Picking up a new game - Stud or Omaha
 

Currently, I'm exclusively a NLHE player. I'd like to add a new non-holdem game, because (1) I think adding variety will be fun and (2) I've heard that playing a variety of games helps players improve in all their games. Since most players today start with NLHE, I figure the transition from exclusive NLHE to a broader array of games must be a pretty common experience for poker players.

So, anyone who's decided to take up a non-hold 'em game: what games have you found you liked? Which have good profit potential at B&M?

Specifics about my situation:

-I mostly play in Atlantic City. Occasionally, I go to Foxwoods, and I try to get to Vegas once or twice a year.
-I get in an average of six hours of play per month (more if I take a Vegas trip).
-I am a modestly winning live 1-2 NL player (winrate of $30/hr over an admittedly small sample of 44 hours since I began tracking eight months ago).
-I am an adequate LHE player, but I find NLHE to be more profitable and more fun, so I rarely play LHE and am not particularly interested in playing it more.
-While I'm open to taking up more than one new game eventually, I'd like to do so one at a time so I can focus on getting good at each.

My personal inclination is toward Stud, just based on what I've seen on TV that looked fun. That said, I am eager to hear others' guidance.

Re: Picking up a new game - Stud or Omaha
 

The only omaha common in B&M is LO8.

Re: Picking up a new game - Stud or Omaha
 

You're going to find more Stud games in AC then you will Omaha. And like it was said above you're only going to find O/8 live.

Re: Picking up a new game - Stud or Omaha
 

Stud seems more fun than Omahahahaha

Re: Picking up a new game - Stud or Omaha
 

IMO it would be best to learn O8 and Stud hi/lo. Go out and buy the 2+2 hi/low split poker book (Ray Zee?) it will really teach you how to play those games. Borgata has a 10/20 O.E. game that runs pretty much everyday. There is also the 5/10 O8 game at the Taj which is pretty good.

Also, there are a few O.E. games in NYC that range from 20/40 - 100/200+. Sometimes these games are just omaha 8 since most of the people that play in them just love to gamboooool.

Good luck with whatever you choose. Learning other forms of poker is beneficial to your game and often times fun as well.

Re: Picking up a new game - Stud or Omaha
 

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I mostly play in Atlantic City.

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If you're going to play in Atlantic City at the kind of limits you're talking about, forget hi/lo anything and go with regular Stud hi. You can dabble around with 1-5 for a bit, but 5-10 plays better.

Seven Card Stud for Advanced Players is pretty much it. The Reese chapter in SS1 still holds up somewhat. The Stud forum guys can tell you more than I can about that, but I think the hi/lo idea for low limit play in AC is a bad idea.

Also, if you do go with Stud, you're new friends will be about 70 years old on average.

Re: Picking up a new game - Stud or Omaha
 

I'd go with stud, but I'm biased. If you play in AC, you might want to start with the $1/5 at Bally's. That game has a .50 cent ante, and will have more action than 1/5 games at the Taj. I've heard that the 1/5 at Harrah's is decent too. Trop has a newer 3/6 (no ante) game that has good action also. If you have the bankroll, you could start at $5/10 (Taj, Trop), which plays more like a "real" stud game.

Foxwoods has a lot of stud games, and spreads 1/5 (.50 ante) & 5/10. FWIW, I've heard both are looser than AC stud games.

Re: Picking up a new game - Stud or Omaha
 

The experience of branching out from nlhe to anything else is basically non-existent because nlhe killed everything else. Also, (thanks to the wpt) now poker = hold'em. The dumbing down of america is both on your tv and in your local cardroom.

Players like me, who've been playing all kinds of poker for a long time, are the most irritated by this hold'em bullcrap driving everything else into oblivion.

That being said, since you're on the east coast, the occasional player may remember what it was like before hold'em killed everything, and thus you might actually find a stud or other game.

If you like arguing constantly, and think nits are cool, play omaha-8.

If you like a game with strategy, thinking, and all that jazz, play stud.

And oh yeah, 1-5 sucks, 5-10 w/ 50c ante kicks butt.

Al

Re: Picking up a new game - Stud or Omaha
 

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The experience of branching out from nlhe to anything else is basically non-existent because nlhe killed everything else.

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That's just not true on the East Coast. I grant that the jokes above about the average age demographic of 7-stud are right on target. OK, they're an exaggeration. Average age is really just 66.

