What would be your idea of a perfect society?
 

If (use your imagination if you don't believe in an afterlife) God came to you in Heaven and told you that you were going to be born and that your birth would be random into a family living in the U.S.

You may be born to a family living in the ghetto.

You may be born to illegal aliens living in the U.S.

You may be intelligent, average, or ride the shortest bus they've got.

You may get lucky and be born with above avg intelligence into a very rich family.

Re: What would be your idea of a perfect society?
 

What is the question.

Re: What would be your idea of a perfect society?
 

I believe it's more or less a reference to the veil of ignorance.
Anyway the answer is obvious. An anarcho cpaitalist society.
Because even if I grow up in a ghetto, I be free to do anything I want and through my hard work I'll be able to have tremendous success.
Well that's assuming I can polish enough shoes as a five year old to pay my way into primary school...

Re: What would be your idea of a perfect society?
 

Everybody else in the world is dead but me and three of the hottest super models

Is that what you had in mind?

Re: What would be your idea of a perfect society?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I believe it's more or less a reference to the veil of ignorance.
Anyway the answer is obvious. An anarcho cpaitalist society.
Because even if I grow up in a ghetto, I be free to do anything I want and through my hard work I'll be able to have tremendous success.
Well that's assuming I can polish enough shoes as a five year old to pay my way into primary school...

[/ QUOTE ]

/End Thread

Re: What would be your idea of a perfect society?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Anyway the answer is obvious. An anarcho cpaitalist society.

[/ QUOTE ]

That isn't obvious to me. But it would be a huge improvement to today's state of affairs.

Re: What would be your idea of a perfect society?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If (use your imagination if you don't believe in an afterlife) God came to you in Heaven and told you that you were going to be born and that your birth would be random into a family living in the U.S.

You may be born to a family living in the ghetto.

You may be born to illegal aliens living in the U.S.

You may be intelligent, average, or ride the shortest bus they've got.

You may get lucky and be born with above avg intelligence into a very rich family.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tough question, not sure what my answer would be, although I can tell you it certainly wouldn't be a society which "maximized the minimum" at all costs. I imagine I would try to determine which social structures offered the highest expected values for me personally, and then make my selection among these by factoring in whatever my subjective aversion to variance happened to be at the time. I'd have to give it more thought to iron out all the details, but I imagine an ACist society would be a pretty good 1st order approximation.

Re: What would be your idea of a perfect society?
 

Polyandry

Re: What would be your idea of a perfect society?
 

I'm not sure but I know everyone would have a Pony.

Re: What would be your idea of a perfect society?
 

It would start with everyone owning land, by law -- subject to a minimum threshold of public accountability in its use.

No rent, no landlords, no homelessness, and the real estate speculators can kiss my ass.

Beyond that, there would be a basic public service requirement -- determined by what is necessary to maintain the basic health, education and welfare of the community.

That's the baseline -- everyone has a home, food for their kids, decent healthcare and a liveable community, and they have some basic civic responsibilities to go with it.

Beyond that, you can do as much or as little as you like, and your standard of living will rise or fall accordingly.


q/q

Re: What would be your idea of a perfect society?
 

OP, youre flaw is that youre arbitraraly choosing a set of ppl.
Ask yourself the same question but with American families, mexican families and malasyans over 35 that wear sandals.

Re: What would be your idea of a perfect society?
 

[ QUOTE ]

Beyond that, there would be a basic public service requirement -- determined by what is necessary to maintain the basic health, education and welfare of the community.

[/ QUOTE ]

You do realize that slavery ended in most countries because people who are forced to work do a pretty lousy job overall, right? You have read a history book before, right?

Re: What would be your idea of a perfect society?
 

[ QUOTE ]
You do realize that slavery ended in most countries because people who are forced to work do a pretty lousy job overall, right? You have read a history book before, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

That is a sleazy and dishonest attack, and you know it.

Slave laborers are human beings who are bought and sold as property, and disposed of at the whim of an "owner". Their lives are not their own, their labor is not their own. Read a history book yourself if you need some examples.

