TTT 5/T
 

villain is a meh regular

FullTiltPoker Game #3360180825: Table Calanda (6 max) - $5/$10 - No Limit Hold'em - 13:08:32 ET - 2007/08/25
Seat 1: HAAANH ($1,107)
Seat 2: Martine23 ($940), is sitting out
Seat 3: ken the cow ($1,336.50)
Seat 4: InMemoriam ($1,056)
Seat 5: HUGO_BUSTO ($985)
Seat 6: rjm1 ($1,016.25)
rjm1 posts the small blind of $5
HAAANH posts the big blind of $10
The button is in seat #5
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to HAAANH [Ts Td]
ken the cow folds
InMemoriam raises to $35
HUGO_BUSTO folds
rjm1 folds
HAAANH calls $25
*** FLOP *** [Tc 3h 6s]
HUGO_BUSTO adds $15
HAAANH checks
InMemoriam bets $60
HAAANH calls $60
*** TURN *** [Tc 3h 6s] [Js]
HAAANH checks
InMemoriam checks
*** RIVER *** [Tc 3h 6s Js] [9c]
HAAANH checks
InMemoriam bets $140
HAAANH has 15 seconds left to act
HAAANH raises to $500

??

Re: TTT 5/T
 

seems to me like 60 bucks in by the river can't be good at all. what about leading the turn?

Re: TTT 5/T
 

i think i checkraise turn if hes aggressive and lead if hes moderate, flop c/c i standard for me here

Re: TTT 5/T
 

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seems to me like 60 bucks in by the river can't be good at all. what about leading the turn?

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He's gonna bluff most scare cards (dunno about a jack), and I don't wanna be leading the turn with the lower part of my range. I'm more curious about the river than previous streets.

Re: TTT 5/T
 

I like your line for mixing it up's sake. Need to do this every once in a while.

Re: TTT 5/T
 

I think the hand plays itself after the flop.

Re: TTT 5/T
 

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I like your line for mixing it up's sake. Need to do this every once in a while.

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so u usually c/r flop, or...

Re: TTT 5/T
 

calling your "continuation" with KQ possibility? or hes got air imo

Re: TTT 5/T
 

i'd usually c/r flop but flatting is fine sometimes. i would just rather be in position to flat.

Re: TTT 5/T
 

yeah i think this should really probably be your standard line, c/ring this flop with TT just doesn't seem to be a good standard play since you got the deck crushed and most of your range on flatting this flop is going to be hands you're folding to a 2nd barrel. i mean, if OOP c/ring is a big part of your game (pretty sure it isn't), then yeah you should be doing it with TT more often and of course you C/R once in a while but def not as a standard. i think c/ring is way way better with 33/66 than with TT here.

leading river really i think is not good either. he's rarely calling with 9's and that's basically the only hand you're looking to get value out of, and he's going to bet the river a lot with air to try to get you fold 88-, a pair of 6's, maybe ace high or something.

i mean, if he pushes you probably have to fold, but he could have 99 here since your line is 33/66 just as easily as TT and it'd be so dubious for you to flatall OOP with a gutshot and overs or redraws or anything. plus he could put you on JT/9T since flop, turn, and river are pretty consistent with that as well... eh...

i dunno, i'd probably just call a shove anyway and berate him in chat if i lost. sick life.

Re: TTT 5/T
 

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seems to me like 60 bucks in by the river can't be good at all. what about leading the turn?

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He's gonna bluff most scare cards (dunno about a jack), and I don't wanna be leading the turn with the lower part of my range. I'm more curious about the river than previous streets.

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i think in a case like this, with this board development, I'm not sure if its a good idea to go for a river CR after missing a turn CR here.

Re: TTT 5/T
 

i think this is a good spot to cr flop

Re: TTT 5/T
 

can you explain that please?
dry board, topset, why are we checkraising without specific reads

Re: TTT 5/T
 

i guess cuz of [whoever] theorem which says c/ring blank flops is usually air trying to rep a set i think that you think that w/e ad infinitum

Re: TTT 5/T
 

I like c/ring the flop here against a thinking player most of the time....but as played I think your line is best. nh.

