hu killing me
 

i'm on something like a 360 bb downswing HU vs various opponents between 30/60, 50/100 and 100/200.

many players will quit me claiming i am too good or something like that and others i have a history with do not play me. but then every time i do get the chance to play i get my ass kicked, nothing ridiculous like 100+bb losses but just a bunch of 25bb to 50bb defeats.

chances are i just suck right?

Re: hu killing me
 

[ QUOTE ]

chances are i just suck right?


[/ QUOTE ]

yea [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: hu killing me
 

i'd also like to hear some discussion about mid-high hu lhe variance. i thought my hu game was pretty good - i absolutely killed 30/60 and 50/1 for 20k hands but in 2k hands of 1/2 hu i am -200bb.

i guess the psycho aggression leads to absurd short term variance. in my 5 years of playing i have never hemorraged money like this or anything remotely close to this.

Re: hu killing me
 

are you the guy i just played

Re: hu killing me
 

i would so trade your hu luck for my ring game luck.

Re: hu killing me
 

[ QUOTE ]
i would so trade your hu luck for my ring game luck.

[/ QUOTE ]


im def lucky but i mean my W$WSF during my insane upswing is like 49 not anything unreal good like 50+

Re: hu killing me
 

well i am pretty sure -15bb/100 over like 2.5k hands is not sustainable even for the worst players right?

Re: hu killing me
 

[ QUOTE ]
well i am pretty sure -15bb/100 over like 2.5k hands is not sustainable even for the worst players right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sustainable if they play baronzeus.

Re: hu killing me
 

Two guys I saw kill you in past day (Gatordae, rentef?) u def have big big edge on.

How much do you table select? That's a LOT at those limits if you are avoiding a couple of the tougher players.

Re: hu killing me
 

i mean in general i dont think you should be choosing games against good players unless you are a) way overbankrolled or b) really confident that you are better

Re: hu killing me
 

Who are you?

Re: hu killing me
 

[ QUOTE ]
i'm on something like a 360 bb downswing HU vs various opponents between 30/60, 50/100 and 100/200.

many players will quit me claiming i am too good or something like that and others i have a history with do not play me. but then every time i do get the chance to play i get my ass kicked, nothing ridiculous like 100+bb losses but just a bunch of 25bb to 50bb defeats.

chances are i just suck right?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think if you are playing HU to really make money, you shouldn't play anyone that you havn't watched and feel you can beat. I don't always follow this rule but, when I am being objective and don't just feel like playing, I think it's pretty dumb not to. Especially at 30+ stakes.

Re: hu killing me
 

[ QUOTE ]
How much do you table select?

[/ QUOTE ]
well he has like a thousand hands vs the fourth best limit player in the world so i dunno

Re: hu killing me
 

You could always post one of your sessions in the HU forum. I'm sure it would get lots of action.

Re: hu killing me
 

Since I am a fish and you have a big edge on me why dont we play again? This time tho lets end this short term variance and play a freezeout or multi tables. Remember Dean says you have a "big, big" edge on me so lets play and you can win your money back and maybe Ten or Twenty thousend more.

-Crazy Mike

Re: hu killing me
 

[ QUOTE ]
Two guys I saw kill you in past day (Gatordae, rentef?) u def have big big edge on.

How much do you table select? That's a LOT at those limits if you are avoiding a couple of the tougher players.

[/ QUOTE ]

what do you mean by "those limits"?

Re: hu killing me
 

joker I mean that if you avoid a couple of people at those limits you shouldnt be swinging down 360bb imo, whereas if you're playing 200/400 thats a much more viable number ....... unless you table select UBER nitty.

Re: hu killing me
 

oh i see. so you think there's a pretty substantial difference between 1/2 and 2/4 then?

Re: hu killing me
 

[ QUOTE ]
oh i see. so you think there's a pretty substantial difference between 1/2 and 2/4 then?

[/ QUOTE ]


very very substantial

Re: hu killing me
 

Well there is def a difference there but also I think almost all of CDCs play has been at 30 and 50.

Re: hu killing me
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
oh i see. so you think there's a pretty substantial difference between 1/2 and 2/4 then?

[/ QUOTE ]


very very substantial

[/ QUOTE ]

care to elaborate? or is it just the obvious i.e. more aggro and better play all around.

Re: hu killing me
 

This is pretty much why i signed up to 2+2. My HU game is shockingly bad.
I can slog for hours to get into HU position but then donk all my chips due to cowardly apprehension.
My last home game i got to HU, i was 70/30 favourite in chips, villain crawled his way back in chips to 55/45 so then i raised with AK, he shoved and i called. Showed 10 10 and i go busto.
Anyone got tips for HU strategy?