To equate that with free people who still have (*gasp*) civic responsibilities -- in order to provide for their families -- is pure idiocy.


q/q

Re: What would be your idea of a perfect society?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You do realize that slavery ended in most countries because people who are forced to work do a pretty lousy job overall, right? You have read a history book before, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

That is a sleazy and dishonest attack, and you know it.

Slave laborers are human beings who are bought and sold as property, and disposed of at the whim of an "owner". Their lives are not their own, their labor is not their own. Read a history book yourself if you need some examples.

To equate that with free people who still have (*gasp*) civic responsibilities -- in order to provide for their families -- is pure idiocy.


q/q

[/ QUOTE ]

You have a point only if your perfect society people volunteer for their civic duty. The second you force people to work against their will you have the very definition of slavery. Now would this slavery be somewhat less disgusting because you are only forcing them to lose x% of their life instead of 100%, but that, to quote Rothbard, is a difference only in scale, not in kind.

Re: What would be your idea of a perfect society?
 

Let me simplify this:

Whoever chooses not to contribute to the upkeep of their community is free to do so -- but, since they choose not to contribute, they will also receive nothing from it.

Fair enough?

They are, of course, free to leave and make their living shining shoes in the perfect Murray Rothbard state.


q/q

Re: What would be your idea of a perfect society?
 

[ QUOTE ]

Let me simplify this:

Whoever chooses not to contribute to the upkeep of their community is free to do so -- but, since they choose not to contribute, they will also receive nothing from it.

Fair enough?

They are, of course, free to leave and make their living shining shoes in the perfect Murray Rothbard state.


q/q

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry, I must have missed the part where you explained who got to determine who had to give what to the community, who got to own the land and where they got to file their complaint form before they were taken off to the gulag.

Re: What would be your idea of a perfect society?
 

[ QUOTE ]

Let me simplify this:

Whoever chooses not to contribute to the upkeep of their community is free to do so -- but, since they choose not to contribute, they will also receive nothing from it.

Fair enough?

They are, of course, free to leave and make their living shining shoes in the perfect Murray Rothbard state.


q/q

[/ QUOTE ]

If they are free to leave that would make them homeless wouldn't it? Will they still be eligible for food if they "choose" not to participate?

Re: What would be your idea of a perfect society?
 

tolbiny:

Your responses so far in this thread have been nothing but relentless personal attacks.

You have accused me of supporting human slavery and, now, "gulags". I assume you will next accuse me of membership in the Communist Party, or whatever else you think will rally the drooling right wing to your side. I sincerely hope you are not stupid enough to actually believe this nonsense, but, either way, I'm quite clear that nobody else here is.

Either way, you clearly cannot support your views, and you're clearly just going to attack me endlessly instead, so I see no point in continuing a discussion that can only result in me wasting more of my time on someone who hasn't got a clue and isn't likely to get one anytime soon.

Best of luck to you, we're done here.


q/q

Re: What would be your idea of a perfect society?
 

[ QUOTE ]

Either way, you clearly cannot support your views, and you're clearly just going to attack me endlessly instead

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? I defined slavery as forcing someone to work for someone else. I even gave you an out where you could just claim that in your perfect society everyone wanted to do their community service. My personal attack against you consisted of asking if you understood why slavery ended in the majority of "civilized" countries.

Re: What would be your idea of a perfect society?
 

You state this:

No rent, no landlords, no homelessness, and the real estate speculators can kiss my ass.

but say you are free to leave.... does that not make you homeless? (by the way... who gets the oceanfront property?)

And you state this:

That's the baseline -- everyone has a home, food for their kids, decent healthcare and a liveable community, and they have some basic civic responsibilities to go with it.

Do I get to eat, get medicine, schools etc if I choose to opt out of Utopia? Or am I just a wandering homeless man who will starve in the streets?

Re: What would be your idea of a perfect society?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If they are free to leave that would make them homeless wouldn't it? Will they still be eligible for food if they "choose" not to participate?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a very interesting question, and I suppose it depends on where you expect to get the food from.

Do you expect your neighbors to provide it -- without you paying for it and without you being willing to do anything to assist in providing it?

