I disagree with Bob Ciaffone. Who is right?
 

What happens in your card room when a player misses the small blind only and wants to post in late position? I would say that a posted small blind is always dead to the center, Bob says it is live up to the amount of the minimum bet. Here is the excerpt from Robert's Rules. There are a couple of other spots I disagree with Bob, but I was really suprised that he took this position.


[ QUOTE ]
A player who misses any or all blinds can resume play by either posting all the blinds missed or waiting for the big blind. If you choose to post the total amount of the blinds, an amount up to the size of the minimum opening bet is live. The remainder is taken by the dealer to the center of the pot and is not part of your bet. When it is your next turn to act, you have the option to raise.


[/ QUOTE ]

Re: I disagree with Bob Ciaffone. Who is right?
 

At the hustler a missed blind requires a full post with the amount = to the small blind put in the middle. Option is allowed once action is back to player.

Re: I disagree with Bob Ciaffone. Who is right?
 

you

Re: I disagree with Bob Ciaffone. Who is right?
 

Missed small blind only is dead my room and everywhere else I've seen it.

Re: I disagree with Bob Ciaffone. Who is right?
 

Missed small blind is dead and that's the only scheme that makes sense to me. Otherwise you get to play your small blind from much better position without penalty.

Re: I disagree with Bob Ciaffone. Who is right?
 

It would have to be dead. Otherwise I would get dealt out every small blind and post behind. This is the reason for it being dead in every cardroom I've played in, isn't it?

I always thought that It would be more profitable to post behind everytime and never post if front of the button. I'm sure you would make everyone mad, and once everyone caught on there would be no more posting in front. amirite or no?

Re: I disagree with Bob Ciaffone. Who is right?
 

At red rock station the small blind is definitely live.
Even more perplexing: a few times I got up to go to the bathroom or take a call after posting the BB, but missing the small, and they let me post the SB - live- on the button. Which makes it so if you ever needed to get up for one hand only (the bathrooms are really close to the limit tables) you could abuse this rule. Other times though they kept the button where it was, made me post a SB just to the left of it, and had three blinds. So it depends on the dealer.
I hope I am explaining this correctly.....

Re: I disagree with Bob Ciaffone. Who is right?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Missed small blind is dead and that's the only scheme that makes sense to me. Otherwise you get to play your small blind from much better position without penalty.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am sure Bob knows this also, that is why I was so suprised to see he has it written that way.

Re: I disagree with Bob Ciaffone. Who is right?
 

[ QUOTE ]
At red rock station the small blind is definitely live.
Even more perplexing: a few times I got up to go to the bathroom or take a call after posting the BB, but missing the small, and they let me post the SB - live- on the button. Which makes it so if you ever needed to get up for one hand only (the bathrooms are really close to the limit tables) you could abuse this rule. Other times though they kept the button where it was, made me post a SB just to the left of it, and had three blinds. So it depends on the dealer.
I hope I am explaining this correctly.....

[/ QUOTE ]

I have seen it live in rooms with small games where they don't bother to know how things "should" be.

Re: I disagree with Bob Ciaffone. Who is right?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Missed small blind is dead and that's the only scheme that makes sense to me. Otherwise you get to play your small blind from much better position without penalty.

[/ QUOTE ]I was going to say exactly this, but then I thought about how you would be giving up your button.
I think it would still be a disadvantage to skip your SB and button and post SB in cutoff, then to play SB, button, cutoff normally. Am I wrong here? I guess it could depend on the game.

Re: I disagree with Bob Ciaffone. Who is right?
 

[ QUOTE ]
that is why I was so surprised to see he has it written that way.

[/ QUOTE ]

RR - if the post was live then the SB has a significant advantage by always sitting out and instead playing the cutoff with a 1/2 bet, this would be the worlds greatest angle if it was allowed. Bob must have had a senior moment, he knows better than this.

Re: I disagree with Bob Ciaffone. Who is right?
 

[ QUOTE ]
At red rock station the small blind is definitely live.
Even more perplexing: a few times I got up to go to the bathroom or take a call after posting the BB, but missing the small, and they let me post the SB - live- on the button. Which makes it so if you ever needed to get up for one hand only (the bathrooms are really close to the limit tables) you could abuse this rule. Other times though they kept the button where it was, made me post a SB just to the left of it, and had three blinds. So it depends on the dealer.
I hope I am explaining this correctly.....

