Am I a scumbag, B&M?
 

Everyday I see posts here where ppl take some blatant angleshot and then post about it while acting innocent. That is the inspiration for this post.

Late in my 1/2 session, some 2/5 player decides to slum it at my table for awhile. He ends up sitting directly to my right, and goes crazy, stealing almost every pot. It's not too long before I realize he's either drunk or not paying attention, and peeks at his hole cards with only one hand. Without any effort on my part, I can see his hole cards in 4/5 hands.

After half an hour of watching him steal pots w/ 8 high, I start reraising him light PF to isolate and take him down. I never hit a big score against him, seeing as he consistently hit 2 pr and i was running completely card-dead. Ultimately I probably took 60-75 from him. I only kept this up for 45 minutes before this player went BUSTO against some other fish who flopped a monster.

My question: am I a scumbag? I don't have an obligation to tell him to hide his cards, but does this border on douchebaggery? This feels like more of a grey area than some of the other moral questions i see here, but i may be biased.

Re: Am I a scumbag, B&M?
 

Unless he had done something specifically horrible to me I would tell him something like this while the cards are being shuffled, "I think I got a flash fo your hole cards last hand, you should probably cover them a little better."

Re: Am I a scumbag, B&M?
 

[ QUOTE ]
My question: am I a scumbag?

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

The spoils of war go to the victor.
He should have concealed his cards.

Re: Am I a scumbag, B&M?
 

I have had this happen on occasion. My standard is I tell the person once that I can see his cards. If it continues that I can see the cards without moving into a better vantage point then I use the information to my advantage.

As a side note I have told some people (usually old men, or nice people) more than once. Mean people or jerks get the standard one time only.

Re: Am I a scumbag, B&M?
 

I should add that this player was entirely capable of shoving 150BB at any point with complete air. There was potentially a ton of money to be made in this situation.

Re: Am I a scumbag, B&M?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I have had this happen on occasion. My standard is I tell the person once that I can see his cards. If it continues that I can see the cards without moving into a better vantage point then I use the information to my advantage.

As a side note I have told some people (usually old men, or nice people) more than once. Mean people or jerks get the standard one time only.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds most reasonable response to me

Re: Am I a scumbag, B&M?
 

Yes, tell him the first time you noticed it.

Although I have been told 'so don't look then' on a couple of occasions, after which I won't say anything any more.

Re: Am I a scumbag, B&M?
 

Scumbag, not so sure.

Angle-shooter, 100%.

I don't really see the gray area that you refer to, any way you look at this situation you are clearly taking advantage of the situation. The reason I say not so sure about the scumbag part is that it seems a certain level of shadiness is acceptable in poker.

Re: Am I a scumbag, B&M?
 

All,

Its only angle-shooting if the op went out of his way to see the action players cards.

If action player did not conceal his hand shame on him.

Its like they teach you in 1l Caveat Emptor.

Re: Am I a scumbag, B&M?
 

If a player is clearly an experienced B&M player, and is acting stupid on purpose, I have zero sympathy and wouldn't help them.

If someone is clearly new to play, I'm more than happy to help them protect themselves.

Re: Am I a scumbag, B&M?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If someone is clearly new to play, I'm more than happy to help them protect themselves.

[/ QUOTE ]
You'd be a grade-A scumbag if you did this to a noob.

Re: Am I a scumbag, B&M?
 

His problem, not yours. If he's a regular but can't conceal his cards properly, so be it, use the info to your advantage.

Re: Am I a scumbag, B&M?
 

If it was a new player, I would tell him/her.

Against this guy OTOH, ship it.

Re: Am I a scumbag, B&M?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I should add that this player was entirely capable of shoving 150BB at any point with complete air. There was potentially a ton of money to be made in this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is related to how I only steal from rich old ladies.

Re: Am I a scumbag, B&M?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I should add that this player was entirely capable of shoving 150BB at any point with complete air. There was potentially a ton of money to be made in this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

So the ethics change if you can make a lot of money?

Re: Am I a scumbag, B&M?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I should add that this player was entirely capable of shoving 150BB at any point with complete air. There was potentially a ton of money to be made in this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

So the ethics change if you can make a lot of money?

[/ QUOTE ]

I wanted ppl to be aware of the scope of the situation. The ability to potentially take down a monster pot w/ Ace high is significant here.

Re: Am I a scumbag, B&M?
 

No you're not a scumbag. Dude should protect his own hand. Serves him right.

Re: Am I a scumbag, B&M?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I should add that this player was entirely capable of shoving 150BB at any point with complete air. There was potentially a ton of money to be made in this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

The fact you would add this caveat only cements your scumbag status.

