Live NL pre-flop raise sizing
 

I've never played live no-limit before. When I play online I use the 4xBB + 1BB per limper rule.

I'm going to be staying/playing at Treasure island who spreads a $1/$3 NL game. If I'm open raising I would raise to $12 using my standard pre-flop raise size rule. But it seems like while playing live making a $12 bet when most people are going to have stacks of $5 chips and some $1s for the blinds, will slow the game down.

I've also heard that most live games have much larger pre-flop raises, say 6xBB, or that some people just always raise to some set amount. Should I just observe the table for an orbit and see how it goes and raise what everyone else is raising or should I stick with the rule I'm used to using when playing online?

Re: Live NL pre-flop raise sizing
 

See what happens for a round or two.

I don't play no limit hold 'em, but I've watched my best friend play the $1/2 game at Foxwoods and it's no unusual to see pre-flop raises of $35 or so. I once saw a guy make it $75 and then get pissed off when no one called his aces (he slammed it down on the table, it was hilarious).

Re: Live NL pre-flop raise sizing
 

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I don't play no limit hold 'em, but I've watched my best friend play the $1/2 game at Foxwoods and it's no unusual to see pre-flop raises of $35 or so. I once saw a guy make it $75 and then get pissed off when no one called his aces (he slammed it down on the table, it was hilarious).

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Ok, thats a bit excessive for an opening raise at 1/2.

Depends on the table. I find most tables are between 12 and 20 dollars. Which is great because you can raise to 5 and people just treat it as limping. Lets you build some nice pots.

Re: Live NL pre-flop raise sizing
 

Just watch and see how the game is playing. Oftentimes, games play differently. If you get a hand before you get a chance to observe, limp and call a raise.

Re: Live NL pre-flop raise sizing
 

In the places in NYC, a $12-15 raise will get 5 callers, a $17-20 raise will get 3, and a $25 raise will get no callers if you have TT-AA, but if you have AK you'll get one caller with pocket 7s and he'll push, and it will hold up.

Re: Live NL pre-flop raise sizing
 

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In the places in NYC, a $12-15 raise will get 5 callers, a $17-20 raise will get 3, and a $25 raise will get no callers if you have TT-AA, but if you have AK you'll get one caller with pocket 7s and he'll push, and it will hold up.

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Sounds about right for L.A., too

Re: Live NL pre-flop raise sizing
 

Raise the amount that will most likely achieve the SPR that you are interested in playing post-flop.

Min-raises don't get punished much by light reraisers in most of the live games I've played. Instead, they get treated like straddles. So, if you min-raise with a mid-sized pair, you'll probably only get reraised by AK/QQ-AA, and otherwise you just build a big pot in case you flop a set.

Large raises when you have AK/QQ-AA frequently get called by small pairs and suited aces calling to "see a flop" without good implied odds.

3-bet a little light to isolate short stack reraisers who go all in. For example, you raise in MP to 5bb with a hand like 99 or AQs, you get 3 callers to the BB who goes all in for 20bb, and its folded back to you. At this point, the shorty usually has any pair, AT-AK, and any suited broadways, so reraise to 60bb in order to fold out the two callers behind you. You'll be coin flipping over the original cold callers' dead money most of the time.

What you don't want to do, is auto-raise some fixed amount just to end up OOP with QQ and an SPR of 13 on a low-coordinated flop vs some triky guy in LP. He'll just make you miserable on the turn or river.

So, I would recommend a wide mix of raise sizes with the goal of manipulating the size of the pot to make your own play easier post flop.

The 5/5 NL 1000 buy in at Ocean's 11 sees raises anywhere from a min-raise to $150 (usually in a reraised pot) get callers pretty frequently. $20 - $40 is typical. $50 open raises are also pretty common for LAGs out for a night of gambling.

Re: Live NL pre-flop raise sizing
 

Here is what my experience has taught me:

First, don't worry one bit about slowing the game down by raising odd amounts. Most dealers are very quick at making change. If you open for $12, it won't faze a soul.

Second, I have seen the absolute most common raise to be 5xBB and most people don't adjust for added limpers.

Third, people are MUCH looser about calling raises in a casino. If you make a big raise with a big hand you will probably get called by the same donks who would have called a 5xBB raise.

Fourth, you should tend to value bet more often in a casino game and give less credence to small raises. I see people calling value bets and even making small raises 'to find out where they are' with some pretty weak hands in casino games. Punish these people!

Fifth, you should be more careful about trying to buy the pot preflop. Personally, I make plays at the pot preflop about 50x as often online as in a live game, simply due to the fact that it almost never works in a casino. In fact, if you simply removed the 'preflop steal' play from your arsenal in a casino game, you probably aren't giving up much. Simply put, assume your preflop raises will get called, probably by 2 or more people unless the raise is huge, and even then it could get called by many people.