[/ QUOTE ]

I've played at Red Rock, I don't recall this to be true.

Re: I disagree with Bob Ciaffone. Who is right?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
At red rock station the small blind is definitely live.
Even more perplexing: a few times I got up to go to the bathroom or take a call after posting the BB, but missing the small, and they let me post the SB - live- on the button. Which makes it so if you ever needed to get up for one hand only (the bathrooms are really close to the limit tables) you could abuse this rule. Other times though they kept the button where it was, made me post a SB just to the left of it, and had three blinds. So it depends on the dealer.
I hope I am explaining this correctly.....

[/ QUOTE ]

I have seen it live in rooms with small games where they don't bother to know how things "should" be.

[/ QUOTE ]

For being a fairly big room with what are considered to be good dealers, there is a lot of variation in what the dealers think are the rules there.
For instance, I have seen dealers still as of three weeks ago (when I last played) not know what the friggin cap was on a limit game betting round!
Another example: there is always confusion about the "unlimited betting when it is heads-up rule" - it doesn't have to be headsup going into the street to be unlimited like at some rooms - it just has to be headsup when the cap is reached. I've seen that applied both ways at RR.

Re: I disagree with Bob Ciaffone. Who is right?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Missed small blind is dead and that's the only scheme that makes sense to me. Otherwise you get to play your small blind from much better position without penalty.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am sure Bob knows this also, that is why I was so suprised to see he has it written that way.

[/ QUOTE ]

But don't you miss your button hand and have to re-enter at the cut-off? You're skipping the best possible position on the table each orbit to avoid paying the blinds in turn? I'd love it if someone wanted to do that to me -- let it be live...

Re: I disagree with Bob Ciaffone. Who is right?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
At red rock station the small blind is definitely live.
Even more perplexing: a few times I got up to go to the bathroom or take a call after posting the BB, but missing the small, and they let me post the SB - live- on the button. Which makes it so if you ever needed to get up for one hand only (the bathrooms are really close to the limit tables) you could abuse this rule. Other times though they kept the button where it was, made me post a SB just to the left of it, and had three blinds. So it depends on the dealer.
I hope I am explaining this correctly.....

[/ QUOTE ]

I've played at Red Rock, I don't recall this to be true.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you mean whether the SB is live - it is defintely live - I would bet 235420398503285 million dollars on that. Just trust me on the whole post - before the rake increase pissed me off I played exclusively in the limit games there.

Re: I disagree with Bob Ciaffone. Who is right?
 

It's live in a lot of vegas rooms.

Re: I disagree with Bob Ciaffone. Who is right?
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's live in a lot of vegas rooms.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which ones? I haven't come across this before. I've probably played at RR 3-5 times and never noticed it, I know its not that way in any of the rooms you or I usually frequent - is it that way at places like Sahara?

Re: I disagree with Bob Ciaffone. Who is right?
 

missing your button is a rather significant penalty

Re: I disagree with Bob Ciaffone. Who is right?
 

RR > Bob Ciaffone! Period.

Re: I disagree with Bob Ciaffone. Who is right?
 

I've had this discussion repeatedly on my staff, and I think that Ciaffone has it right.

The key principle is to protect the other players from a forced raise.

When posting BB+SB, the SB must be posted dead. Otherwise, the other players would have to call a forced raise (SB amount) on top of the regular bet (BB) to enter the pot.

When posting only the SB, this is no longer the case, so the SB should remain live (just as if it had been posted normally).


q/q

Re: I disagree with Bob Ciaffone. Who is right?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Missed small blind is dead and that's the only scheme that makes sense to me. Otherwise you get to play your small blind from much better position without penalty.

[/ QUOTE ]

But there's already an inherent penalty in doing this: you get two less hands every round.


q/q

bob is right, just about everyone else has it wrong
 

Virtually every cardroom I've ever been in makes the sb dead, even if only the sb was missed. But why?

If a player misses BOTH blinds, and wants to come back in before their bb, the sb needs to be dead because if it were live the total would exceed the bb. This makes sense.

Now, what if only the sb is missed? What logical reason can their be to penalize this player by making them post a dead sb? I can't think of one. Their missed blind does not exceed the size of the minimum bet, so why should it be dead anyway? In games with only one blind a missed blind would be live, as it doesn't exceed the minimum bet. Why the extra penalty in two blind games? It doesn't make any sense and should be changed.