Re: Am I a scumbag, B&M?
 

lol @ $300 being a ton of money worthy of bold font

Re: Am I a scumbag, B&M?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If a player is clearly an experienced B&M player, and is acting stupid on purpose, I have zero sympathy and wouldn't help them.

If someone is clearly new to play, I'm more than happy to help them protect themselves.

[/ QUOTE ]

What about the big gray area in between 'clearly experienced' and 'noob'?

b

Re: Am I a scumbag, B&M?
 

I usually tend to side with the nitty older guys in areas of tipping, etiquette, etc... but this is the one area where I'm with the young punks.

Protecting your hand is a basic skill, like hand reading. If a guy proves to be incompetent at protecting his cards and reading the board, I'm not going to help him do either. "You shouldn't have cold-called with bottom pair when there was four to a straight and four to a flush on the river... oh, and I could see your cards."

Re: Am I a scumbag, B&M?
 

It's a fine line when you're seeing his cards for the 3rd and 4th time in a short period of time.

The 1st time is an accident. 2nd time is a little less so(it's time to say something at this point). When it gets to the 3rd and 4th time, subconciously, you're now looking for it. It's not innocent because you know you're likely to see the cards. You don't innocently see his cards that often. You are very aware of being able to see them at that point. Personally I tend to look away if I catch a glimpse of white. I'd just rather not beat the game that way. It feels wrong to me to have an unfair advantage over the other players in this way.

I've told many people to protect their cards. I tell them once, making sure they know they are visible. After that, they're on their own.

The size of his stack is irrelevant.

Brings up an interesting scenario though. I wonder how this would go over with the table: You see his cards often but don't say anything. You start isolating him with crap. You get into a multiway pot and bounce others out on the turn knowing you have the guy beat HU with some low pair or high card. You win and someone calls the IWTSTH rule and sees you both playing crap. I'd like to hear you explain to the table how and why you played your hand that way.

b

Re: Am I a scumbag, B&M?
 

My policy is to warn sober players once, then use the advantage if I do not need to move to gain it.

In the case of drunk players, I deem them to have made the decision to play impaired, and therefore accept the consequences of their foolishness.

Re: Am I a scumbag, B&M?
 

not a scumbag.
I tell beginners and everyone at 4-8 limit or less.
If they play or lot of poker, or choose to play higher stakes, then it's their responsibility to protect their hand.

Re: Am I a scumbag, B&M?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't really see the gray area that you refer to, any way you look at this situation you are clearly taking advantage of the situation. The reason I say not so sure about the scumbag part is that it seems a certain level of shadiness is acceptable in poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

How is this different than an extremely reliable tell?

Re: Am I a scumbag, B&M?
 

[ QUOTE ]
not a scumbag.
I tell beginners and everyone at 4-8 limit or less.
If they play or lot of poker, or choose to play higher stakes, then it's their responsibility to protect their hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why should the limit matter?

If anything, one benefit of telling some newb donator on a higher limit is that it might ease the seriousness of the game for him a little bit. Who really wants to sit in a game that's overly serious and cutthroat to the max? Lot of donators don't really like that type of game. It has an effect of tightening their purse strings.

b

Re: Am I a scumbag, B&M?
 

it's their choice to sit down at a "higher" limit table.

when playing higher limits the money matters. That extra bet might buy a tank of gas. And since they have made the decision to play higher without learning the basics, then I'm happy to use the $ for a tank of gas.

also, I want the money now rather than hoping I might get it if they play again someday. In fact, and few will say this, I'd rather they lose the first time time and never play again so they don't become a donator for life.

Re: Am I a scumbag, B&M?
 

[ QUOTE ]
it's their choice to sit down at a "higher" limit table.

[/ QUOTE ]

So what? It's their choice to sit down and gamble money regardless of the limit.

[ QUOTE ]
when playing higher limits the money matters.

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To you. Which could also hinder your play at higher limits.

Technically, the limit shouldn't matter at all.

[ QUOTE ]
That extra bet might buy a tank of gas.

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't a good way of looking at the chips on the table.

[ QUOTE ]
also, I want the money now rather than hoping I might get it if they play again someday.

[/ QUOTE ]

One way to do that is by endearing yourself to them more. It helps loosen up the purse strings where being a hardass nit has the tendency to tighten them. Which makes it a little easier to win more from them on the given day. It's not a bad thing to be the donators main 'bud' on a table.

b

Re: Am I a scumbag, B&M?
 