If not that way, then how do you propose to provide it?

In my view, nobody owes you a living. If you're willing to work, you get the benefit of what you help in producing. If you want to sit on your ass and do nothing, then you'd better have a Plan B. What that Plan B is is up to you.

Of course, yes, it still is possible for someone who will not work and who will not pay for food to go hungry. I didn't make that rule, that's just Reality 101.

As far as I can tell, guaranteeing everyone at least a piece of land is a very good starting point for not being forced to labor for someone else.

Secondly, guaranteeing everyone who *does* work that there will be a way for them and their families to get the full benefit of what they produce -- well, I don't see how anyone can honestly object to that, either.

If your fantasy, however, is to sit in your parents' basement and never have to work and spend 20 hours a day posting Murray Rothbard quotes to the internet (all on someone else's dime, of course) ... well, yeah, you might not like my ideal society then. If it matters to you, I don't much like yours, either [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Anyway, I think my ideal maximizes people's free choices, minimizes the ability of other people to force people into dependence and deprivation, and offers the best opportunities to the next generation. I think that's a pretty good starter for this discussion.

So far, all anyone else here has been able to do is accuse me of being a communist/subversive/(fill-in-the-blank). Which, although it may rally the rightwingers, is not an actual refutation or counterargument.


q/q

Re: What would be your idea of a perfect society?
 

[ QUOTE ]
You state this:

No rent, no landlords, no homelessness, and the real estate speculators can kiss my ass.

but say you are free to leave.... does that not make you homeless?

[/ QUOTE ]

The deal is simple:

If you are willing to accept a package of civic responsibilities, you get a package of civic benefits in exchange.

You are completely free to decline, in which case you are on your own. Maybe you have a better plan, in which case you're free to pursue it. And if all else fails, you're completely free to leave and find a country that works differently.

What's the problem?

[ QUOTE ]
(by the way... who gets the oceanfront property?)

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, for starters, who's actually working there?

[ QUOTE ]
And you state this:

That's the baseline -- everyone has a home, food for their kids, decent healthcare and a liveable community, and they have some basic civic responsibilities to go with it.

Do I get to eat, get medicine, schools etc if I choose to opt out of Utopia? Or am I just a wandering homeless man who will starve in the streets?

[/ QUOTE ]

Once again: if you aren't willing to work, and you're not willing to pay for those services, what are you expecting? Free ponies?

If you're willing to take part in providing those services, you get all of them.

It's entirely your choice.


q/q

Re: What would be your idea of a perfect society?
 

[ QUOTE ]

In my view, nobody owes you a living.


[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
It would start with everyone owning land, by law -- subject to a minimum threshold of public accountability in its use.

No rent, no landlords, no homelessness, and the real estate speculators can kiss my ass.

Beyond that, there would be a basic public service requirement -- determined by what is necessary to maintain the basic health, education and welfare of the community.

That's the baseline -- everyone has a home, food for their kids, decent healthcare and a liveable community, and they have some basic civic responsibilities to go with it.

Beyond that, you can do as much or as little as you like, and your standard of living will rise or fall accordingly.


q/q

[/ QUOTE ]

Did anybody else's head just asplode?

Re: What would be your idea of a perfect society?
 

Say I want to sell my state-provided land to Borodog so I can send my kid to Germany to get a cutting-edge cancer treatment only being done in Berlin, am I allowed to do this?

Re: What would be your idea of a perfect society?
 

[ QUOTE ]

It would start with everyone owning land, by law -- subject to a minimum threshold of public accountability in its use.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? What if I don't want to be a landowner and would rather live with a friend? Are you going to drag me off in chains?

Re: What would be your idea of a perfect society?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

In my view, nobody owes you a living.


[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
It would start with everyone owning land, by law -- subject to a minimum threshold of public accountability in its use.

No rent, no landlords, no homelessness, and the real estate speculators can kiss my ass.

Beyond that, there would be a basic public service requirement -- determined by what is necessary to maintain the basic health, education and welfare of the community.

That's the baseline -- everyone has a home, food for their kids, decent healthcare and a liveable community, and they have some basic civic responsibilities to go with it.

