PPA Update.
 

I just spoke to John Pappas on the phone.

There is some exciting work being done.

I am much more encouraged about the prostects of the PPA becoming the type of effective organization we need.

I will let them make the anouncements as it is not my place to do so, but stay tuned.

D$D

Re: PPA Update.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I just spoke to John Pappas on the phone.

There is some exciting work being done.

I am much more encouraged about the prostects of the PPA becoming the type of effective organization we need.

I will let them make the anouncements as it is not my place to do so, but stay tuned.

D$D

[/ QUOTE ]

I (very) briefly spoke with John today as well. I have a follow-up call scheduled. It sounds they may have decided to up the energy level. I'll post what I can after that call.

Re: PPA Update.
 

Is this serious or what? Ive [censored] had hope dashed so many gd times this year and Im in the midst of a horrid downswing so I ain't investing any emotional capital in these people until they actually start using $, employees, and volunteers to start mobilizing us.

Re: PPA Update.
 

SPAM

Re: PPA Update.
 

I would agree EXCEPT Engineer, very reliable, is posting the same.

Maybe they are reading some of the posts at the PPA forum....

Lets stay tuned and hope this is more than that 6 month Sen. Al letter we receive.

obg

Re: PPA Update.
 

Ditto, I feel like we are the vocal minority amongst the PPA. They have a crap load of people (~670,000) registered, so hopefully make some noise.

I think the WSOP came and went and was a wasted opportunity. Phone banks to call you reps etc. would have been great.

Re: PPA Update.
 

[ QUOTE ]

I would agree EXCEPT Engineer, very reliable, is posting the same.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the only thing giving me hope.

Re: PPA Update.
 

Its not spam, I have seen Dad post at PPA as an individual, and PMed him once or twice. He isn't a shill or a gomer(I hope). We are all tough on the PPA, and rightly so, but it IS an organization with names, emails, and #s. If they wake up, sober up, and smell the light, we have no choice but to follow behind them.

Re: PPA Update.
 

PPA UPDATE:

1) The board is still packed with cronyist conflicting interests dominated by CP magazine reps and the interests of certain market players including Party Poker which tries to undermine the other market players still in the US Market

2) PPA hasn't shown much interest in neutering the forthcoming regs which should be an important mid-term fallback plan to protect the ability of its members to continue playing online while the longer term fight is waged

3) PPA still refuses to engage the posters of this forum by designating a spokesman to regularly interact with us here on 2+2 which is the largest poker community on the net/earth

4) PPA (thus far) has focused only repeal of the UIGEA without much/any focus on B&M poker at the state level which would have a synergistic effect to help online poker *especially* if they targeted a few big states like NY and TX

5) After, as likely and despite all our hopes, the pending bills in Congress fail, the PPA will say they tried and that we all need to ignore the organization's conflicted interests and shortcomings and work for the future instead of first demanding structural changes like in the board makeup

6) Summary bottom line is that the PPA still views its primary stakeholders as not its wider membership, but the existing online sites and media dependant on same for advertising

Re: PPA Update.
 

"3) PPA still refuses to engage the posters of this forum by designating a spokesman to regularly interact with us here on 2+2 which is the largest poker community on the net/earth"

big tell

Re: PPA Update.
 

[ QUOTE ]
"3) PPA still refuses to engage the posters of this forum by designating a spokesman to regularly interact with us here on 2+2 which is the largest poker community on the net/earth"

big tell

[/ QUOTE ]

Explained by:

a) reps from CP mag control the PPA board

b) CP mag hates 2+2 and its owners

c) CP mag puts its interests above those of the membership of the PPA (and its own readers)

Re: PPA Update.
 

you forgot
(d) the ownership and writers at CP are amateurish, indolent, partying fluffs. If they wanted to help someone would have to
show them how to use Google.

Re: PPA Update.
 

[ QUOTE ]
PPA UPDATE:

1) The board is still packed with cronyist conflicting interests dominated by CP magazine reps and the interests of certain market players including Party Poker which tries to undermine the other market players still in the US Market

2) PPA hasn't shown much interest in neutering the forthcoming regs which should be an important mid-term fallback plan to protect the ability of its members to continue playing online while the longer term fight is waged

3) PPA still refuses to engage the posters of this forum by designating a spokesman to regularly interact with us here on 2+2 which is the largest poker community on the net/earth

4) PPA (thus far) has focused only repeal of the UIGEA without much/any focus on B&M poker at the state level which would have a synergistic effect to help online poker *especially* if they targeted a few big states like NY and TX

5) After, as likely and despite all our hopes, the pending bills in Congress fail, the PPA will say they tried and that we all need to ignore the organization's conflicted interests and shortcomings and work for the future instead of first demanding structural changes like in the board makeup

6) Summary bottom line is that the PPA still views its primary stakeholders as not its wider membership, but the existing online sites and media dependant on same for advertising

[/ QUOTE ]


I don't know about any of the above but as a member of the ppa it is disheartening to see how much the engineer comes up with each week towards getting online poker legalized or reducing the amount of restrictions and to only rarely be called to action by the PPA.