1. Not a scumbag
2. 2/5 player is douche for not protecting his hand
3. This is poker not go fish - there is no reason to tell someone that you can see their hand. Their fault not yours.

Why not keep an advantage? Anybody that says any different is an idiot - although an honest idiot - but this isn't an honesty game, its a dishonesty game.

Getting a peak at someone else's cards is not cheating. It's free information, thats it. What you choose to do with that info is up to you.

Re: Am I a scumbag, B&M?
 

[ QUOTE ]
. I'd like to hear you explain to the table how and why you played your hand that way.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey buddy, you play your hand your way, I will play mine my way. I knew I had you, I could see into your soul

Re: Am I a scumbag, B&M?
 

Not a scumbag!
Ask yourself, would that guy tell you if the situation were reversed? I play hard against my opponents. My winnings come from bad, drunk players, from their mistakes. Not from good players.
Sorry, that's poker in a cardroom. Were it in a homegame, I'd tell the person in a heartbeat.

Re: Am I a scumbag, B&M?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I should add that this player was entirely capable of shoving 150BB at any point with complete air. There was potentially a ton of money to be made in this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Man:Will you sleep with me for $1,000,000?
Woman:...okay.
Man:How about $20?
Woman:I'm not a whore!
Man:You're first answer proved you are, we're just negotiating now.

(joke stolen from older B&M thread)

The amount of money/limits does not change right/wrong. Tell him once, and then if you feel it's okay to look, I can't stop you.

Re: Am I a scumbag, B&M?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
. I'd like to hear you explain to the table how and why you played your hand that way.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey buddy, you play your hand your way, I will play mine my way. I knew I had you, I could see into your soul

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

b

Re: Am I a scumbag, B&M?
 

Best thing to do, in my judgment, is to tell him and tell him you're not going to say anything again.

Re: Am I a scumbag, B&M?
 

[ QUOTE ]
1. Not a scumbag
2. 2/5 player is douche for not protecting his hand
3. This is poker not go fish - there is no reason to tell someone that you can see their hand. Their fault not yours.

Why not keep an advantage? Anybody that says any different is an idiot - although an honest idiot - but this isn't an honesty game, its a dishonesty game.

Getting a peak at someone else's cards is not cheating. It's free information, thats it. What you choose to do with that info is up to you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Soooo if 2 buddies sat down. One guy was showing the other guy his cards it's just the luck of the seating and no one should mind? Ok. I'm sure you wouldn't mind that. After all, you could've switched seats prior to them sitting down and gotten a prime seat. You snoozed, you lost. No harm done.

It being a 'dishonest' game I guess that means you should try to win no matter what. Including shooting angles, shorting the pot and everything else.

b

Re: Am I a scumbag, B&M?
 

No

Re: Am I a scumbag, B&M?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I should add that this player was entirely capable of shoving 150BB at any point with complete air. There was potentially a ton of money to be made in this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

So the ethics change if you can make a lot of money?

[/ QUOTE ]

I wanted ppl to be aware of the scope of the situation. The ability to potentially take down a monster pot w/ Ace high is significant here.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL.

you have to ask yourself...
 

Do I want to win that way?

If someone is exposing their hand, I always warn them once. Nice old ladies, twice. Hott chicks, well that depends if they brought their boyfriend or not. I always say "I don't want to win that way."

If they are being a total douche, maybe not.

So how far across the line are you willing to go to win?

Re: you have to ask yourself...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Do I want to win that way?

[/ QUOTE ]

YES!

The only time I would comment on this is if the player is obviously a noob, or if the player had a physical disability of some sort that made concealing hole cards difficult.

I just do not find this to be cheating or angleshooting in any way. While they are minimal, their are certain physical skills related to playing poker, particularly in a live cardroom. IMO, taking advantage of a player who is weak in those areas is no different than taking advantage of a player who weak in that he is limping too often UTG.


As a matter of fact, here is Mike Caro's opinion on this subject, from his Draw Poker contribution from SS1:

[ QUOTE ]



Try to spot players who sit upright and who seem attentive. Avoid them. Select a table where there are distractions - an attractive woman, a boisterous drunk - because they will bother your opponents more than they will hurt you. Players changing seats impulsively are apt to be superstitious. Play in their games. Players exposing cards will be helpful. Choose the table with the biggest pots and the most players per pot........


If there's alot of conversation unrelated to poker, good - they aren't concentrating...

p 57 Doyle Brunson's Super System
Game Selection



[/ QUOTE ]

~Mike

Re: Am I a scumbag, B&M?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If it was a new player, I would tell him/her.

Against this guy OTOH, ship it.

[/ QUOTE ]