Most importantly, do not just raise a 'standard raise' or anything like that. As some have already pointed out, make the raise that will produce the size pot that you would like to play. If you have not already done so, read Sklansky and Miller's chapter in No Limit Hold'em on sizing your preflop raises. I cannot stress how much more important this concept is in a casino game, mostly due to the fact that no one is trying to figure out what your different sized raises mean and the fact that most preflop raises are called and you will have to play postflop.

Re: Live NL pre-flop raise sizing
 

standard raise at 1/2 is $10. If someone raises to $15 or higher it screams pocket pair 88+, its amazing how the $5 difference in raise tells so much. This is just my experience though.

Re: Live NL pre-flop raise sizing
 

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standard raise at 1/2 is $10. If someone raises to $15 or higher it screams pocket pair 88+, its amazing how the $5 difference in raise tells so much. This is just my experience though.

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wat?

Re: Live NL pre-flop raise sizing
 

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standard raise at 1/2 is $10. If someone raises to $15 or higher it screams pocket pair 88+, its amazing how the $5 difference in raise tells so much. This is just my experience though.

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There is often something to this, but I've seen it be "scared" QQ as well. One thing it does (nearly always) scream is that the raiser isn't very good at postflop play.

Re: Live NL pre-flop raise sizing
 

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I don't play no limit hold 'em, but I've watched my best friend play the $1/2 game at Foxwoods and it's no unusual to see pre-flop raises of $35 or so. I once saw a guy make it $75 and then get pissed off when no one called his aces (he slammed it down on the table, it was hilarious).

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Ok, thats a bit excessive for an opening raise at 1/2.

Depends on the table. I find most tables are between 12 and 20 dollars. Which is great because you can raise to 5 and people just treat it as limping. Lets you build some nice pots.

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It is excessive but it happens more times than you'd think it should.

OP, watch for a round or two and see what the typical raise is. Online and live betting patterns are completely different.

Re: Live NL pre-flop raise sizing
 

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Should I just observe the table for an orbit and see how it goes....?

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That's a good rule of thumb to start out with. You should NOT mechanically make a too-small raise just because that's what your "rule" says. You shouldn't do that online either, because not every game is the same.

To be a little more sophisticated, with a good hand you want to raise the maximum that one or two people will likely call. If it's $1-2 and you think they'll call a raise to $20, make it $20.

To be even more sophisticated, if you're not already an excellent NLHE player, buy Professional No-Limit Hold 'em, the new Flynn/Mehti/Miller book. Most of its examples are referring to B&M poker.

Re: Live NL pre-flop raise sizing
 

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standard raise at 1/2 is $10. If someone raises to $15 or higher it screams pocket pair 88+, its amazing how the $5 difference in raise tells so much. This is just my experience though.

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There is often something to this, but I've seen it be "scared" QQ as well. One thing it does (nearly always) scream is that the raiser isn't very good at postflop play.

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Add AJ to that mix as well.

Re: Live NL pre-flop raise sizing
 

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There is often something to this, but I've seen it be "scared" QQ as well. One thing it does (nearly always) scream is that the raiser isn't very good at postflop play.

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QFT. I've seen it with QQ. Certainly with JJ, because, you know, jacks never win.

Re: Live NL pre-flop raise sizing
 

I've been toying with the idea of picking up the Flynn book. Sounds like watching the table for an orbit or two is the best strategy. I use the 4xBB + 1BB/limper rule since I play micro stakes and that seems to be the accepted practice for those levels.

Thanks for the replies, very useful information. Oh how I love the B&M forum.

Re: Live NL pre-flop raise sizing
 

But my point is, online if you're at a table full of donks who'll call a push with AA, push with AA. Granted, you probably won't know that offhand, but you may get a sense that 10 BBL or more raises are accepted.

Good luck! Once you experience B&M, online might seem like a pale imitation. But YMMV.

Re: Live NL pre-flop raise sizing
 

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To be even more sophisticated, if you're not already an excellent NLHE player, buy Professional No-Limit Hold 'em, the new Flynn/Mehti/Miller book. Most of its examples are referring to B&M poker.

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Hey, thanks for that tip. I've been a bit out of the loop for a while so this is the first I've heard about it. I just ordered a copy.