Re: TTT 5/T
 

[ QUOTE ]
yeah i think this should really probably be your standard line, c/ring this flop with TT just doesn't seem to be a good standard play since you got the deck crushed and most of your range on flatting this flop is going to be hands you're folding to a 2nd barrel. i mean, if OOP c/ring is a big part of your game (pretty sure it isn't), then yeah you should be doing it with TT more often and of course you C/R once in a while but def not as a standard. i think c/ring is way way better with 33/66 than with TT here.

leading river really i think is not good either. he's rarely calling with 9's and that's basically the only hand you're looking to get value out of, and he's going to bet the river a lot with air to try to get you fold 88-, a pair of 6's, maybe ace high or something.

i mean, if he pushes you probably have to fold, but he could have 99 here since your line is 33/66 just as easily as TT and it'd be so dubious for you to flatall OOP with a gutshot and overs or redraws or anything. plus he could put you on JT/9T since flop, turn, and river are pretty consistent with that as well... eh...

i dunno, i'd probably just call a shove anyway and berate him in chat if i lost. sick life.

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yea this is pretty spot on except that I think check raising 333 and 666 is not THAT much different from TTT and I'm gonna coldcall with close to the same frequency

Re: TTT 5/T
 

i like the entire line. the river c/r is really dynamic tho and if he shoves there are a lot of factors that would go into you estimating the range he puts u on so its really situation dependent leaning towards a call imo

without specific history or a read im not convinced that c/r the flop is the best value line

c the turn is obv. given his flop range contains lots of air and overpairs which he'll bet on the J

leading the river is lame after he checks the turn

Re: TTT 5/T
 

well i guess "way way" is off but with 33/66, at least you're going to get called one street or two with JT/9T sometimes, whereas with TT the only legitimate time you're stacking someone is vs an overpair or an underset (legitimate meaning discluding situations where you get somebody to try to bluff you w/ air or a gutshot or something)

Re: TTT 5/T
 

i like this line just fine

Re: TTT 5/T
 

What worse hand plays like this and then calls the river check raise?

Re: TTT 5/T
 

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What worse hand plays like this and then calls the river check raise?

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Q9+? hero is clearly repping a bluff when neither of them usually have a good hand here.

Re: TTT 5/T
 

3bet preflop
donk flop or at least donk turn

Re: TTT 5/T
 

Flop is way standard. C/ring here is pretty meh, with the board crippled.

33/66 is significantly better to c/r with, just because there are 3x as many Tx combos out there.

I know it looks a little results oriented, but I really like a turn lead, for a couple of reasons.

a) J really isn't much of a scare card, so I dunno how often he fires air.
b) A [censored] of hands just picked up gutshots or better, and he may well try to semibluff us with these draws or call incorrectly if we lead, but may take a freebie if we check.
c) The same reasons that you probably don't want to lead the lower part of your range are good reasons to lead with the top of it. [censored] balance when your reads are weak, just see what he does, and adjust from there.

I don't hate the check on occasion, but it sure sucks when he checks back for a freebie that might cost us a lot of chips.

River seems pretty standard as played. Hardly any hands that he calls a bet with that he won't bet himself.

Re: TTT 5/T
 

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What worse hand plays like this and then calls the river check raise?

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9T, 99, 96 are about it. This is part of what I was getting at; if we arrive at the river with this line do we still check-raise? He shoved and I folded, in retrospect I think this is a very good line if I just call the river, as weak as it seems.

Re: TTT 5/T
 

What about any of the Tx/Jx hands that he checked the turn with for pot control, then decided that you were FOS when you c/red?

Re: TTT 5/T
 

hmm, an interesting question would be how to best balance your range such that you can donk this turn with TT. maybe if you call the flop with 55~ and your hand is probably good, but don't want to give a free card & can't take any heat from a draw that he'd bet the turn with? but i guess we'd have to do it very rarely since we also rarely have sets on this board, which makes it hard to implement simply because you'd either forget to do it entirely or probably do it too much.

Re: TTT 5/T
 

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hmm, an interesting question would be how to best balance your range such that you can donk this turn with TT. maybe if you call the flop with 55~ and your hand is probably good, but don't want to give a free card & can't take any heat from a draw that he'd bet the turn with? but i guess we'd have to do it very rarely since we also rarely have sets on this board, which makes it hard to implement simply because you'd either forget to do it entirely or probably do it too much.