In many rooms, if a live straddle is allowed, then both blinds can be made up and are both live when contained in the live straddle. Again, this makes sense. About the only good thing harrahs has ever done for poker was adopt this rule for cash games during wsop (tho I'm not certain the true source of that rule).

In one room I know of, if the player comes back on the next hand after missing their sb, a missed sb can be posted inbetween, but the button skips over them. This rule is fine.

I've been in one room where the sb can be posted live. Never caused any problem. That's one that got it right. Why does everyone else have it so very wrong?

I guarantee one thing, there's a coffee/cigarette breath stiff of a nit behind the way it is now.

Al

Re: bob is right, just about everyone else has it wrong
 

i've only seen it dead, but i keep reading that excerpt and i interpret it as being live. i don't know how else to interpret it.

Re: bob is right, just about everyone else has it wrong
 

[ QUOTE ]
i've only seen it dead, but i keep reading that excerpt and i interpret it as being live. i don't know how else to interpret it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes that is the only way to interpret Bob's position. While it is a very good set of rules, I am not familiar with any rooms that use Robert's Rules as their rule book. I am familiar with a few rooms that use older rules that were written by Bob.

Re: I disagree with Bob Ciaffone. Who is right?
 

Wow, Los Angeles County is much tougher on a missed small blind. If you miss you need to post the BB live and the SB dead. Needless to say regular players at higher limits rarely miss the SB.

IMO fairest/best is a missed SB is posted but dead.

~ Rick

Related note: When I worked at the Bike I was able to get them to reduce the penalty for moving away from the BB (and you don't want to wait) to posting the BB only. A thread and poll I ran on 2+2 helped (essentially confirming that it would help keep players in action and you can't really get any significant advantage).

Sick thing is that to the best of my knowledge no other club in town has adopted this.

Re: I disagree with Bob Ciaffone. Who is right?
 

In our room it is live.

I can't really see much reason to make it dead. Sure the player is posting it in position, but he also forfeited his right to the button.

Re: bob is right, just about everyone else has it wrong
 

I believe this is a misunderstanding.

[ QUOTE ]
If you choose to post the total amount of the blinds

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe the "live" blind case is only if you are posting both of the blinds. The rule is clarifying that only the amount of the big blind is live and that the rest is dead money. Posting only the small blind is a separate issue from the earlier quoted bits.

Or maybe I'm the one misunderstanding the discussion and this isn't at all the issue. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: bob is right, just about everyone else has it wrong
 

I was about to post the same thing, pfap.

Re: bob is right, just about everyone else has it wrong
 

[ QUOTE ]
I believe this is a misunderstanding.

[ QUOTE ]
If you choose to post the total amount of the blinds

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe the "live" blind case is only if you are posting both of the blinds. The rule is clarifying that only the amount of the big blind is live and that the rest is dead money. Posting only the small blind is a separate issue from the earlier quoted bits.

Or maybe I'm the one misunderstanding the discussion and this isn't at all the issue. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I would like to think you are right, but I am looking at a couple of phrases in here. A player who misses any or all blinds can resume play by either posting all the blinds missed or waiting for the big blind.

Re: I disagree with Bob Ciaffone. Who is right?
 

RR,
you are right.
I have seen in a few rooms where the s/b is live though.
I think you will find a few ideas(rules) Bob has in his book are a little strange.

Re: I disagree with Bob Ciaffone. Who is right?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Wow, Los Angeles County is much tougher on a missed small blind. If you miss you need to post the BB live and the SB dead.

[/ QUOTE ]

Same for San Jose.

Re: I disagree with Bob Ciaffone. Who is right?
 

I haven't played limit online for awhile but I went back and checked a PT database and found this. It would be -EV for me to skip the SB and button and post a live SB. It obviously would be even more -EV to post dead.

I know it depends on me and the type of games I was in. But the key question to answer is: "on average, do you make more profit in SB and button combined than the value of SB?"

Even if the answer to my above question is yes, my preference would be to post SB dead. In my experience, I cannot honesly recall seeing a live SB outside of that position.

Re: I disagree with Bob Ciaffone. Who is right?
 

Canterbury's rule on this is horrible. If you miss your SB and want back in, you must re-post a BB and post a dead SB. Bleh.