It seems like the weekly actions for example would not take much effort or resources and could have strong effects if pushed out to all of the PPA members.

honestly I really don't have a clue as to what the PPA actually does

Re: PPA Update.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Is this serious or what? Ive [censored] had hope dashed so many gd times this year and Im in the midst of a horrid downswing so I ain't investing any emotional capital in these people until they actually start using $, employees, and volunteers to start mobilizing us.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't blame any of you for doubting anything you read from me. You don't know me, and anyone can post anything they want on the 'net.

Only time will tell if the one phone call I had today resluts in the positive action we all hope for from the PPA.

What I can share is my initial concerns about the PPA squandering it's resources on a one time shot at a legislative quick fix were entirely misplaced. I was also concerned as a grassroots activist that they were missing the real power they had in their grasp.

What I had seen as inaction was perhaps careful thoughtful planning. Yes there were some opportunities lost by not capitalizing on all the hopes that we all placed on the inital rush of excitement of having a group to represent us, but all I am saying is there is hope.

All organizations go through growing pains. I can tell you from my conversation that the PPA is in it for the long haul and not being designed as a one trick pony. I come from the campaign side were we are used to hitting the ground running. Each and every day until election day is invaluable. You make sure you capitalize on every bit of momentium you can get, because you try to build a perfect organization designed to go out of business the day after the election.

Advocacy groups on the otherhand are built for, the long haul, multi-elections cycles. There are many issues involved for poker players in the U.S.. I am glad to say that the PPA seems to be building itself to address all of them.

No I am not suggesting that anyone invest a thing based on my few posts here. No I am not a shill for anyone, just another player with a passion for poker. I do not even have a paid membership in the PPA.

I can tell you that things are not as bleak as many of you feel, as I did before my conversation today.

So take from my words what you will.

Time will tell,

D$D

Re: PPA Update.
 

[ QUOTE ]
What I had seen as inaction was perhaps careful thoughtful planning. Yes there were some opportunities lost by not capitalizing on all the hopes that we all placed on the inital rush of excitement of having a group to represent us, but all I am saying is there is hope.

[/ QUOTE ]

CAREFUL THOUGHTFUL PLANNING? How [censored] long does it take to establish a solid lobbying plan? It's been nearly ten months since we got Fristed, and over a year and a half since trouble started brewing. How much time do they need?

We are all hard on the PPA, and with good reason. I'm underwhelmed at their efforts. All I've seen from them is the occasional email and letter campaign. That's not enough.

Re: PPA Update.
 

Does the PPA intend to get involved in the iMEGA case? I think that it could help and possibly solve issues such as standing of iMEGA to bring the suit. Has the PPA contacted iMEGA to explore this possibility?

Re: PPA Update.
 

We could really use a master political site to organize this stuff.

Re: PPA Update.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know about any of the above but as a member of the ppa it is disheartening to see how much the engineer comes up with each week towards getting online poker legalized or reducing the amount of restrictions and to only rarely be called to action by the PPA.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's like you're reading my thoughts.

Re: PPA Update.
 

[ QUOTE ]

3) PPA still refuses to engage the posters of this forum by designating a spokesman to regularly interact with us here on 2+2 which is the largest poker community on the net/earth


[/ QUOTE ]

When PPA was in it's infancy before UIGEA was passed, Michael Bolcerek was active in this forum. He got repeatedly slammed by members who complained that he was a crappy spokesman, etc., and Mason M. of 2p2 even got in on the act by letting everyone know that they did not trust or support the PPA.

No wonder they don't bother coming to this forum anymore.

I'm disgruntled with the PPA like most everyone else I suppose, but I do see why they quit coming to this forum.

Re: PPA Update.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Mason M. of 2p2 even got in on the act by letting everyone know that they did not trust or support the PPA.

[/ QUOTE ]

On a side note: Mason is expected to have a statement about the UIGEA pretty soon.

Re: PPA Update.
 

I suggest that unless you can come on here with some specifics, you shjouldn't be making the type of posts that you are. It doesn't do anyone here any good to be told that the sky is going to be blue soon unless you can back this up with a few facts.

