The mindset of an anarcho-capitalist voluntarist
 

The proposal that taxation != theft;



Well, theft is an act. Just like murder or rape is.

Taxation is probably better described as extortion. Because when you do not oblige to the wants of the people with the power then they will use this power to make you pay up.


But more specifically,

As an anarcho-capitalist and someone who believes in universal morality and negative rights..

..it's not so much writing a letter to someone that I have a problem with. Nor is it spendin money that you have acquired.

The problem I have is with immoral acts. Meaning that human beings come to someone's house and kidnap them and drag them off to a dungeon or cage. And the people that they do this to did not pose a threat to the ones doing this to them. Nor did they pose a threat to anyone else. All that happened was that they did not pay certain amounts of money to other people that thought they had a right to it. AND they thought that they have the right to subdue other people when they don't comply. Not with an angry letter or with putting them on a blacklist or casting them out of their organization of security. No, by physically and mentally harming them.

To me that is a clear case of violent aggression which has absolutely nothing to do with active self-defense.




To conclude: only when you look at the individual acts is when the morality of the situation becomes clear. What statists and collectivists always try to do is to hide the individual acts ("just doing my job", "it's the law", "it's what the people want", "it's for the common good", "we know what's best for you", etc.).

Re: The mindset of an anarcho-capitalist voluntarist
 

Yep.

Re: The mindset of an anarcho-capitalist voluntarist
 

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Re: The mindset of an anarcho-capitalist voluntarist
 

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Yep.

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Cue dvault and his cheerleading police.

Re: The mindset of an anarcho-capitalist voluntarist
 

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Yep.

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Why don't more people get this? I know lack of interest in anything political is a large chunk of America. The other thing I notice (mostly by the Hollywood crowd) but a large portion of left leaning people is the use of the word "feel". I feel this, I feel that, How do you feel about blah... which leads me to believe that the outcome is less important than the action that makes them "feel" good about what they are trying to accomplish. Nobody enjoys seeing people starve, people lose their homes, live in rat infested slums. But when you show them that a government will extort from people who have more than that, where does the incentive go to improve your situation?

On the right, gone are the days of limited govt, low taxes, low spending. Now repubs are "pro lifers" and other elements of the religious voting block. I have no interest in trying to limit adult porn, sex toys, abortion, buttsecks between consenting adults and the rest of the morality police agenda.

So here I sit, knowing I disagree with almost everything left, ecspecially in fiscal matters. Not really liking the current right, as they have been cowardly in almost every way, because the left calls them mean spirited, racist, anti poor, anti elderly, draconian cutting, tax cutters for the rich.

Why are there not 9 Ron pauls running on the repub ticket? He epitomizes what the repubs used to say they stood for.

What am I to do?

Not trying to hijack this thread... just ranting a bit. Any thoughts on my original question of why more people dont get the theory of taxation being extortion?

Re: The mindset of an anarcho-capitalist voluntarist
 

How is this mindset different for a collectivist voluntarist?

Re: The mindset of an anarcho-capitalist voluntarist
 

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On the right, gone are the days of limited govt, low taxes, low spending.

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When do you think these days ended?

Re: The mindset of an anarcho-capitalist voluntarist
 

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On the right, gone are the days of limited govt, low taxes, low spending.

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When do you think these days ended?

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In actuality... not long after Lincoln.... although there have been sporadic pushes back towards this, but taxes and spending have gone so far up its like pissing into the wind.

Re: The mindset of an anarcho-capitalist voluntarist
 

How would you feel about the state if it did not kidnap and cage?

Re: The mindset of an anarcho-capitalist voluntarist
 

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On the right, gone are the days of limited govt, low taxes, low spending.

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When do you think these days ended?

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In actuality... not long after Lincoln.... although there have been sporadic pushes back towards this, but taxes and spending have gone so far up its like pissing into the wind.

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Even Jefferson exceeded his constitutionally granted powers once president.

