AT
 

30/60 6max

i riase utg with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. co coldcalls. button coldcalls. sb folds. bb calls.

flop: T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

bb checks. i bet. co calls. button raises. bb coldcalls. i 3-bet. co folds. button caps. bb calls. i call.

turn: 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

bb bets. i call. button just calls.

river: K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

bb bets. i fold.

Re: AT
 

raise the turn before folding this, but i probably wouldn't fold anyway...

Re: AT
 

I cant fold here. BB's play could easily be QT.

Re: AT
 

[ QUOTE ]
I cant fold here. BB's play could easily be QT.

[/ QUOTE ]

or at, jt, T9 etc....folding seems terrible.
edit-forgot you have btn behind you...that certainly makes the fold a little more understandable but still seems bad.

Re: AT
 

Assuming you have no reads or stats, I don't like this. I think we're way ahead on the turn, so I would definitely raise. The river sucks, but button will have an overplayed pocket pair fairly often. If button is known to be competent, the decisions are all really close, but I still think we have to call/fold the river. He can still easily have trips. You just called the turn, why wouldn't he with 9T-QT?

Re: AT
 

Yeah, I dont get the turn play unless you are putting BB on T8/88/66, which is not likely.

As played, BTN certainly looks like he's on a flush draw, but I think he could have the other T with no kicker often enough. If he just has Tx he should be worried on the turn after that flop action and a new player leading, so I don't think callnig is unreasonable for him on the turn.

Re: AT
 

You're representing an overpair, not trips, so this is a further case for not folding since you are underrepresented.

Re: AT
 

call/reraising the turn or what..?

Re: AT
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I dont get the turn play unless you are putting BB on T8/88/66, which is not likely.

As played, BTN certainly looks like he's on a flush draw, but I think he could have the other T with no kicker often enough. If he just has Tx he should be worried on the turn after that flop action and a new player leading, so I don't think callnig is unreasonable for him on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont think 66 is that unlikely.

That said Im still not folding here, and Im prob raising the turn

Re: AT
 

two points

1. assume these guys aren't morons which is kind of hard to assume sometimes, but these guys weren't morons.

2. how many tens are in the deck and what does bb betting the turn mean.

fwiw, thinking about the hand some more i think not raising the turn was a mistake in the long run, but at the time i was almost sure i was beat and wanted to see if the button would raise behind me. all that said, i am really surprised you guys think this is a easy river call, because i thought the complete opposite and everybody who has seen me play these days knows i never fold anything.

Re: AT
 

"1. assume these guys aren't morons which is kind of hard to assume sometimes, but these guys weren't morons."

well that changes alot actually. why didnt you include this read?

Re: AT
 

[ QUOTE ]
"1. assume these guys aren't morons which is kind of hard to assume sometimes, but these guys weren't morons."

well that changes alot actually. why didnt you include this read?

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't understand this at all. does this mean everybody's default reads these days is "moron" ? it just seems like everybody is so willing to just call everybody else bad players who will do ridiculous things without any real justification to it, as if the default read should be "super fish" as opposed to "okay whatever player."

Re: AT
 

I'd assume an unknown at 30/60 is a moron.

Re: AT
 

never give them too much credit.

Re: AT
 

I think this fold is bad. What hand are you putting the bb on here? 66? With the bb betting this turn it makes the river card meaningless. Not too many players will donk the turn after the flop action with just a flush draw. T8 is a possibility but there other T combos that you are ahead of. Getting 10 to 1 on a call here it just seems like you have the odds.

YT

Re: AT
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"1. assume these guys aren't morons which is kind of hard to assume sometimes, but these guys weren't morons."

well that changes alot actually. why didnt you include this read?

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't understand this at all. does this mean everybody's default reads these days is "moron" ? it just seems like everybody is so willing to just call everybody else bad players who will do ridiculous things without any real justification to it, as if the default read should be "super fish" as opposed to "okay whatever player."

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't get this either Chris. I don't think there are that many players here just ripping up the 30 online games. In fact, I would go so far as to say almost nobody is based on pretty big datamined samples.

Re: AT
 

[ QUOTE ]
30/60 6max

i riase utg with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. co coldcalls. button coldcalls. sb folds. bb calls.

flop: T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

bb checks. i bet. co calls. button raises. bb coldcalls. i 3-bet. co folds. button caps. bb calls. i call.

turn: 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

bb bets. i call. button just calls.

river: K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

bb bets. i fold.


[/ QUOTE ]

I believe the point is that if you have the BB beat, then what is the button capping the flop and calling the turn with besides a flush draw? And if you have the button beat, then what is the BB hanging around with, besides a flush draw?

Even if they are terrible, they both generated action independently, so it's hard to see one of them hanging around with some weird PP. Overplayed big pairs are almost out of the question because of preflop.

Nice fold. I couldn't pull this off myself.

Re: AT
 

are you calling if the river is a black 2?

Re: AT
 

[ QUOTE ]
I believe the point is that if you have the BB beat, then what is the button capping the flop and calling the turn with besides a flush draw? And if you have the button beat, then what is the BB hanging around with, besides a flush draw?

Even if they are terrible, they both generated action independently, so it's hard to see one of them hanging around with some weird PP. Overplayed big pairs are almost out of the question because of preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't think of anything BB could have played well. If he has a fd, his turn donk is completely retarded. There are other hands he could have where the turn donk would be less retarded, maybe even arguably good (T8?) but usually he is a sub-par player who will have a holding that will surprise us (some pp or even other crap). Button's flop cap and turn call does mean he probably has the flush draw. This does not make the river fold good, however, because I don't think it means he has the fd more than 60-70% of the time. He could have the other T, or an over(slow)played AA-QQ that realizes it might be in trouble on the turn. You're probably beat on the river, but getting ~14:1, it's a pretty bad fold.

Re: AT
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I believe the point is that if you have the BB beat, then what is the button capping the flop and calling the turn with besides a flush draw? And if you have the button beat, then what is the BB hanging around with, besides a flush draw?

Even if they are terrible, they both generated action independently, so it's hard to see one of them hanging around with some weird PP. Overplayed big pairs are almost out of the question because of preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't think of anything BB could have played well. If he has a fd, his turn donk is completely retarded. There are other hands he could have where the turn donk would be less retarded, maybe even arguably good (T8?) but usually he is a sub-par player who will have a holding that will surprise us (some pp or even other crap). Button's flop cap and turn call does mean he probably has the flush draw. This does not make the river fold good, however, because I don't think it means he has the fd more than 60-70% of the time. He could have the other T, or an over(slow)played AA-QQ that realizes it might be in trouble on the turn. You're probably beat on the river, but getting ~14:1, it's a pretty bad fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right, but if he has the other T, (remembering that this is at most 30-40% of the time) then what can the BB possibly have that we beat? Even bad plays make sense in somebody's head. Only beatable hands I can possibly see a bad BB having is 99 or 77 and it's a real reach.

And aren't the cases where he slowplayed AA preflop and THEN overplayed it postflop rare enough, discounted by the fact that the BB may beat us ANYWAY even after all that, make it less than 1/100? Those probabilities get small quickly when you mulitply.

Re: AT
 

if my math is not stupid the pot is offering you over 10 to 1 you surly are winning this pot more often than that.

Re: AT
 

As played I don't like the river fold at all. But I definitely raise the turn.