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-   -   Two Live Overpair vs. Flop Shove Scenarios (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=487016)

Todd Terry 08-26-2007 10:01 PM

Two Live Overpair vs. Flop Shove Scenarios
 
I've cast myself as Hero in one of these, Villian in the other. Hero and Villain both somewhat active in both situations, no other relevant reads.

Hand 1 - Foxwoods $3K MegaStack

Hero and Villian both have 19K, 100/200/25. MP who limps into every pot limps, Villain raises to 800, Hero raises to 2500 on button with QQ, MP folds, Villain calls. Flop 6 5 4 rainbow, Villian checks, Hero bets 4K, Villain shoves. Hero?

Hand 2 - Borgata $1500

Hero and Villain both have 9K, 50/100. Villain raises UTG to 250, gets 4 callers, Hero raises to 1100 with KK in SB. Villain calls, rest fold. Flop: 7h 5h 3c. Hero bets 2500, Villain shoves. Hero?

ZJ123 08-26-2007 10:05 PM

Re: Two Live Overpair vs. Flop Shove Scenarios
 
i talk myself into calling 1, 2 is a slightly easier call

nath 08-26-2007 10:07 PM

Re: Two Live Overpair vs. Flop Shove Scenarios
 
i think i call both, probably raise more preflop in both too

the idea is that the action so far should knock out most of the hands that are beating you PF, and it's easy to shove these boards with all sorts of holdings and these stacks

jlocdog 08-27-2007 12:35 AM

Re: Two Live Overpair vs. Flop Shove Scenarios
 
Todd Terry,

Both hands seem like a call. I don't think you played the KK hand by the way. Raise is way too small.

Nath,

"the idea is that the action so far should knock out most of the hands that are beating you PF"

Are you implying he folds out better then his holding?

bruce 08-27-2007 12:55 AM

Re: Two Live Overpair vs. Flop Shove Scenarios
 
The preflop action will elminate hands that outflop him.

Bruce

jlocdog 08-27-2007 01:04 AM

Re: Two Live Overpair vs. Flop Shove Scenarios
 
[ QUOTE ]
The preflop action will elminate hands that outflop him.

Bruce

[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure what this means. Are you saying we want worse hands to fold PF because we want to avoid being outflopped? If so, I don't agree.

bruce 08-27-2007 01:07 AM

Re: Two Live Overpair vs. Flop Shove Scenarios
 
Hand 1 is pretty close and my default mechanism is to fold.

Hand 2, the reraise from the small blind, makes the hand pretty transparent. Unless villian is exhibiting fifth level thinking, I would probably fold also.

Bruce

bruce 08-27-2007 01:09 AM

Re: Two Live Overpair vs. Flop Shove Scenarios
 
I probably shouldn't speak for Nath, but I think he meant that the preflop raising and reraising would eliminate hands that could outflop a big pocket pair.

Bruce

nath 08-27-2007 01:14 AM

Re: Two Live Overpair vs. Flop Shove Scenarios
 
All I'm saying is that hands that beat our hands on those boards consist almost entirely of pocket cards that should have been folded to the preflop reraise. Didn't think it was that complicated.

jlocdog 08-27-2007 01:22 AM

Re: Two Live Overpair vs. Flop Shove Scenarios
 
I just read it accenting the wrong part of the sentence I guess. Retardedly stoned. Got it now and agree.....thus my recommendation for the call.

ZeeJustin 08-27-2007 01:45 AM

Re: Two Live Overpair vs. Flop Shove Scenarios
 
Could use better information about the players, but as given I'd default to fold #1 and call #2.

The difference between being ahead of QQ or being behind KK, whichever is in the opponent's range, is crucial.

I don't like the bet of 4k in hand #1 unless you are trying to induce a shove. Bet smaller, like half pot. It makes Shania happy (I hate that phrase. Why am I using it?) to bet smaller, both with air and AA.

Todd Terry 08-27-2007 11:53 AM

Re: Two Live Overpair vs. Flop Shove Scenarios
 
Results:

I was Hero in hand 1. The guy had been at the table only a little while, seemed to know what he was doing, I thought it was possible that he had played AA or KK this way, also possible that he was capable of making a move with some sort of draw. I was at a loss as to what to do until I saw something which I thought was a very good indicator that he did not want me to call, so I did. I think I would have called anyway, but I'm not sure. He said, "Nice call", flipped over 88, and caught a 7 on the river, gg me.

I was Villian in Hand 2. I was pretty sure the guy had AA or KK given the pre raise size, and just didn't think he'd be able to fold the hand, especially because the board was so drawy that I could easily be pushing a big draw. I also thought a smooth call would be overly suspicious. Of course the guy folded. I flopped the nuts with 6d4d, easy game when you know what cards are coming. Bummer that no one called behind me pre, I thought everyone would after I did. Would anyone play it differently after the flop?

bruce 08-27-2007 12:20 PM

Re: Two Live Overpair vs. Flop Shove Scenarios
 
Hand 1: good read, good call, bad luck

Hand 2: You flopped gin, unless the villian catches runner runner for a flush he's drawing mighty thin. Calling and letting him bet the turn and/or river seems like a good option. You might as weel take advantage of position.
The down side to this is getting your straight counterfieted
or having a flush card come which might kill any future action.

Bruce


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