Re: The mindset of an anarcho-capitalist voluntarist
 

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On the right, gone are the days of limited govt, low taxes, low spending.

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When do you think these days ended?

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In actuality... not long after Lincoln.... although there have been sporadic pushes back towards this, but taxes and spending have gone so far up its like pissing into the wind.

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Even Jefferson exceeded his constitutionally granted powers once president.

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I was looking at the republican party, of which Lincoln is considered the "father" of.

The evil catalyst for excessive taxation began with withholding from paychecks. I bet if everyone had to write a weekly or monthly check to the govt to pay taxes... things would be a lot different. I hate to hear idiots say " I'm getting a big tax refund"... like they are getting free money from the govt. Morons don't even realize it was thier own money they are getting back (with no interest of course)

Re: The mindset of an anarcho-capitalist voluntarist
 

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On the right, gone are the days of limited govt, low taxes, low spending.

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When do you think these days ended?

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In actuality... not long after Lincoln.... although there have been sporadic pushes back towards this, but taxes and spending have gone so far up its like pissing into the wind.

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Even Jefferson exceeded his constitutionally granted powers once president.

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I was looking at the republican party, of which Lincoln is considered the "father" of.

The evil catalyst for excessive taxation began with withholding from paychecks....

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Did you have a problem with Lincoln forcibly conscripting people into fighting against other states? If not, then it seems you would believe the federal govt owns your body (can do with it what it wishes if it deems it a necessity), in which case your paycheck is a rather trivial loss.

Re: The mindset of an anarcho-capitalist voluntarist
 

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How would you feel about the state if it did not kidnap and cage?

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It wouldnt be a state.

Re: The mindset of an anarcho-capitalist voluntarist
 

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On the right, gone are the days of limited govt, low taxes, low spending.

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When do you think these days ended?

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In actuality... not long after Lincoln.... although there have been sporadic pushes back towards this, but taxes and spending have gone so far up its like pissing into the wind.

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Even Jefferson exceeded his constitutionally granted powers once president.

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I was looking at the republican party, of which Lincoln is considered the "father" of.

The evil catalyst for excessive taxation began with withholding from paychecks....

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Did you have a problem with Lincoln forcibly conscripting people into fighting against other states? If not, then it seems you would believe the federal govt owns your body (can do with it what it wishes if it deems it a necessity), in which case your paycheck is a rather trivial loss.

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I obviously wasn't around back then to have a problem with Lincoln. If you are asking me if I favor a draft.... then no I don't. If a country is in a situation that requires the use of armed forces, they should get them from vols.

Re: The mindset of an anarcho-capitalist voluntarist
 

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Why don't more people get this?

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Coz it's an opinion not a fact.
Its an opinion as good as stating, the constitution of the state allows us to escape the prisoners dilemma involved with social interaction.

Re: The mindset of an anarcho-capitalist voluntarist
 

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How is this mindset different for a collectivist voluntarist?

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Well... you tell me!

What actions do you deem immoral that makes the difference between AC and AS? If there are actions that you deem immoral then how do you propose to deal with that? Remember that any way of dealing with it cannot suffer from the same problem.

Re: The mindset of an anarcho-capitalist voluntarist
 

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Yep.

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Why don't more people get this?

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Because they have grown up in a society where the complete opposite is believed AND TAUGHT!

Re: The mindset of an anarcho-capitalist voluntarist
 

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How would you feel about the state if it did not kidnap and cage?

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You mean if it acted like a business? On a voluntary basis?


Then it would cease to be a state. Evidently I am all for voluntary interaction, so a shift of mindset from one to the other is what I am trying to bring about.

Re: The mindset of an anarcho-capitalist voluntarist
 

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I obviously wasn't around back then to have a problem with Lincoln.

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Thomas Dilorenzo - Lincoln's Tariff War
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znFz755kP8s

Thomas Dilorenzo - Abraham Lincoln and the Triumph of Mercantilism in America
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJkhBwIf75A


Watch and be amazed.

