remember, you can 3bet with any 2 cards. And if your opponent folds it doesn't matter if you had 23o or AA. The important thing to take away is:

When you're called how does your hand play?

Suited connectors can make deceptive trips/flush draws/straight draws AND give immediate feedback on the flop.

Small pocket pairs are looking for sets.[i.e. immediate feedback]

We don't want to be playing a guessing game. The more information we have the less mistakes we will make. That is why 3betting suited connectors/small pckt pairs > Mid suited one-two gappers.