AQ as sb 3bettor on AAx fd flop
 

villain raises 4 utg in six max hes 35/15/3, hero 3bets AQo in the sb to 16 (too loose? how about if he was button CO or HJ?)
villain calls. Hero has full stack villain has covered.

flop AAx with a fd... 32 in the pot whats ur c bet to? what do u do if he min raises or makes a more standardish raise. Or u more likely to do something different when the x is different cards?

if he minraises and the flush hits on the turn and u just called the flop minraise what do u do when he bets and u have no redraw? how about when u have a redraw?

how about u call the flop raise he cks behind the turn flush and the 4 flush hits on the river? How about if the turn was the K of flush and he checks behind and the 4 flush hits different anyhow?

Re: AQ as sb 3bettor on AAx fd flop
 

Do you think he ever folds to your PF 3bet (not 100% pertinent to this hand, just a general question about his UTG opening strength)?
I 3bet AK here, but not sure about AQ. Not sure why, because in this spot they probably play very similar?

His range here is pretty wide if he is truly raising top 15%. Is he position aware, ie only top 5% UTG, or does he just raise for instance ATo anywhere? If not very position aware, then your hand has a bunch of equity here, but if he is the type to fold AJo UTG, then not so much if you get raised.

Need to think more about the flush card hitting.

The main reason I do not like 3betting here is because our position sucks. I would have liked it much better if we were in position obviously.

Re: AQ as sb 3bettor on AAx fd flop
 

I don't raise that much preflop, I keep it to 12.

I probably bet about 4/5 x pot on the flop. So something like 25 in your case.

The other questions are too hard for me. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

I guess it boils down to, I'm trying to get all my/his chips in the middle as early as possible. I'm not a very classy post-flop player. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: AQ as sb 3bettor on AAx fd flop
 

jstill,

3 betting with is pretty standard (there are exceptions of course, but against this villain, I'd do it relentlessly). Assuming this is NL$100 with 100 bb stacks, I am never folding. I'll lead out around 2/3 pot, which should make it easy to get it in on the turn. I'm also not folding here with KK either. QQ is where the decision starts to get tougher.

If my read is that he will bet if I check then I will check. You still have two streets to get the money in so a free card is not a disaster.

I am not concerned about flush draws HU in 6-max with A on the board in a hand that was 3-bet pre-flop. That's just looking for monsters under the bed.

Re: AQ as sb 3bettor on AAx fd flop
 

4 2 what range do u put this villain on when he calls? he should fold most all PPs rite? and like AJ AQ rite? what should he do with AK? what hands in thta range do u expect him to stack off with here on the flop or turn?

the flush this hand wasnt my main concern it just seems like his range here whne he wants to get it all in will usually be like AK AQ or xx on AAx... fd hands probably arent much of his range I take it since KQ KJ usually fold even from these type of players vs this big 3bet right?

how about vs a solid player or nitty tag what do you think of this situation? I guess we wouldnt 3bet those players utg raise rite? but what if they raised from the BTN CO or HJ (would we 3bet the latter) and the hand played out this way... I just feel like most of their range that calls the 3bet then wants to stack off beats us ... maybe they stack off with KK QQ still but do they raise the flop or overshove the turn for full stacks with those hands? why would they? How about with KK here vs a good player what are your thoughts?

Re: AQ as sb 3bettor on AAx fd flop
 

jstill,

A solid TAG will call with a lot more than big PPs and AJ+ if your image is such that you are capable of trying to steal here. If it's my 2nd hand at the table, I definitely tilt his range towards hands like suited Aces and PPs like TT and JJ. AK, AA and KK probably shove so I tend to discount them here. 6-max Blind vs. button raise hands are much more of an art than a science, so it's hard to just give a rule of thumb.

At NL$100, I have seen decent players do very odd things on paired A flop. I've seen JJ-KK pay off some pretty big bets. Obviously any A is stacking off here.

I would 3-bet solid players and nits with AQ. It helps with balancing and if your image is solid then these types of players should be folding much more often than they are calling. Be warned, most of SSNL considers me a nit playing a 22/13 style so if your image is a 26/24 then I think you don't have as much FE.

If I have KK here, I'm checking the flop and planning to call down two streets of reasonable bets. I should be better than a coin flip against his range.

A lot of times the best way to play a hand like AQ pre-flop depends on who you want int he pot. If the idiot who plays any Ace is in the BB then calling and getting the pot 3-way is probably +EV. If BB likes to squeeze then 3 betting AQ is almost mandatory.

jstill, if you don't mind me asking, what level are you playing right now?

Re: AQ as sb 3bettor on AAx fd flop
 

I guess I ll just throw out all my stats real quick... Ive got like 60k hands mostly at 50 and 100 on stars on this most recent DB, its like 3:2 split basically.