Beyond that, you can do as much or as little as you like, and your standard of living will rise or fall accordingly.


q/q

[/ QUOTE ]

Did anybody else's head just asplode?

[/ QUOTE ]

non-integrated thought FTW

Re: What would be your idea of a perfect society?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Say I want to sell my state-provided land to Borodog so I can send my kid to Germany to get a cutting-edge cancer treatment only being done in Berlin, am I allowed to do this?

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, great setup.

If I say "yes", then nobody is guaranteed land-ownership, because medical circumstance can force them back into landlessness.

But if I say "no", then I'm denying a child life-saving cancer-treatment.

Either way, I'm an evil man (I'm probably a communist too, apparantly).

Anyway, way to go.

But while we're thinking about this, I'm curious: what do you propose doing about the 43 million Americans who are in this exact same position right now -- except that homelessness and poverty are virtually guaranteed if their kids get that same rare cancer?

(note: my actual solution would be to have full medical education be part of the educational package for my country, so that kids with cancer wouldn't have to go to Germany to get treatment, because great medical care would be available right in their own communities, at no cost).

AFAIC, anyone who is willing and capable of being a doctor should have every chance to become one -- and this is also a matter of public interest. Failure to recognize this is the reason why your hypothetical child has to choose between homelessness and surviving cancer.


q/q

Re: What would be your idea of a perfect society?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why? What if I don't want to be a landowner and would rather live with a friend? Are you going to drag me off in chains?

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course not.

It's your choice, it's entirely up to you. I'm just saying that your right to make that choice should be guaranteed. If you change your mind, that choice will still always be there. As long as you're willing to accept the responsibilities that go with it, you will always have land that is yours.


q/q

Re: What would be your idea of a perfect society?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why? What if I don't want to be a landowner and would rather live with a friend? Are you going to drag me off in chains?

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course not.

It's your choice, it's entirely up to you. I'm just saying that your right to make that choice should be guaranteed. If you change your mind, that choice will still always be there. As long as you're willing to accept the responsibilities that go with it, you will always have land that is yours.


q/q

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay.

Re: What would be your idea of a perfect society?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why? What if I don't want to be a landowner and would rather live with a friend? Are you going to drag me off in chains?

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course not.

It's your choice, it's entirely up to you. I'm just saying that your right to make that choice should be guaranteed. If you change your mind, that choice will still always be there. As long as you're willing to accept the responsibilities that go with it, you will always have land that is yours.


q/q

[/ QUOTE ]

So if I sell off my land to buy crack, then when I smoke it I change my mind, I get more land?

This plan is flawless!

Re: What would be your idea of a perfect society?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why? What if I don't want to be a landowner and would rather live with a friend? Are you going to drag me off in chains?

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course not.

It's your choice, it's entirely up to you. I'm just saying that your right to make that choice should be guaranteed. If you change your mind, that choice will still always be there. As long as you're willing to accept the responsibilities that go with it, you will always have land that is yours.


q/q

[/ QUOTE ]

I am assuming there is a set amount of land given to each citizen. What happens when the population exceeds the amount of land? You have already stated that landlords are forbidden, so I cannot build an apartment bldg for excess population to reside in.

Options as I see them:

Kill old people
Kill or forbid new births
Kill by "lotto"
Take land back and divide up again (red tape nightmare)

I vote for kill old people.

Re: What would be your idea of a perfect society?
 

[ QUOTE ]
You have a point only if your perfect society people volunteer for their civic duty. The second you force people to work against their will you have the very definition of slavery. Now would this slavery be somewhat less disgusting because you are only forcing them to lose x% of their life instead of 100%, but that, to quote Rothbard, is a difference only in scale, not in kind.

[/ QUOTE ]

In a represantative democratic system it would mean people indeed volunteered for their civic duty. As long as the constitution is considered as being agreed upon by every member of the society.

It's the classic principle of Legitimization. People aren't entitled to partake in every single decision. And they are bound by these democratic decisions irrespective of them agreeing upon every single one. Cause they legitimized this process through agreeing to the constitutional contract.