Re: The mindset of an anarcho-capitalist voluntarist
 

Isn't voting OK by AC standards if it's in "self-defense"?

So then, couldn't supporting taxes (as the life blood of a minimalist state) be OK, if for no reason other than you feel worldwide sentiment makes states inevitable, and you feel you need one to protect yourself?

Re: The mindset of an anarcho-capitalist voluntarist
 

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Isn't voting OK by AC standards if it's in "self-defense"?

So then, couldn't supporting taxes (as the life blood of a minimalist state) be OK, if for no reason other than you feel worldwide sentiment makes states inevitable, and you feel you need one to protect yourself?

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Q: If I vote, am I an authoritarian?
A: Most people who vote are authoritarians in their ideas (statists), however writing on a piece of paper is itself not an act of violent aggression. For example: anyone can declare war on a country but it really doesn't matter much. What matters is what you *do*.

Q: I support voluntary interactions in most cases, but I believe there are times when coercive force is justified, outside of direct self-defense. Am I a voluntaryist?
A: Voluntarism is a moral principle. Moral principles are universal statements. Either you support the principle universally or you can not be said to hold it. If you hold that violent aggression is justified in some cases then you are an authoritarian because you think that the moral principle does not exist!
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2363188212

Re: The mindset of an anarcho-capitalist voluntarist
 

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Isn't voting OK by AC standards if it's in "self-defense"?

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ACists are pretty divided over this issue; I tend to think that voting as a means of self-defense is acceptable, but many on here disagree.

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So then, couldn't supporting taxes (as the life blood of a minimalist state) be OK, if for no reason other than you feel worldwide sentiment makes states inevitable, and you feel you need one to protect yourself?

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This seems unacceptable, since supporting harm against others (taxes) in order to possibly protect yourself doesn't meash well with traditional libertarian emphasis on the ends not justifying the means.

Re: The mindset of an anarcho-capitalist voluntarist
 

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This seems unacceptable, since supporting harm against others (taxes) in order to possibly protect yourself doesn't meash well with traditional libertarian emphasis on the ends not justifying the means.

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Well then what's the difference between supporting taxes and voting? You say you yourself do not believe voting to be OK in self-defense, so I guess you're not the best person to ask. Your view is one I have no problem with.

But to believe voting is OK in self-defense but supporting taxes never can be doesn't seem to have much consistency.

Re: The mindset of an anarcho-capitalist voluntarist
 

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http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2363188212

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Is this an invite? I didn't know I was part of the club. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

EDIT: Nielsio I poked you.

Re: The mindset of an anarcho-capitalist voluntarist
 

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http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2363188212

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Is this an invite? I didn't know I was part of the club. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

EDIT: Nielsio I poked you.

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Suppress any belief you have in human nature and the real world (not to mention be taken in by 9/11 conspiracies) and then hit "Join group".

Also, don't poke Niels, it's like rattling the cage.

Cody

Re: The mindset of an anarcho-capitalist voluntarist
 

First he will fire a shot in the air.

If I don't stop, then it's a shot to my leg.

If I still don't stop, he will block my account.

Re: The mindset of an anarcho-capitalist voluntarist
 

Some more on the mindset of a voluntaryist..:


Saying NO
http://img.youtube.com/vi/A8N2hmoS4Os/default.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8N2hmoS4Os



What NOW?
http://img.youtube.com/vi/-gmYXmlYoX0/default.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gmYXmlYoX0

Re: The mindset of an anarcho-capitalist voluntarist
 

No offense but that "What now" video is endless rambling + horrible quality. It's like a bad guru smirking and grinning. Spooky and freaky.
Oh and the content is also pretty funny if you take into account the the ACists are the ones that are preaching all the time.
On a certain level this is excellent humor :P

Re: The mindset of an anarcho-capitalist voluntarist
 

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No offense but that "What now" video is endless rambling + horrible quality. It's like a bad guru smirking and grinning. Spooky and freaky.
Oh and the content is also pretty funny if you take into account the the ACists are the ones that are preaching all the time.
On a certain level this is excellent humor :P

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If I can't help you see the non-controlling ways, then maybe this guy can:


Control and Freedom
http://img.youtube.com/vi/rKxKGFw6B68/1.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKxKGFw6B68
http://www.bswa.org/audio/mp3/Brahma...2007_01_05.mp3

Re: The mindset of an anarcho-capitalist voluntarist
 

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Yep.