Im running even nittier than you playing 17/13. My folded sb to steal is almost 90 and my folded bb is almost 80... Im going to SD 20% of the time and winning just over 50%. my ptbb/100 is only just over 3/100 at the moment which includes running at worse than -100bb/100 at NL200 over a few hundred hands (fun :P).

my preflop af is just over 2.5 my flop AF is just under 4 my turn af is 1.9 and my river af is like 2.5... my attempt to steal is 26

what am I doing obviously wrong?

Re: AQ as sb 3bettor on AAx fd flop
 

jstill,

You aren't doing anything obviously wrong with those stats. If you are playing 6-max, I would say that the sweet spot to see flops is somewhere between 20-24% My go to showdown is around 23-24% and my winning % at SD is low 50's (which seems to be standard).

TBH, winning at over 3 PTBB/100 puts in the top quartile of players at those levels. At 6-max NL$100 it's my belief that the top players win at a 5-6PTBB/100 clip over the long term and the very best might be around 8. There is no empirical evidence to support this because the players capable of doing 8-10PTBB/100 at NL$100 will move up before they get enough hands in to prove it statistically. I've probably got close to 400k hands at NL$100 and NL$200 and I think I was around 3.58PTBB/100 last time I checked. I'm running close to 5PTBB/100 for 2007, so I guess an old dog can learn new tricks [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: AQ as sb 3bettor on AAx fd flop
 

I guess thats comforting I havent been playing totally wrong and my results arent awful (which I assumed ever since seeing Sethy and Justin post their like 8-10ptbb/100 over huge sample sizes)... but at the same time I think part of me would rather hear there was something in my stats that were totally out of whack and I could easily fix that would improve my results over night ya know... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

thanks again for all yours and grunch's help its nice to have people whose advice you can always rely on to be credible like I had with ILP hip gehrig Heis Leader Miles ect in SSSH when I was starting out... im sure i ll have plenty of more questions for u guys in the future

Re: AQ as sb 3bettor on AAx fd flop
 

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I could easily fix that would improve my results over night ya know... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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If you find this, please be sure to let me in on the secret [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

The thing to keep in mind about NL, is that when someone hits a heater his stats will look insane. I have 20k and 30k hand samples of over 10PTBB/100 and I have a very brutal 40k break even run along with a few 10 buy-in downswings just for laughs. I'm just happy that I feel like I have reached the point where I can sit at most NL$100 tables and not be outclassed.

Re: AQ as sb 3bettor on AAx fd flop
 

Speaking of streaks & insane stats, I went on a -35 buyin downswing in May which nearly broke me. At my lowest point my BR was $500. I took 2 months off and am just rebuilding up through NL100 now.

At some point in your career, you will run worse than you ever thought possible. (Not my phrase)

Re: AQ as sb 3bettor on AAx fd flop
 

Wow, I had no idea they had a Limit->NL forum. I sure would've liked this about a year ago. Ok, first post here for me.

Jstill, from your OP, I get the feeling that you're way too worried about the possible flush draw. Considering that the pot is already bloated, he can't call your c-bet profitably with a flush draw. Even in the situation where the 3rd flush card hits AND he has a flush, you still have a gajillion outs. I am not folding. And don't worry about the river. After a c-bet you can just shove the turn.

My thoughts on preflop. In general, I personally don't like to 3-bet UTG raisers with AQo, especially not OOP. But it really depends on your style and your image. If you're playing 30/20 and 3-betting stuff like TT and SCs in this situation, then you can 3-bet AQo for value. But as you said, you're playing a 17/13 style, so it makes no sense to 3-bet AQo here and probably not even JJ. It basically turns those hands into bluffs.

On the c-bet size:
What's your standard c-bet? Mine is 3/4 PSB. Working of that, I'd say the two options are 3/4 PSB, or a little over 2/3 PSB. For simplicity's sake, one can just c-bet the same regardless of the situation. There are some people who prefer to bet more on drawy flops and less on dry flops. There are also people who c-bet less in 3-bet pots. I am one of these. I wrote a long blog post about this, but basically it comes down to this. In 3-bet pots, the pot is already really bloated relative to your stacksize. So it's not necessary to c-bet as much to reduce implied odds, because they are already reduced. You also benefit from the times you miss and you have to fold, so you're getting better odds on your c-bet. However, this applies more to aggressive games where light 3-betting is standard. If you only 3-bet for value, then more of your c-bets in 3-bet pots will be for value rather than as a bluff. In this case, I would argue that you should continue to make your same standard 3/4 PSB.

Another small little point I'd like to make. I saw a post above (I forgot which) referring to AF. Don't use it. Because of the structure of NL, AF is really useless except in situations where it is insanely high or insanely low. Anywhere in between doesn't tell you much at all. For example, there are aggressive players who float a lot. This will reduce their AF and make it seem like they're less aggressive. In general, I prefer to use more specific stats, like c-bet stats to make a guess on whether I'm getting valuetowned or bluffed, etc etc.