On the other hand, if you would have been a long time poster here who has built up credibility then a post like yours would be more acceptable. And again, I want to repeat that our position towards the PPA is neutral. For this to change, we need to see more changes in their board than they have currently made even though there has been movement here in the right direction.

Best wishes,
Mason

Re: PPA Update.
 

I think you have clearly mis-represented what we did and our attitude towards the PPA. I believe, because of our initial work, the PPA did improve.

Also, Bolcerek was on here soliciting members/money and refused to tell us when asked how the money was being spent, who the lobbyist were, what their goals were, etc. You need to understand that we at Two Plus Two are a serious organization that is willing to spend our own money when necessary to do what's best for poker and to protect our members. We do this at no charge to you.

On a side note, even though our current position towards the PPA is neutral, I would like to see a representative of their organization come on here and answer questions in a serious and professional manner. This didn't happen before which is one of the reasons there was difficulty. But, as far as we are concerned, there is no reason it can't happen now.

Mason

Re: PPA Update.
 

Thanks for weighing in Mason. You have had a measured, cautious approach to the PPA that I hope will bear fruit from them one day. You attempted to do the homework and background on them, and they stonewalled you. I think a lot of us would have overlooked where exactly the money went if they had organized us and acted, but they wanted secrecy and inaction. I don't know if they can interact with a forum this large easily and fluidly, but they could have a reader
here with weekly updates, at the least. Twoplustwo is the
nexus of the poker universe, and they have eschewed it, to the detriment of themselves and poker, and deserve to have to work to get back in our good graces.
I think I speak for a lot of us here when I say that my reading/posting here is relayed via IM/forum/table talk to a factor of ten or more other poker players. I've been asking
the last couple of days what it would take for the PPA to get them to act in unison with them. Of the first four people I queried, three said to get the endorsement of twoplustwo that they did not get before. More rank and file recreational people will follow in those people's footsteps.
People are willing to give time and money if they can see how its working. I realize poker player's may have the highest ratio of [censored] to angel, but we aren't unreasonable. Its not too late for the PPA to step up, but they can't get anything done online without first stepping up here with facts, transparency, and engagement.

Re: PPA Update.
 

Hey all,

I haven't been active here in months for a variety of reasons, but got my hopes up, momentarily, when I saw the title of this thread.

Now, I'm disappointed, not just in the lack of information but in discovering that the PPA has not had more of a presence here in the past few months. Last I paid attention, a number of people here had been selected as State contacts for the PPA (a position I unsuccessfully applied for). I had assumed that those people who be effective liasons between PPA and the rest of us. Are we still suffering from a lack of communication?

And I certainly can't understand why anyone would actually withhold information about the PPA's activities.

Re: PPA Update.
 

[ QUOTE ]
On a side note, even though our current position towards the PPA is neutral, I would like to see a representative of their organization come on here and answer questions in a serious and professional manner.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem with this is that often the questions aren't going to come from serious, professional posters. Many of them are going to come from people like BluffThis who obviously have their own agenda.

Re: PPA Update.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I suggest that unless you can come on here with some specifics, you shjouldn't be making the type of posts that you are. It doesn't do anyone here any good to be told that the sky is going to be blue soon unless you can back this up with a few facts.

On the other hand, if you would have been a long time poster here who has built up credibility then a post like yours would be more acceptable. And again, I want to repeat that our position towards the PPA is neutral. For this to change, we need to see more changes in their board than they have currently made even though there has been movement here in the right direction.

Best wishes,
Mason

[/ QUOTE ]

Everyone,

I spoke with John Pappas for over an hour last night about various aspects of the PPA. They do have a plan. DeadMoney referred to an upcoming announcement. The announcement will happen fairly soon.

As we all know, up until now PPA has generally functioned a lobbying organization, where they work behind the scenes to influence politicians to support various legislation, and they've had some successes in this area. However, as we also know, they've not been effective in using their membership as a grassroots force. I think they're starting to understand this weakness and are working to resolve it. My conversation didn't lead me to draw anywhere near the optimistic conclusions DeadMoney did, but that's probably because I asked very specific questions about what they would do with regards to each issue we have [i.e., What are you doing about the KY elections? How? When? How about the UIGEA regs? What about the NFL letter? What about member communication? How come my posts (just one guy with a $0 budget) generate more Google returns than all of PPA’s work combined? Etc.]. What it did lead me to believe is that they’ll take some positive steps toward engaging their membership and towards facilitating the building of a grassroots organization. Time will tell if this will be more successful than in the past. I hope we’ll continue to hold them accountable, but that we’ll also look at them with as open a mind as possible. And, I hope we’ll let them know when we don’t like what we see.