Don't like it - choose the exit option and leave.

Re: What would be your idea of a perfect society?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I am assuming there is a set amount of land given to each citizen.

[/ QUOTE ]

Certainly open to debate, but sure, ok.

[ QUOTE ]
What happens when the population exceeds the amount of land?

[/ QUOTE ]

What happens under every other system?

By definition, you either work with your existing resources to put them to better and more efficient use, or you acquire more resources.

Right now, the US military is in Iraq killing people for this precise purpose. Iraq isn't the first nation in the gunsights, and it won't be the last.

I would add that, when resources are limited, concentrating them into the hands of a very small elite (as we do in this country) is probably the best way to exacerbate this limited-resources problem. Hence, our small problem with military aggression.

[ QUOTE ]
You have already stated that landlords are forbidden, so I cannot build an apartment bldg for excess population to reside in.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's not actually what I said, but whatever.

I'm curious why you think that things like an apartment building can't exist without a landlord to profiteer off of them.

Landlords don't design buildings, architects do.
Landlords don't build buildings, either. Construction workers and skilled tradesmen do that.
Landlords actually don't do much of anything except extract rent and organize other people's labor (and mostly just for maintenance purposes).

I think that, with community resources, and with a large pool of skilled labor that benefits directly and personally from the work, it is easy to see how apartment buildings and larger public works could be organized, built and maintained without some extra group of profiteers in there skimming off a fat layer for themselves.

You actually don't need anything more than the labor and resources that are being used to build and maintain these projects now. The only question, really, is to how the labor is organized and who retains the benefits.

[ QUOTE ]
Options as I see them:

Kill old people
Kill or forbid new births
Kill by "lotto"
Take land back and divide up again (red tape nightmare)

I vote for kill old people.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really find it fascinating how right-wingers like you are obsessed with turning all of their opponents into mass-murderers, communists and devils.

I wonder which devil I get to be next.

Tune in tomorrow, kids.


q/q

Re: What would be your idea of a perfect society?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You have a point only if your perfect society people volunteer for their civic duty. The second you force people to work against their will you have the very definition of slavery. Now would this slavery be somewhat less disgusting because you are only forcing them to lose x% of their life instead of 100%, but that, to quote Rothbard, is a difference only in scale, not in kind.

[/ QUOTE ]

In a represantative democratic system it would mean people indeed volunteered for their civic duty. As long as the constitution is considered as being agreed upon by every member of the society.

It's the classic principle of Legitimization. People aren't entitled to partake in every single decision. And they are bound by these democratic decisions irrespective of them agreeing upon every single one. Cause they legitimized this process through agreeing to the constitutional contract.

Don't like it - choose the exit option and leave.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bogus, time and again debunked as crap. The laws, and rules for repealing those laws, were passed by people long since deceased. In any representative democracy one is born into a system in which a set of privileged elites lay down the rules for others to abide by. If its Q/Q telling a bunch of people they have to work in a soup kitchen to be allowed to live in the country or white people telling blacks they have to pick cotton or be whipped the principles of slavery are the same. Individuals MUST predate the state, this means that nay non unanimous decision forcing labor must be slavery.

Re: What would be your idea of a perfect society?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Bogus, time and again debunked as crap. The laws, and rules for repealing those laws, were passed by people long since deceased.

[/ QUOTE ]

I call this bogus. I'd be interested in where this has been "time and again debunked as crap." On this forum? Sorry while I'm laughing my arse of.
In a democracy these rules are always free to be abolished. In AC-Land there's also path dependency and network externalities that restrict youz to certain sets of institutions.

[ QUOTE ]
In any representative democracy one is born into a system in which a set of privileged elites lay down the rules for others to abide by.

[/ QUOTE ]

Based on what, reason or "empirical observation" - if you consider yourself close to the Austrian School reason should be your only framework.

[ QUOTE ]
Individuals MUST predate the state, this means that nay non unanimous decision forcing labor must be slavery.

[/ QUOTE ]

The state doesn't deprive you of the right to leave or to refuse to work and doesn't force you to work without compensation. You aren't property of the state.