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it's already balanced by peoples' preconceived notions of what the c/c-lead line means

Re: TTT 5/T
 

against people who have played a lot of hands with you and have never seen you do a c/c lead turn line before, i think balancing actually matters quite a bit. obviously not in mid stakes though.

Re: TTT 5/T
 

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an interesting question would be how to best balance your range such that you can donk this turn with TT.

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It depends so much on how he reacts to it, and if we get to showdown.

Balance for the sake of balance is usually far from optimal, IMO, regardless of opposition.

A few other times you might want to use this line:
a) Blocking bets with draws
b) Top pair
c) OOP floats/bluffs

[ QUOTE ]
against people who have played a lot of hands with you and have never seen you do a c/c lead turn line before, i think balancing actually matters quite a bit.

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How do you figure?

Re: TTT 5/T
 

I'd just lead the river. And if I've got a bluffy image then I c/r the flop all day.

Re: TTT 5/T
 

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I'd just lead the river. And if I've got a bluffy image then I c/r the flop all day.

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cts, i REALLY hate leading the river here.

if you check the turn the river is a mandatory check, imo

Re: TTT 5/T
 

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I'd just lead the river. And if I've got a bluffy image then I c/r the flop all day.

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cts, i REALLY hate leading the river here.

if you check the turn the river is a mandatory check, imo

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So do you like check raising or just calling the river?

Re: TTT 5/T
 

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I'd just lead the river. And if I've got a bluffy image then I c/r the flop all day.

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cts, i REALLY hate leading the river here.

if you check the turn the river is a mandatory check, imo

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So do you like check raising or just calling the river?

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check raise for SURE

but i like CC flop donk turn the best i think, cr sometimes if the guy is prone to not believe me, and this line right around the same-

i hate cc, chch, bet-

Re: TTT 5/T
 

i think this is an interesting hand

Re: TTT 5/T
 

I'm a big fan of river check raises for value, but I don't like it in this spot where villain can have you beat and you will be stuck. People talking about villain having 99, if hero led villain would always raise that and you win the same amount. He's simply not going to call a river check-raise with something like AJ, and this player I don't see bluffing the river with air extremely often (he's a bit weak tight). So by leading I think you would get a similar amount of value from most of his hands and avoid losing a whole stack if he backdoored a straight (although I would assume he would 2 barrel KQ almost always). I would like it if the river were a card from 2-8.

Re: TTT 5/T
 

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Flop is way standard. C/ring here is pretty meh, with the board crippled.

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disagree. its a dry board and in the games we play nobody believes anybody else anyway. building a pot is better than "letting him catch up" imo.

honestly i think this line is fine to mix it up but theres no way you can call it standard man.

Re: TTT 5/T
 

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Flop is way standard. C/ring here is pretty meh, with the board crippled.

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disagree. its a dry board and in the games we play nobody believes anybody else anyway. building a pot is better than "letting him catch up" imo.

honestly i think this line is fine to mix it up but theres no way you can call it standard man.

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i dont c/r much with trash, so i dont see much of a reason to do it when i have a set. how you play your big hands should really depend on how you play your not so big hands

Re: TTT 5/T
 

i agree w/ that.

Re: TTT 5/T
 

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Flop is way standard. C/ring here is pretty meh, with the board crippled.

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disagree. its a dry board and in the games we play nobody believes anybody else anyway. building a pot is better than "letting him catch up" imo.

honestly i think this line is fine to mix it up but theres no way you can call it standard man.

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Meh, there are so many ways that a turn card can help you: it might induce a bluff, give him a draw that he might chase with bad odds/semi-bluff with, catch top pair/two pair/underset, give him a draw to put you on. Only a few down sides: Overcards might fall for a pair/overpair.

Really the only hands that are affected at all by what we do are overpairs that might get scared off by a few turn cards, and overcards/air, which we're generally happy to give a freebee too, as it gives him some rope.

Given PF, I def think c/c flop lead lots of turns, but check some of them (particularly A and K) is a great line.

Re: TTT 5/T
 

this is why you need to coach me! i hardly slowplay oop. even on dry boards :/.