As for BluffTHIS’ “PPA Update”:

1) The issues with the board are still what they are.
2) BluffTHIS is correct, the PPA isn’t lobbying to neuter the regs. I expressed my thoughts that they should, but they won’t.
3) PPA states they’d like to engage the 2p2 community, but have not yet done anything in this area. In fairness, they do respond to me whenever I ask them a question, but I can’t relay every question we have via email. A PPA presence here would help.
4) I discussed the KY gubernatorial elections with John (if Beshear wins, Kentuckians will vote on a constitutional amendment allowing poker; if Fletcher wins, he promises he’ll stop any expansion of gambling in KY). They have an interest and will make a determination. If they do, we’ll see them in action and will be able to critique their performance. If they sit this out, that would make quite the statement as well.
5) We, the PPA members, control the organization. When we don’t like something, we need to write or post on their forums demanding action. I have been, as have a few others here. I’ve seen what a few hundred dedicated folks here can accomplish, and can only imagine what could be done with 660,000. I’m still constrained to imaging, but am hopeful.
6) I think they’re sincere in wishing to improve in terms of member outreach and in grassroots effort building. Of course, sincerity and results aren’t the same thing. Time will tell.

So, I’d say I’m guardedly optimistic. They’re not contemplating anything with the energy level of what we do here, but they are looking at how to enable their members to do stuff like that within PPA. Again, time will tell. I’ll post more after the announcement.

If or when Engineer posts in this thread again, I\'ll read it.
 

If or when Engineer posts in this thread again, I'll read it.

I also would be interested in what an official representative of the PPA might post here, provided it is substantive.

Re: If or when Engineer posts in this thread again, I\'ll read it.
 

Engineer,

Thanks for the update. I guess one thing that still baffles me is why a lobbying organization doesn't have anyone it can designate to read and post on poker Internet message boards like 2+2. Seems like such a no-brainer to garner new members, preach to the converted and rally the troops.

Re: PPA Update.
 

Thanks Engineer.

I have written (never called) them and all but the last time simply received a canned response.

I did receive a reply from Pappas this last time for once concerning the Thompson letter.

I replied with many concerns that mirror yours and others.

Are we perhaps getting through to the PPA? The PPA needs to be at the least partially as active as FoF and other groups.

We shall see, I hope good things come soon.

obg

Re: If or when Engineer posts in this thread again, I\'ll read it.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Engineer,

Thanks for the update. I guess one thing that still baffles me is why a lobbying organization doesn't have anyone it can designate to read and post on poker Internet message boards like 2+2. Seems like such a no-brainer to garner new members, preach to the converted and rally the troops.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: PPA Update.
 

Why won't the PPA work to neuter the UIGEA regs? I submit it is because they are controlled by Party. Party has made it clear that they don't want other sites offering poker to the US player unless they can too.
If Party can't be here, then they don't want any site here. And the only way Party can be here is through legislation, not through soft regs workarounds.

Party's goals are similar to our goals but not identical. And with all due respect, we don't control the PPA, Party does. That is why they lack transparency, because if they opened up there books we would all be able see who is really funding them.

I support the PPA because what they want would be great for the player too, but they don't support "all" the things that would be great for the player.

Again, I support the PPA, but I refuse too be fooled by their happy spin. I try not to be a fish at the table, nor in regards to the true nature of the PPA. But I will try to keep an open mind.

Re: PPA Update.
 

Pappas is the new president.....michael b has stepped down

Re: PPA Update.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Of the first four people I queried, three said to get the endorsement of twoplustwo that they did not get before.

[/ QUOTE ]

They have to clean up their board. Hopefully the new president is a step in the right direction, but I have no idea who he is. We have also made it clear that we will not endorse the PPA until Mrs Shulman is no longer a board member. But they need more fixes than just that.

Best wishes,
Mason

Re: PPA Update.
 

I hope the exciting news is not limited to a new president and new office location.

Re: PPA Update.
 

[ QUOTE ]

As for BluffTHIS’ “PPA Update”:

1) The issues with the board are still what they are.
2) BluffTHIS is correct, the PPA isn’t lobbying to neuter the regs. I expressed my thoughts that they should, but they won’t.
3) PPA states they’d like to engage the 2p2 community, but have not yet done anything in this area. In fairness, they do respond to me whenever I ask them a question, but I can’t relay every question we have via email. A PPA presence here would help.
4) I discussed the KY gubernatorial elections with John (if Beshear wins, Kentuckians will vote on a constitutional amendment allowing poker; if Fletcher wins, he promises he’ll stop any expansion of gambling in KY). They have an interest and will make a determination. If they do, we’ll see them in action and will be able to critique their performance. If they sit this out, that would make quite the statement as well.
5) We, the PPA members, control the organization. When we don’t like something, we need to write or post on their forums demanding action. I have been, as have a few others here. I’ve seen what a few hundred dedicated folks here can accomplish, and can only imagine what could be done with 660,000. I’m still constrained to imaging, but am hopeful.
6) I think they’re sincere in wishing to improve in terms of member outreach and in grassroots effort building. Of course, sincerity and results aren’t the same thing. Time will tell.