I share your sadness that NLHE has driven out other B&M games too. But at least online gives us a lot more possibilities to practice non-HE poker.

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And oh yeah, 1-5 sucks, 5-10 w/ 50c ante kicks butt.


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I've only played $1-3 and $1-5, but the Foxwoods $1-3 was anted 50 cents, which IIRC is proportionally a higher ante than the $75-150 game!

Re: Picking up a new game - Stud or Omaha
 

The Foxwoods 1-3 used to be no ante. They added the ante in 2003 or early 2004 IIRC. I think the reason was to kill off the 1-3 and only spread 1-5, but it didn't work.

Re: Picking up a new game - Stud or Omaha
 

With a five minute lesson you could be beating the 5-10 O8B at the Taj, it is much easier to pick up than Stud and since you only play 6 hours a month this is an easy decison..O8B.

Re: Picking up a new game - Stud or Omaha
 

I have been playing holdem for a while. For me O8 is a serious mind####. Just don't understand it at all. I think that with your hours played and "WR," it doesn't matter. You don't expect to become super great at either one. I think the best would be to play one for one half a day, then the second for the other half. Whichever one you enjoy better, go with it.

Re: Picking up a new game - Stud or Omaha
 

I have been learning non-holdem games and I highly recommend it. It will definetely improve your poker skills.

All the things the other posters have said about old guys, NITS and arguments are accurate. O/8 players are old and they love to complain but they also draw to runner runner lows.

There isn't much Stud played around here except for $30-60 on Friday nights at Caesar's IN. There is a $1-5 Stud game at Casino Aztar. I haven't played but the average age is at least 70 and the average chip stack is less than what it costs me to drive the round trip.

Re: Picking up a new game - Stud or Omaha
 

*mod note* - technically this thread doesn't belong in B&M because its not a B&M specific question. Since I can't think of a forum on 2+2 where it would be a good fit except the Omaha or Stud forums (where the OP won't receive an unbiased answer in either), I guess we can leave it in B&M.

From my own personal experience playing nearly every variant of poker under the sun (even Chinese Poker) I wouldn't advise Stud or O8 to be your "second game", you should first learn to play limit Hold'em before switching to either of these games, limit is a totally different animal and you will be better served knowing the concepts behind the Fundamental Therm of Poker (as discussed in TOP) before moving to Stud or Omaha 8.

Good luck on your first step towards learning to play other games!

Re: Picking up a new game - Stud or Omaha
 

He plays LHE and doesn't like it that much

Re: Picking up a new game - Stud or Omaha
 

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He plays LHE and doesn't like it that much

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I caught that, if he doesnt like limit Hold'em then he will be a fish out of water in the O8 and Stud games. He really needs to learn how to correctly play limit hold'em first because his NL skills will not translate well to O8 or stud.

Re: Picking up a new game - Stud or Omaha
 

Another reason to back TT's advice about LLHE. When you come to Las Vegas, good luck finding Stud and O/8 is a trip off the strip at best. You'll be able to find LHE games if you want a break from NLHE.

I like O/8. I play in LA but when I am getting ready for a Vegas run, I STOP playing O/8 because I WON'T be playing any O/8 in LV.

Re: Picking up a new game - Stud or Omaha
 

I concur with what TT said. If you want to learn another game, you're going to have to learn to play limit correctly. LHE is, by far, the easiest way to do this -- the easiest to practice, the easiest to game select, etc..

I don't much care for LHE anymore either, but I am glad I learned to play this first, because it has provided me a really solid theoretical foundation for all the other games I've learned (and I play all the stud variants pretty well).

Re: Picking up a new game - Stud or Omaha
 

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I concur with what TT said. If you want to learn another game, you're going to have to learn to play limit correctly. LHE is, by far, the easiest way to do this -- the easiest to practice, the easiest to game select, etc..

I don't much care for LHE anymore either, but I am glad I learned to play this first, because it has provided me a really solid theoretical foundation for all the other games I've learned (and I play all the stud variants pretty well).

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I should have added that I recommend learning Razz before Stud (and after limit hold'em) because its the easiest form to master and the most applicable to applying the concepts of the Fundamental Theorem of Poker.

Re: Picking up a new game - Stud or Omaha
 

I'm going to disagree with some other folks here and say do not make LHE your 2nd game if NLHE is your first. I think the differences between the two games may at least initially have a negative effect since both are HE.

I'd suggest stud for 2 reasons.