Re: hu killing me
 

I think you get a bunch of mediocre good players who ply most of their trade at at 30 and 50 but also venture into 1/2. None of these guys plays 2/4 so most of the specialists there are actually really good imo.

Re: hu killing me
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is pretty much why i signed up to 2+2. My HU game is shockingly bad.
I can slog for hours to get into HU position but then donk all my chips due to cowardly apprehension.
My last home game i got to HU, i was 70/30 favourite in chips, villain crawled his way back in chips to 55/45 so then i raised with AK, he shoved and i called. Showed 10 10 and i go busto.
Anyone got tips for HU strategy?

[/ QUOTE ]

this is a limit forum

Re: hu killing me
 

__1__, i saw your post before you deleted it and i'd like to respond if you don't mind because i'm interested in your opinion, which i respect.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
oh i see. so you think there's a pretty substantial difference between 1/2 and 2/4 then?

[/ QUOTE ]

Honestly, this means nothing HU. Either you have an edge or your opponent has an edge whether its at 5/10 or 500/1000 (assuming you're properly bankrolled).

Both CDC and joker122 seem like they play pretty well but when you have no game selection and you play opponents that have an edge over you it's a recipe for big swings.

If you lose 360 BB it doesn't mean you suck. It's just pretty likely you're playing too many opponents who have an edge on you.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think i have a game selection problem mainly because imo it's so hard to determine your edge sometimes. most of the time, in fact. this is because at 50/100+ your edge isn't going to be that large against most people, and secondly, it's unavoidable to let the run of cards you or your opponent recieves during the match influence your evaluation of their skill level or your edge against them. that is at least for me, but i'd be dubious if any one claimed they are immune to this.

Re: hu killing me
 

[ QUOTE ]
think i have a game selection problem mainly because imo it's so hard to determine your edge sometimes. most of the time, in fact. this is because at 50/100+ your edge isn't going to be that large against most people, and secondly, it's unavoidable to let the run of cards you or your opponent recieves during the match influence your evaluation of their skill level or your edge against them. that is at least for me, but i'd be dubious if any one claimed they are immune to this.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is fair for the most part. A couple things...

One of the (if not the) most important skills for a HU player is to quickly identify if they have an edge, where they have an edge, how much that edge(s) is worth (qualitatively speaking at least), and leaving the game if you don't have an edge (or enough of one). If you can't identify that edge in 50-100ish hands you should probably quit and look for a better spot.

Obviously, the higher you play the less average edge you're going to have vs. a given opponent. With that said, I'll almost guarantee you you're using "the run of the cards" way too liberally as an excuse. You've probably played enough HU where you can almost involuntarily check off a mental list of spots where various opponents are exploitable. If you can't find anything/enough inside a certain number of hands just quit. Sure your opponent might be getting hit with the deck but if you can't identify anything exploitable your opponent is doing it's almost definitely not worth the time or variance.

Not to put you on the spot but let me ask you a couple almost rhetorical questions. When you were playing Reztes the other day...What was your edge? How many hands did it take you to identify that edge? Was that edge good enough where it wouldn't be better waiting 5 min, 10 min. or an hour for someone worse?

Finally, while some people might say the 30, 50, and 100 regulars are mediocre players, nitty, or whatever else the fact is that they have great game selection, they have the discipline to quit quickly if they are in a bad spot, and they don't let their egos get in the way.

There are probably better players out there (or those with the potential to be better) but they aren't nearly as successful b/c their lack of discipline keeps getting in the way.

This is what I've observed anyway...

Re: hu killing me
 

Joker you seem to have zero or very little game selection. I havent played a great deal with you so have no idea exactly how good you are, but it should be obvious after a short while that a bunch of the guys you are playing have a pretty good clue how to play poker and that your edge over them is at most small.

Re: hu killing me
 

It's all a matter of preference btw. If you want to play good players to improve your game, or if you philosophically believe you should take every edge you can get, then fine. But this will lead to the huge swings you've recently faced.

Re: hu killing me
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's all a matter of preference btw. If you want to play good players to improve your game, or if you philosophically believe you should take every edge you can get, then fine. But this will lead to the huge swings you've recently faced.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is how i game select: i don't play the 5 or so names you see everyday at 50/1 and 1/2 - either bc they wont play me (pokergirlz for ex.) or i think they are better than me (fatal frog for ex.). other than that, i will play any unknown, under the assumption that a non-regular will often be a soft spot, and thus it is +ev to at least try them even though i will sometimes get into bad spots edge-wise. if i'm lucky enough to not get hit and run and can play one of these unknowns for more than 5 minutes i will make a note about my first general impression, which will help me determine if i should play them later.

dean, or anyone else, what do you do? do you simply avoid anyone you know nothing about? the action at these limits is so scarce as it is that i can't imagine approaching game selection that way.