Re: I disagree with Bob Ciaffone. Who is right?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Missed small blind is dead and that's the only scheme that makes sense to me. Otherwise you get to play your small blind from much better position without penalty.

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely. I would never take a bathroom break again unless my small blind came up.

Edit Although if I can buy the button, I would rather miss the blinds and do that.

Re: I disagree with Bob Ciaffone. Who is right?
 

I'm starting to think that you should be able to post the SB live. Sure, you play the SB from better position by posting it, but you would get to play the cutoff anyway. Also, you get two fewer hands, one of which is the button and you never know when you'll pick up AA in the SB. You post the same amount of money and play fewer hands, I don't see where the advantage is gained.

Re: I disagree with Bob Ciaffone. Who is right?
 

dead

Re: I disagree with Bob Ciaffone. Who is right?
 

I have been trying to remember how it is handled at Caesar's IN. I know if you miss both blinds, the small blind is posted dead but it seems that I remember on the rare occasions that I miss a small blind, I posted the small blind after the button and it was live.

I hate it when I can't remember things.

Re: I disagree with Bob Ciaffone. Who is right?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Related note: When I worked at the Bike I was able to get them to reduce the penalty for moving away from the BB (and you don't want to wait) to posting the BB only. A thread and poll I ran on 2+2 helped (essentially confirming that it would help keep players in action and you can't really get any significant advantage).

Sick thing is that to the best of my knowledge no other club in town has adopted this.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can hear the voices of nits screaming about the player constantly moving who's "saving money" from not posting SBs while reading this.

That might be why it hasn't been adopted.

The nits.

And, well, someone certainly sure to try and abuse it needlessly.

Re: bob is right, just about everyone else has it wrong
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would like to think you are right

[/ QUOTE ]

That's okay, you can think that; it's a +EV bet in all situations.

Here's the rule from your original post:

[ QUOTE ]
A player who misses any or all blinds can resume play by either posting all the blinds missed or waiting for the big blind. If you choose to post the total amount of the blinds, an amount up to the size of the minimum opening bet is live. The remainder is taken by the dealer to the center of the pot and is not part of your bet. When it is your next turn to act, you have the option to raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

A player who misses any or all blinds can resume play by either posting all the blinds missed or waiting for the big blind. - This is the root of the confusion of the paragraph, and this sort of thing varies by room. In ours, even if you miss only the small blind, you are responsible for both blinds.

If you choose to post the total amount of the blinds, an amount up to the size of the minimum opening bet is live. - Again, awkward wording, but I feel this is soley in the case of somebody posting more than one blind, NOT for someone only posting a small blind. It's a separate sentence from the first one about posting only missed blinds (ie, just the SB) and is qualifying if a player is posting the total of blinds, only the opening bet amount is live. Really, the interesting bit for me is how this is handled in games where the opening bet is more than the total of the blinds.

So, yes, a very awkwardly worded paragraph, one that could use a heavy edit, but I don't think you disagree so much as have a problem with interpretation of a confusing and vague guideline.

Hasn't Bob been fairly responsive to discussion of his rules? This could be cleared up so easily...

Re: I disagree with Bob Ciaffone. Who is right?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Related note: When I worked at the Bike I was able to get them to reduce the penalty for moving away from the BB (and you don't want to wait) to posting the BB only. A thread and poll I ran on 2+2 helped (essentially confirming that it would help keep players in action and you can't really get any significant advantage).

Sick thing is that to the best of my knowledge no other club in town has adopted this.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can hear the voices of nits screaming about the player constantly moving who's "saving money" from not posting SBs while reading this.

That might be why it hasn't been adopted.

The nits.

And, well, someone certainly sure to try and abuse it needlessly.

[/ QUOTE ]

I never heard the policy questioned nor did nits complain. The common (in LA) practice of requiring that both the BB and dead SB be posted encouraged many players to simply wait for the BB or the same relative position. By reducing the requirement to simply posting the BB people tended to post rather than wait.

Just to make sure I had my bases covered I asked the math types on 2+2 if moving from early position to the cutoff repeatedly would be plus EV if you only had to post the BB. The consensus was that there could be little advantage if any and the opportunities to do it repeatedly would be rare anyway.

My observation is that there isn't any abuse to speak of.

~ Rick