Re: Live NL pre-flop raise sizing
 

I've read/reading NLHTAP for a while now, but just ordered Professional No-Limit Hold 'em. I've got a week to read it, absorb all information and perfectly apply all principles before I'm in vegas. :P

Re: Live NL pre-flop raise sizing
 

semi-grunching

Most 3x or 4x raises at the low levels will be called by everybody. I've abandoned the idea of small preflop raising and instead my standard (in the 2/2 100NL game I play in) is to make it $20 + $5 per limper unless these raises are getting no action at all, in which case I'll adjust to something like $12 + $3 per limper. I actually got into a discussion with another player one day and he and I were laughing at these preflop raises to $30 straight, $40 straight, but then those raises were being CALLED, so why not? A little while later, he picked up AA in the BB and after a couple of limpers, made it $50 to go (lol) and gets LRR'ed all-in for like $150 by AKs and then overcalled all-in for about $100 with KQo. LOL DOCUMENTS.

Re: Live NL pre-flop raise sizing
 

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standard raise at 1/2 is $10. If someone raises to $15 or higher it screams pocket pair 88+, its amazing how the $5 difference in raise tells so much. This is just my experience though.

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There is often something to this, but I've seen it be "scared" QQ as well. One thing it does (nearly always) scream is that the raiser isn't very good at postflop play.

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Add AJ to that mix as well.

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Or 8 10 sooted.

Re: Live NL pre-flop raise sizing
 

I was sitting on the BTN at Borgata one night...UTG+1 makes it 15....3 callers...to me....i make it $50 to go with KK on button....i figure - 15*4 = 60 , was a loose game, so i made it 50...got 1 caller...so...60+50+35 = 145 , thats a juicy Preflop Pot. Obviously, i coulda done things differently, but it was the 1-4am time when the LAG Donks show up...and i had just taken the guy for about 120 a few hands before with AA...so i wanted to isolate him...he stacked off with 99 on a 10,2,2 - 7 - K rainbow board. I Love the borgata when bars let out


when i left the room that night...i noticed a guy at the next tabel with about 3K at a 1/2 table...i have yet to hit a run of cards like that

Re: Live NL pre-flop raise sizing
 

Live play is really weird sometimes. You'll see all sorts of strange amounts, like raising to $17 or whatever. Or bets of $16 on the flop when the pot holds $40. Once the preflop raise gets over 4x, just start rounding to $5 chips I say.

Anyway, this strangeness and looseness gives you a lot of flexibility in your raising amounts. Once you see what the raises mean at your table, you can start raising to anywhere between $2 and $20 at a $1/2 table. This gives you a great deal of flexibility in manipulating the pot size, if not the number of players to see the flop. It can be very helpful to know that if you have aces, you raise to $20, and one of your opponents has $80, he can't hurt you no matter what happens on the flop.

Re: Live NL pre-flop raise sizing
 

The majority of your opponents will have no idea about pot size raises preflop or 3 betting to isolate. They do what those around them do, and you can exploit it. The average pf raise is at my local room is 12-15. A reraise usually means JJ-AA or AK, but the players have no idea why they are reraising or how much they should make it.

Friday night I am playing in my regular 1-2 game. I catch AA in the SB in a straddled pot. ($5 straddle with $175 effective stacks). Three callers making it $23 in the pot. I make it $50 to go, the table looks at me like I am an idiot, and I get berated for losing all of my customers. Most of your opponents just won't get it.

Re: Live NL pre-flop raise sizing
 

This is kind of related:

When I played live the first time at Caesar's Palace playing 1/2NL, there was a pot I was involved in where I was the BB, everyone limped to me, so I checked. I had 2 pair on the flop, and me not knowing what to do, I bet $2. I got some "is that it?" replies.

"Is that not enough, dealer?"
Dealer laughs, "It is a legal bet..."

folds all around.

Re: Live NL pre-flop raise sizing
 

You are correct that generally the pf raise size live is much bigger.

You can't just stick with your preset amount. If you do that, you find yourself with AA in a 6-handed pot. And I guarantee you that the action on the flop is going to make your AA shrivel right up.

Here is a example hand. One of my first hands at a new 1/2 NL table was KK in CO. UTG+1 raise to $10, call, call, me raise to $50 and three calls. I have $150 behind and a $203 pot. No A, UTG bet $50, I shove, get two calls. Both have A8 on a 8 6 2 board. Case 8 comes on the river. I have to excuse myself since this was right after lunch and I only brought $200, duh..

Re: Live NL pre-flop raise sizing
 

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standard raise at 1/2 is $10. If someone raises to $15 or higher it screams pocket pair 88+, its amazing how the $5 difference in raise tells so much. This is just my experience though.

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There is often something to this, but I've seen it be "scared" QQ as well. One thing it does (nearly always) scream is that the raiser isn't very good at postflop play.

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Add AJ to that mix as well.

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Or 8 10 sooted.

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Not really. Most people at those stakes prefer to limp with these types of hands.

Re: Live NL pre-flop raise sizing
 

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standard raise at 1/2 is $10. If someone raises to $15 or higher it screams pocket pair 88+, its amazing how the $5 difference in raise tells so much. This is just my experience though.