Re: hu killing me
 

[ QUOTE ]
Joker you seem to have zero or very little game selection. I havent played a great deal with you so have no idea exactly how good you are, but it should be obvious after a short while that a bunch of the guys you are playing have a pretty good clue how to play poker and that your edge over them is at most small.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just want to point out that in raked games you have to have a substantial skill edge to have a positive earn expectation. I see tons of HU matches on FT where it's pretty clear both players are just pissing their money away to rake. You see it all the time in ring games too. At 30/60 the rake is like 7.5 bb/100 hands? Which means your average edge over your opponents has to be over 1bb/100 hands. There are lots of games where this isn't the case for anyone, and there are lots of 'good' players who play them regardless.

Re: hu killing me
 

"At 30/60 the rake is like 7.5 bb/100 hands? "

you of course mean .75bb?

Re: hu killing me
 

"Not to put you on the spot but let me ask you a couple almost rhetorical questions. When you were playing Reztes the other day...What was your edge? How many hands did it take you to identify that edge? Was that edge good enough where it wouldn't be better waiting 5 min, 10 min. or an hour for someone worse?
"

are you asking CDC or myself this question?

Re: hu killing me
 

[ QUOTE ]

"At 30/60 the rake is like 7.5 bb/100 hands? "

you of course mean .75bb?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I meant 7.5 bb/100 for the whole table, but it's actually more like 5. So yes, around .75-.8 bb/100 per person. [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

Re: hu killing me
 

[ QUOTE ]
are you asking CDC or myself this question?

[/ QUOTE ]

I was asking you. Just making the round-about point that he's a tough spot who everyone knows and I was surprised to see you playing him...at least for as long as you did. I mean there's something to be said for trying out the regulars to see if they're worth playing. But once you see they're good...

Re: hu killing me
 

__1__ I think your advice in this whole thread is awesome. To put some drastic numbers to what you are saying, I believe I have a 5 bb/100 or greater edge on the megafish I often play at 5/10, that's $50 per 100 hands. There are plenty of 30/60 regulars who I feel I can probably beat, but not for a lot more than 1 bb/100. So which way is best for moneymaking if I can make the same per hour at 5/10 with practically no variance, that's +sanityEV.

-DeathDonkey

Re: hu killing me
 

Will someone just 4 table me 30/60+ higher HU?

-Crazy Mike

Re: hu killing me
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
are you asking CDC or myself this question?

[/ QUOTE ]

I was asking you. Just making the round-about point that he's a tough spot who everyone knows and I was surprised to see you playing him...at least for as long as you did. I mean there's something to be said for trying out the regulars to see if they're worth playing. But once you see they're good...

[/ QUOTE ]

yea imo he played some of the early hands poorly. that combined with the fact that he started running like god and i wanted to get even was why i played him for so long.

Re: hu killing me
 

[ QUOTE ]
__1__ I think your advice in this whole thread is awesome. To put some drastic numbers to what you are saying, I believe I have a 5 bb/100 or greater edge on the megafish I often play at 5/10, that's $50 per 100 hands. There are plenty of 30/60 regulars who I feel I can probably beat, but not for a lot more than 1 bb/100. So which way is best for moneymaking if I can make the same per hour at 5/10 with practically no variance, that's +sanityEV.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

too true, but i always like pushing myself to get better and eventually be able to beat the toughest opponents. the main reason i play hu is obv for money, but it has a unique competition element that really drives me.

Re: hu killing me
 

[ QUOTE ]
too true, but i always like pushing myself to get better and eventually be able to beat the toughest opponents. the main reason i play hu is obv for money, but it has a unique competition element that really drives me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Amen.

Re: hu killing me
 

[ QUOTE ]
__1__ I think your advice in this whole thread is awesome. To put some drastic numbers to what you are saying, I believe I have a 5 bb/100 or greater edge on the megafish I often play at 5/10, that's $50 per 100 hands. There are plenty of 30/60 regulars who I feel I can probably beat, but not for a lot more than 1 bb/100. So which way is best for moneymaking if I can make the same per hour at 5/10 with practically no variance, that's +sanityEV.


[/ QUOTE ]

+sanityEV. I love it! It's pretty remarkable how much sanityEV takes priority over most everything else in poker these days for me.