1. You play in AC & FW. You are in stud central. There will always be a lot of stud games to choose from.

2. After NLHE, limit O/8 will be like watching paint dry, except more boring.

Re: Picking up a new game - Stud or Omaha
 

Thanks to everyone for your input. I think I'm going to take TT's advice and revisit LHE, with an eye toward taking up stud after I feel my LHE game is solid. I think it's true that I don't have a really solid limit grounding and I see why that will be important for these other games.

I'll have to dust off my copy of SSHE.

If and when I'm looking to start playing Razz, can I find that live other than at a HORSE table? I wouldn't want to play HORSE because (1) the limits tend to be high, (2) I'd get little time actually playing Razz, and (3) I wouldn't be in a position to play OSE well.

Re: Picking up a new game - Stud or Omaha
 

I know this is a b&m forum, but try playing on-line. Even if you don't have a lot of money, you should be able to find a pentium 3 for 200 to 300 dollars. The Stud and O8 games online are always running at the lower stakes (up to 5/10), and are pretty soft.

Re: Picking up a new game - Stud or Omaha
 

If and when I'm looking to start playing Razz, can I find that live other than at a HORSE table? I wouldn't want to play HORSE because (1) the limits tend to be high, (2) I'd get little time actually playing Razz, and (3) I wouldn't be in a position to play OSE well.

Hi Poshua,

I think its funny that people have referred to you as a he.
AC does not spread razz so they have HOSE, or HOE.

To answer your original querie, try stud. You will enjoy yourself.

Re: Picking up a new game - Stud or Omaha
 

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I think its funny that people have referred to you as a he.

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I am a he.

Re: Picking up a new game - Stud or Omaha
 

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I think its funny that people have referred to you as a he.

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I am a he.

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Whoaaaa...didnt you post about going to ac with your boyfriend a few weeks back??

Re: Picking up a new game - Stud or Omaha
 

AC does not spread razz so they have HOSE, or HOE.

A couple of months back at Foxwoods, I was there when the 5/10 HORSE game got going. We got tthem to agree to do the flop games with a kill and ditch stud hi, so in effect we were playing HORE. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Re: Picking up a new game - Stud or Omaha
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think its funny that people have referred to you as a he.

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I am a he.

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Whoaaaa...didnt you post about going to ac with your boyfriend a few weeks back??

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There are a lot of gay poker players, why is this shocking? Haven't you ever heard of Daniel Negranu (just joking, I couldn't help myself). I know two in NYC who play in the games regularly, one of the guys is very out the other is in the closet. I don't see how sexual preference makes a difference at the table.

Poshua - I think trying to play limit HE first is wise, as long as you dont let it affect your NL game. As previously pointed out its probably best to play online the other games as you get your feet wet because there are always games running 24 hours/day, but finding games like Razz live can be a bit of a challenge.

Re: Picking up a new game - Stud or Omaha
 

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There are a lot of gay poker players, why is this shocking?

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Actually, funny story: I was at the Borg about two months ago and sat at a new 1/2 NL table. The first guy to sit down was wearing a very classy T-shirt that said "He is gay" with an arrow pointing to his left. Players were avoiding sitting to his left.

I thought about sitting next to him because (1) it seemed oddly appropriate and (2) it was the 6 seat, and I prefer the 5/6 seats. However, it felt weird to me to sit where a sign announced that I'm gay, even though I am. So I put my chips down at the 2 seat and went to the bathroom.

I came back and my chips had been moved to... the Gay seat. Apparently someone had already locked up the 2 seat and I hadn't noticed. Or maybe the floor just knew.

I thought about pointing out to the guy that his shirt could be taken to mean "A gay guy has position on me," but I decided against it.

Re: Picking up a new game - Stud or Omaha
 

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I thought about sitting next to him because (1) it seemed oddly appropriate and (2) it was the 6 seat, and I prefer the 5/6 seats.

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Great story, I hope someone got a photo!

Always try to sit on the left of the guy who is the money at the table. Money flows from right to left, having position on the weakest players should be the concern, not the seat number. Hope this little tip helps!

Re: Picking up a new game - Stud or Omaha
 

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Money flows from right to left, having position on the weakest players should be the concern, not the seat number. Hope this little tip helps!

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Oh, I certainly do this when I know which seat that is. However, in a situation where I have no reads (such as a new table) I'd rather sit directly across from the dealer.

Re: Picking up a new game - Stud or Omaha
 

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1. You play in AC & FW. You are in stud central.