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There is often something to this, but I've seen it be "scared" QQ as well. One thing it does (nearly always) scream is that the raiser isn't very good at postflop play.

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This is true. In fact making the std $10 preflop raise will disguise the strength of say a KK or AA. I've had players call me down with Ace high or any Top pair b/c I made a "small" preflop raise.

Casino games, especially at 1-2NL, have been extremely fishy in my experience. The rule is that it plays about 10 times worse in stakes than online. I.e. 1-2NL online plays like 10-20NL live, etc.

I will say this.. as 1-2NL live game is extremely loose. It's really an issue of patience and pushing big hands and folding the rest of the time. Figure out the suckers real fast and you will very rarely lose. Usually about half the table or more are complete donks.

Re: Live NL pre-flop raise sizing
 

I plan to mostly play at Treasure island which spreads a $1/$3 NL $500 max game.

I'm now trying to figure out how to adjust, if much at all, for the deep stack aspect of the game. I've read a bit in the NLTAP book about how the game is different but probably need to read some more.

Of course this is a whole other thread [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: Live NL pre-flop raise sizing
 

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I've never played live no-limit before. When I play online I use the 4xBB + 1BB per limper rule.

I'm going to be staying/playing at Treasure island who spreads a $1/$3 NL game.

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live no-limit is just like online no-limit, except it's much slower and much easier, and you don't have to get your own beer.

Re: Live NL pre-flop raise sizing
 

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live no-limit is just like online no-limit, except it's much slower and much easier, and you don't have to get your own beer.

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Which chapter in your book covers drink service? [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: Live NL pre-flop raise sizing
 

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I plan to mostly play at Treasure island which spreads a $1/$3 NL $500 max game.


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TI is currently the only place I play. I am very used to that game and can offer some basic advice, as I have been playing there quite a bit for several months now.

Due to its higher then normal max, stack sizes are always very different. Many tourists come in for $100-300, and very few come for the max. I personally always buy max, and usually have the table covered.

Standard opening raises vary from $12-15 though $15-$20 is also fairly common. It is very rare that a standard opening raise is consistly $20 or more.

Micro raises (those under $10) are strictly pot bulders, as are raises of $10 exactly, most of the time.

TI has been quite bustling lately, for an 8 table room. Last night, they had 5 cash games (which is a few for a monday night), 3NL and 2LHE. I checked each NL table and saw exactly 2 regulars on each NL game out of the 9 players, which is also their standard. On Saturday night, they had all 8 tables going with 5 NL and 3 LHE, which caused them to cancel their 2AM tourney due to non table availability.

Usually 2-3 locals and 6-7 tourists.

They give $2 per hour comps, uncapped, which can be used at all TI restaurants, so be sure you have your card, or they can make one for you in the room.

Feel free to PM me for more detailed info. Personally, I love the TI Poker room, and its staff, and look forward to meeting you at the table!

Re: Live NL pre-flop raise sizing
 

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I once saw a guy make it $75 and then get pissed off when no one called his aces (he slammed it down on the table, it was hilarious).

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What a moron.

I was playing with this poor Asian kid (not poor like poverty, poor like I felt sorry for him because he was patient and trying.) I too was a little surprised by the crazy raise sizes in live $1/2 poker. This kid slid out a $25 chip. Unfortunately that was just a call. He was visibly disappointed. I of course called with my 76 or whatever. I flopped a straight draw, and he checked it (we were 6 way.) My straight came on the turn, he bet the pot, and I raised all in. I was sure he had aces and I was sure he'd call. He squirmed for awhile, and to his credit finally folded his aces face up. Oh well.

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Friday night I am playing in my regular 1-2 game. I catch AA in the SB in a straddled pot. ($5 straddle with $175 effective stacks). Three callers making it $23 in the pot. I make it $50 to go, the table looks at me like I am an idiot, and I get berated for losing all of my customers. Most of your opponents just won't get it.

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No, most players totally don't get it. In a wild and loose $1/3 game, I once saw a preflop raise to $16 (where they come up with these numbers I have no idea.) There were 2 more callers and a guy with AA on the button just called. Then on the flop he bets his overpair out, got raised, and third player goes all in. He makes a "big laydown". One player shows KK and the all-in pusher shows 88. 88 makes a set on the turn. KK makes a backdoor flush on the river. AA man thinks he's a genius.

I did not make any of that up. AA man was quite proud of his saavy.

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I will say this.. as 1-2NL live game is extremely loose.

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GET OUT!

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I once saw a preflop raise to $16 (where they come up with these numbers I have no idea.)

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I often make slightly weird raises (37, 97, 46, ...). I do it just because I find it funny, and entertaining myself is my only real goal in life. Although I'm starting to think some people spend more time analyzing the extra dollar or two then thinking about what my actual bet means.