Here's a general thought I have on preflop ranges/stats/etc. I see some players whose preflop ranges are skewed (for lack of a better word). I don't really know how to articulate my thoughts correctly, so please forgive me. An example would be your 3-betting AQo. In limit, AQo is a 3-betting hand. In NL, in your particular situation (playing a rather nitty style, facing a UTG open), it really makes no sense to 3-bet AQo there. Like I also see some of my SS friends who want to open A2o on the BTN but fold 87s. In NL, you want more hands that can make decent hands, not necessarily hands with SD value. I'm not going to call down 3 streets with A2o-high against anyone. Another example would be like. AJo/KQo is a standard raise UTG to many people (6-max), as is 22. If I'm 10-tabling, I will start to cut out certain marginal hands from my range, including AJo/KQo UTG. But I will not give up raising 22 UTG. For this summer, over 130k hands at 2/4, 3/6, 55-22 is making more for me UTG (in terms of BB/hand) than AJo/KQo is. Also, 55-22 is extremely easy to play and there's almost no room for mistakes, whereas flopping TPGK OOP is much more difficult to play and that's the kind of hand you'll be making with AJo/KQo a lot of the time. I'm sure there are players who would much rather raise AJo/KQo UTG, but I personally would trash those two way before I even thought about folding 22 UTG. Even if your stats look ok (17/13 is definitely profitable at 0.50/1 if a bit tight), it's very possible that you're playing the wrong set of 17% hands.

When I use the word "you" I don't specifically mean you. I just mean players in general. Sorry if I sounded harsh at any point in my post. I was just trying to relay a point. I hope this helps.

Re: AQ as sb 3bettor on AAx fd flop
 

very helpful, and no need for apologize I didnt take anything you said as an attack at me or get defensive about anything...

I think when I 3bet AQ (and I usually do not 3bet JJ out of the blinds) it really is more of a bluff for me, just another hand besides AK to add to my 3betting range of the blinds of QQ+ just so people cant play perfectly against me all the time and fold JJ without a thought if stack sizes arent giving them the right implied odds to call (which they often wont be).

Thats the only real reason I usually 3bet AQo in the blinds, just to have a wider range and balance my blind 3betting range a bit so its tougher to play correctly vs my range. Not sure thats good, and I was still very sketchy about doing it vs a utg raise.

I dont know why I asked so much about the flush draw possibility in my OP, like I said later there arent many hands that make flushes that I expect in his range that calls my 3bet pre. At the same time I didnt feel great postflop (and I generally c bet a bit less than pot like 4/5s or so, and even less, often in 3bet pots as you said you also do). I felt like alot of his range that stacks off is AK maybe AQ or AJ if hes loose pre or a flopped underboat with whatever the PP is..

But as 4 2 said hes seen people do stupid things on paired AAx boards esp in 3bet pots, so maybe I'm just not giving enough weight to TT JJ QQ and KK all stacking off here pretty often in a 3bet pot to a turn shove. Even still if his range is KK QQ and AK we re an 8:6 dog but with the pot and stack sizes I guess we re resigned to having to get it all in so mine as well be the one pushing to make sure we get as much in behind as ahead? Is that the way to look at this spot?

fwiw villain min raised my flop c bet of 2/3 pot, should I just have shoved there? I figured Id call and get it all in on any turn just to let him keep firing air if hes doing something stupid, not sure it was a great line though...

Re: AQ as sb 3bettor on AAx fd flop
 

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I think when I 3bet AQ (and I usually do not 3bet JJ out of the blinds) it really is more of a bluff for me, just another hand besides AK to add to my 3betting range of the blinds of QQ+ just so people cant play perfectly against me all the time and fold JJ without a thought if stack sizes arent giving them the right implied odds to call (which they often wont be).


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I've been thinking a lot about this(3 betting and responding to 3 bets has been the hardest part of moving over for limit so far for me.) Wouldn't it make sense to threebet your very best hands and hands like medium suited connectors or small pocket pairs? Because when you threebet marginal top pair hands such as AQ-j KQish against a lot of people its basically a bluff. Almost the entire range that calls/4bets you crushes marginally good top hands(assuming they fold AJ-AT most of the time). So when you are called you're looking at a really bad reverse implied odds situation. Now if you're threebetting with the very best hands such as QQ+(lower pairs depending on position and how loose of a raiser they are) and AK+ for value, and your less dominated hands as a balance so they can't fold to all of your threebets easily. I'm also pretty sure the good players are doing this to me, as when I do see showdown in threebet pots it seems like its a monster or something stupid like 67s.

Frogic