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Why don't more people get this?

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Because they have grown up in a society where the complete opposite is believed AND TAUGHT!

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But so was I, so was Boro, so were the rest of ACers. It goes beyond that. ( I may not even be a true ACer as I have read nothing on it but Boro posts and similar. I do know my own personel philosophy was very close to it, before I had ever heard the term AC.)

Maybe we (ACers) are wired different to not just agree with something because it was taught to us. I was raised a Catholic, went to church every week, and even as a child I wondered "If god created the earth then who created god?" Is there a god above god and if there is, doesnt that god need a creator too?

Around age 7, I thought it just seemed too far fetched that Santa could visit every house on earth in one nite, even with the time zones and the fact that he only went to Christian homes.

I really think that at least 60% of America is just apathetic about aquiring knowledge. Critical thinking is not the strong suit of any populace. Most people have no desire to use thier minds, to integrate thoughts, to think a theory thru to the end. It is part laziness, and part disinterest, and for many, just a general lack of brains.

I dont want to go on much more.... but as I said in my earlier post, I'm really interested in other's thoughts on why this doesn't make sense to sooooo many people. I realize indoctrination starts people on the path, but it seemed so easy for me as a "moldable mind" as a child, to see thru the garbage and abandon that path.
It's also one of the reasons I left college. Where were you Borodog when I needed you? I would have sat thru all my other classes and hated them, just to stay enrolled and listen to lectures by you. (I would have coasted to an A in your class too.)

Re: The mindset of an anarcho-capitalist voluntarist
 

Yes, because rational thought inevitably leads to being an AC'ist. Coz all the intellectual elite althrough the world believes in AC'ism.

Honestly, you should realize that you simply believe and not know. There is no inevitable "truth" in economics, it's a social science.

Re: The mindset of an anarcho-capitalist voluntarist
 

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There is no inevitable "truth" in economics, it's a social science.

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A great argument against any centralized, imposed schemes.

Re: The mindset of an anarcho-capitalist voluntarist
 

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There is no inevitable "truth" in economics, it's a social science.

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If there is no truth, then why can't I/aren't I be left free?

Re: The mindset of an anarcho-capitalist voluntarist
 

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There is no inevitable "truth" in economics, it's a social science.

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So, there's no truth in social sciences--why is that? Is there truth in natural sciences like physics? What about math?

Re: The mindset of an anarcho-capitalist voluntarist
 

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Well then what's the difference between supporting taxes and voting? You say you yourself do not believe voting to be OK in self-defense

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I do believe voting is ok in self-defense...

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But to believe voting is OK in self-defense but supporting taxes never can be doesn't seem to have much consistency.

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Why not? (Seriously, I'm curious as to why you think this position is inconsistent...)

I mean, voting as a means to get a candidate who will violate our rights less seems fine (whether or not its effective is another matter, but I don't find it inconsistent with libertarian principles).
I'm not sure how the same could be said of supporting taxes, though...

Re: The mindset of an anarcho-capitalist voluntarist
 

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Honestly, you should realize that you simply believe and not know. There is no inevitable "truth" in economics, it's a social science.

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Proposition: Humans act purposefully applying scarce means to achieve their desired ends.

True or False?

Re: The mindset of an anarcho-capitalist voluntarist
 

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Honestly, you should realize that you simply believe and not know. There is no inevitable "truth" in economics, it's a social science.

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Proposition: Humans act purposefully applying scarce means to achieve their desired ends.

True or False?

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Oh boy, here we go. Endless discussion about science theory and the discovery of truth to follow :P