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QFT, and remember no razz in AC

Re: Picking up a new game - Stud or Omaha
 

I've been learning stud and I love the game. My new friends, which on average are 50 years older than me, are great.

Harrah's $1-$5 is better than Bally's. No ante and Saturday nights, it's action, if there such a thing in 1-5. There are also about four games a night running. Good for stud players, bad for dealers who get toked in halves.

Don't play the 1-5 at the Taj. It's raked and timed, $1/half hour.

Trop has a 3-6 with no ante. It's a decent low limit, but doesn't run all the time. The $5-10 is OK there as well. I've never played stud at Borgata.

Re: Picking up a new game - Stud or Omaha
 

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Don't play the 1-5 at the Taj. It's ante'd and timed, $1/half hour.


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I did a double take about the $2 an hour drop. Amazing.


When I first started playing poker, everyone played stud hardly anyone played hold em and nobody played no limit hold em.

Fast forward 10 years now nobody plays stud, hardly anyone plays limit hold em and everyone plays no limit.

WOW

Re: Picking up a new game - Stud or Omaha
 

I meant raked and timed by the way. I editted the above post to fix it.

Re: Picking up a new game - Stud or Omaha
 

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Harrah's $1-$5 is better than Bally's. No ante and Saturday nights, it's action, if there such a thing in 1-5.

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This may sound counter-intuitive for a beginning stud player, but if you play well a no-ante game will be the most boring form of poker ever because the pot will often be too small to play on 3rd street. There are some great posts about this in the stud forum (search for ante to bring in ratio, ante to SB ratio, pot size, etc), a fantastic section in Theory of Poker which discusses this, and if your feeling adventurous you can watch the series of videos I made for Razz strategy - the third street concepts about pot size and range of hands are exactly the same (found at Deuces Cracked, PM me for details).

Stud is an easy game when your still new to it, it becomes very mathematical and complicated as you get good - even when playing vs the low limit players, but the positive is the fantastic effect it will have on your hand reading ability and river play.

Re: Picking up a new game - Stud or Omaha
 

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Stud is an easy game when your still new to it, it becomes very mathematical and complicated as you get good - even when playing vs the low limit players, but the positive is the fantastic effect it will have on your hand reading ability and river play.

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After reading the Theory of Poker, I considered which stud game to play. I still enjoy the Harrah's game even without the ante.

I quoted this last part because I've noticed my reads have drastically improved since I started playing stud. I've also read Roy West's low-limit stud book, which I have found to be excellent for the level I'm playing on right now.

I only recently jumped into a $5-$10 stud only to have the older folks cranky at me when I lay down aces-up to a flush or a straight. I still have a ways to go, but I like using the $1-$5 as a playing ground.

The only ante's 1-5 i know of is in Bally's and I dislike the dealers and the floor there so much, I refuse to go back. I had a dealer tell me in another language (one that I understand) to muck a hand cause I was beat in NL game. I'm all for the integrity of the game and I don't appreciate him telling me (though I knew it anyway).

Re: Picking up a new game - Stud or Omaha
 

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. I had a dealer tell me in another language (one that I understand) to muck a hand cause I was beat in NL game.

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Which language?

Foxwoods also has a 50 cent ante for the 1-5 game, it certainlly does help get the game "off the ground".

Re: Picking up a new game - Stud or Omaha
 

albanian

Re: Picking up a new game - Stud or Omaha
 

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. I had a dealer tell me in another language (one that I understand) to muck a hand cause I was beat in NL game.

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Which language?

Foxwoods also has a 50 cent ante for the 1-5 game, it certainlly does help get the game "off the ground".

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If its a .50 ante / .50 bring in, $1 complete then the pot lays 9:1 for anyone to call (yum!), and a completion lays 6:2 to the remaining players left to act (11:1 for the bring in). Thats a serious action game, if you don't play loose then your missing expected value with this structure.... super yummy!

Re: Picking up a new game - Stud or Omaha
 

The 3/6 at Trop goes every day, with a list. It replaced the 1/5 games this spring. Trop management doesn't want to spread more than 3 stud games at a time (two 3/6, one 5/10). The 3/6 has been pretty good, the 5/10 has suffered.

Borgata won't spread a stud game below 20/40 in the new room. I've seen lists, but haven't actually seen a 1/5, 5/10, or 10/20 game there in like two years. I'm not holding my breath either.....