Re: What would be your idea of a perfect society?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What happens when the population exceeds the amount of land?

[/ QUOTE ]

What happens under every other system?

By definition, you either work with your existing resources to put them to better and more efficient use, or you acquire more resources.

Right now, the US military is in Iraq killing people for this precise purpose. Iraq isn't the first nation in the gunsights, and it won't be the last.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL. You're way off the mark.

The US Military isn't trying to "put existing resources to better and more efficient use". That should be obvious. And the US military isn't trying to acquire more resources. There's no "conquest" in that sense going on. If the US government wanted to get *access* to stuff in Iraq like oil, Saddam would have happily sold it at market prices. The US imposed the sanctions, not the other way around, remember? Now we're paying over $5000/barrel to "acquire resources."

Get real. War IS a racket, but you're way off on how it works.


[ QUOTE ]
I'm curious why you think that things like an apartment building can't exist without a landlord to profiteer off of them.

Landlords don't design buildings, architects do.
Landlords don't build buildings, either. Construction workers and skilled tradesmen do that.
Landlords actually don't do much of anything except extract rent and organize other people's labor (and mostly just for maintenance purposes).

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, leninnites though the same thing. Businesses can be run without owners. It turned out pretty good, don't you think?

Who is going to decide when and where to build apartment buildings?

Just as the Soviets ended up with silos full of rotting grain while millions starved, you're going to end up with huge empty apartment buildings while people die of exposure.


[ QUOTE ]
I really find it fascinating how right-wingers like you are obsessed with turning all of their opponents into mass-murderers, communists and devils.

[/ QUOTE ]

Since everyone is so big on "empirical" evidence around here, all we have to do is look at the results from the last time what you're suggesting was tried. Mass-murderers and communists sounds pretty damn accurate to me.

Re: What would be your idea of a perfect society?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If (use your imagination if you don't believe in an afterlife) God came to you in Heaven and told you that you were going to be born and that your birth would be random into a family living in the U.S.

You may be born to a family living in the ghetto.

You may be born to illegal aliens living in the U.S.

You may be intelligent, average, or ride the shortest bus they've got.

You may get lucky and be born with above avg intelligence into a very rich family.

[/ QUOTE ]

Starship Troopers (the book not the movie)

Re: What would be your idea of a perfect society?
 

Now I know why Q/Q sticks to trolling rather than posting what he REALLY thinks.

He makes Moorobot's utopia look desirable.

Re: What would be your idea of a perfect society?
 

[ QUOTE ]
In a democracy these rules are always free to be abolished.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong, the rules can be quite difficult to change, certain methods (constitutional amendments) were intentionally setup to be difficult to change, even when 55, 60 or 70 % of the voting population want a new rule. Gerrymandering gives a huge advantage for those in power to remain in power. Supreme court judges are appointed for life. Intentional entrenchment is the word of the day for democracies, not responding to the changing will of the people.

[ QUOTE ]


Based on what, reason or "empirical observation" - if you consider yourself close to the Austrian School reason should be your only framework.


[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong, the Austrian school uses logic to describe what we see in the real world.

[ QUOTE ]

Individuals MUST predate the state, this means that nay non unanimous decision forcing labor must be slavery.



The state doesn't deprive you of the right to leave or to refuse to work and doesn't force you to work without compensation. You aren't property of the state.

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously you weren't reading very closely as Q/Q specifically said that his ideal community would have people who were mandated to perform community service. And a lack of compensation isn't definitive of slavery (in fact slaves are granted compensation or else they would starve to death) it is the structure in which one group sets the rules and the other has to follow under threat of violence.

[ QUOTE ]


The state doesn't deprive you of the right to leave

[/ QUOTE ]

Again individuals predate the state, the "claim" that the state makes over a territory is clearly illegitimate without full consent of those involved.

Re: What would be your idea of a perfect society?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Mass-murderers and communists sounds pretty damn accurate to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

question for iron:

Do you consider accusing someone of being a "mass-murderer" and "communist" to be a personal attack under the rules of this forum?

I have tried to respect the new civility requirements here, and I am seriously asking.


q/q