So, I’d say I’m guardedly optimistic. They’re not contemplating anything with the energy level of what we do here, but they are looking at how to enable their members to do stuff like that within PPA. Again, time will tell. I’ll post more after the announcement.

[/ QUOTE ]


Engineer,

Thanks for taking the time to talk to Mr. Pappas and report back to us here on same, and as well to specifically respond to the points I made earlier.

However although I too am "guardedly optimistic" about the overall situation, it has nothing to do with the PPA, but rather with the ongoing actions in congress, the judicial arena and the WTO. Re the PPA, all you have confirmed is that they only support a very small subset of the larger set of goals most of us here support, and largely act at the behest of the goals of the online sites and poker media, especially Party Poker. If we do end up with some favorable outcome in the legislative area, IMO it will only be 30% at best because of the PPA, and 70% despite them. And if it weren't for this 2+2 forum and the activities of its members, especially yourself at the grassroots level, the PPA wouldn't have a chance of accomplishing diddly squat.

Re: PPA Update.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I hope the exciting news is not limited to a new president and new office location.

[/ QUOTE ]


Substanceless spin is always exciting to the spinner.

Re: PPA Update.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
On a side note, even though our current position towards the PPA is neutral, I would like to see a representative of their organization come on here and answer questions in a serious and professional manner.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem with this is that often the questions aren't going to come from serious, professional posters. Many of them are going to come from people like BluffThis who obviously have their own agenda.

[/ QUOTE ]


pokerBOY,

You are a huge tool. I do pose questions in a serious and professional manner, but I just do so with a healthy dose of sarcasm and overall agressiveness. I have a very good grasp of the overall situation and most of the details, including the online poker market players/economy, and various legal issues to do with same.

The plain fact of the matter is that there are some shortcomings in the PPA that are very severe and that the reason they refuse to engage us here is that they also refuse to make many substantive changes, especially involving CP mag giving up its straglehold on the board.

The ONLY reason that the PPA is worth supporting to any degree, is simply because they are currently the only game in town. But that still doesn't mean they should get a free pass from us *especially* when they don't truly represent all the goals we have. Instead they largely represent the goals and business models of certain existing online sites and advertising media.

I realize that the reason that you and many posters like you dislike my aggressive criticisms of the PPA is because you are scared of losing your livelihood if the upcoming regs have any teeth in them at all, or at least are successful in making it virtually impossible to play poker. However I too play fulltime and have those concerns as well, but probably with the difference that I can always go back to playing live, can still find a way to play online if I jump through a enough hoops, and also have enough savings that I am not going to be put in any immediate crunch.

But you and others are missing a VERY important point that Engineer confirmed from his conversation. Which is that the PPA is expending *zero* effort on neutering the regs as a mid-term fallback position. That *should* be a HUGE goal of yourself so that you can keep playing as now with some poker sites willing to take some measure of risk to spread games for US players when as likely the bills in Congress fail and we have to shift to a 3-5 year time frame to get what we want.

Instead, you and those private sites are being played for SUCKERS by Party Poker who takes contrary legal interpretations of the UIGEA than those sites in order to harm those competitors. Stars, FT and the others should wake the [censored] up on this. When those private sites get tired of being played for fools, then their support coupled with the base of posters on 2+2 could easily help start a new organization, despite all the difficulties involved. The PPA should keep that in mind.

And here's something CP magazine should keep in mind as well. Those private sites that now are being taken advantage of by the PPA's catering to Party Poker can afford to pull ALL of their advertising from CP and not suffer at all because every swinging dick who reads CP already plays or at least knows of those sites.

Re: PPA Update.
 

Congratulations to you, I see the PPA has put a link on their main page to your 'report card' on congress.

obg

Re: PPA Update.
 

BluffThis,

I don't mind your criticisms of the PPA. In fact, I think you have a lot of valid points.

What I do mind is the frequency and magnitude of your posts with your opinions on the matter. It's just plain annoying.

And also your misguided belief that this organization should use it's resources on every little thing that every single one of its' 600,000+ members wants is ludicrous. If you want something outside of what this organization is seeking then perhaps you should start your own?

Re: PPA Update.
 

Perhaps under new leadership the PPA will do some things differently.