how to convince potential players of a fundamental rule?
 

Hi there, [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

I'm planning on playing poker (NLH) with some new guys & gals I recently met. Unfortunately, these guys & gals each apply individual rulings to the game. For example, they are not used to play with this rule:
A bet or raise must be at least the size of the big blind, or at least the size of the previous bet or raise in that round.
They told me: "You can raise to any amount you please (that means, if the BB was $10, one may raise to just $15).

Here is were the issue comes in:
- I want to play the game the way it is written down in RRoP, because I think that it's the most common and best way to play it (which would include the rule mentioned above).
I told them about my concerns and they asked me why this rule (raise at least BB/previous bet/raise) existed. They are probably of the opinion that this rule limits your strategical possibillities (because you are forced to bet a minimum amount that might not please your strategy).
Well, I stated that this rule prevented players from making annoying minimum raises (like, raising a BB of $10 to $12) that are just time consuming and that do not have significant impact on odds, and the like. Well, it appeared to me that this didn't really convinced them (maybe because they never heard of "odds, and the like").

So, thing is, I want to play with these guys & gals because I haven't been playing for some time, so I would sooner or later give in and accept this rule to be ignored if it turned out that I was not able to convice them, BUT: I am still trying to convince them and I was wondering if there are some more arguments that I could point out, that this rule in-hand makes sense and is worth being applied.

Long story, sorry if that bored you.

Thanx in advance. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

KampfHase

Re: how to convince potential players of a fundamental rule?
 

You could point out that by playing non-common and perhaps stupid rules, it will hurt their game when they have to play in a scenario where the more common rules apply. Strategies depend a lot on the rules so they would be developing wrong and perhaps even harmful strategies which would eventually cost them dearly in a proper poker setting.

If none of that works, then just come up with at least a set of rules that don't change and exploit them to the best or your ability.

Re: how to convince potential players of a fundamental rule?
 

Continue to raise their bets by $1 or something ridiculously annoying until they comprehend why that rule is in place.

Re: how to convince potential players of a fundamental rule?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Continue to raise their bets by $1 or something ridiculously annoying until they comprehend why that rule is in place.

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I second this suggestion.

Also, are you playing to have fun or try to make money? If it's the latter this might be the group for you as they seemingly have no clue about "proper" poker and therefore I doubt they have put much thought into good strategy. Look at it this way if you make a $10 bluff for example most players sensing weakness would raise you to about $30 or so. This group might just make it $12 therefore only costing you $2 to try to catch a miracle card.

Just my two cents

Re: how to convince potential players of a fundamental rule?
 

Hey there,

thanks guys for your thoughts; helped a lot. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: how to convince potential players of a fundamental rule?
 

My main argument would be the fact that its how it works when you play in a casino.

Re: how to convince potential players of a fundamental rule?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hi there, [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

I'm planning on playing poker (NLH) with some new guys & gals I recently met. Unfortunately, these guys & gals each apply individual rulings to the game. For example, they are not used to play with this rule:
A bet or raise must be at least the size of the big blind, or at least the size of the previous bet or raise in that round.
They told me: "You can raise to any amount you please (that means, if the BB was $10, one may raise to just $15).

Here is were the issue comes in:
- I want to play the game the way it is written down in RRoP, because I think that it's the most common and best way to play it (which would include the rule mentioned above).
I told them about my concerns and they asked me why this rule (raise at least BB/previous bet/raise) existed. They are probably of the opinion that this rule limits your strategical possibillities (because you are forced to bet a minimum amount that might not please your strategy).
Well, I stated that this rule prevented players from making annoying minimum raises (like, raising a BB of $10 to $12) that are just time consuming and that do not have significant impact on odds, and the like. Well, it appeared to me that this didn't really convinced them (maybe because they never heard of "odds, and the like").

So, thing is, I want to play with these guys & gals because I haven't been playing for some time, so I would sooner or later give in and accept this rule to be ignored if it turned out that I was not able to convice them, BUT: I am still trying to convince them and I was wondering if there are some more arguments that I could point out, that this rule in-hand makes sense and is worth being applied.

Long story, sorry if that bored you.

Thanx in advance. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

KampfHase

[/ QUOTE ]

When in Rome, do as the Romans do!

Also, any additional option available to the players (here, the ability to bet any amount without restriction), must have the effect of enhancing strategic possibilities. This will work in favor of the better players - you need to figure out how to use it to your advantage.

One more thing - this rule is not an uncommon variation in home games. People think "no limit", and translate that to "any amount anytime, right"? So it's not a bad structure to familiarize yourself with.

I occasionally play with a group that uses this rule. One idea is to min-raise with a monster to ensure that the betting is reopened with overly aggressive players present. Another play is to do that on a draw, where some of the others are wary of the first move. It's also a tell against one individual in particular who always uses the first move. In games with per-round raise limits, you can also take the last min-raise to protect your draw. These are simple ideas, but I bet they will work with this group.

Keep your eyes open, think about it, and exploit it. Remember to enjoy it, and viva la difference!

Re: how to convince potential players of a fundamental rule?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Continue to raise their bets by $1 or something ridiculously annoying until they comprehend why that rule is in place.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree in the sense that they only way that you are going to get them to go by the rule is if they understand why the rule is in place.

When I first started playing in a local home game I ran into the same problem.. Someone would bet $5, someone call the $5, then someone would make it $8. I pointed out that they couldn't do that and was met with responses like, "This isn't Vegas", etc.

After chatting with the host and some of the other players (who were mostly friends) about it they started to understand why the rule was in place.

Now the rule is always enforced ... even by some of those that were naysayers initially!

Re: how to convince potential players of a fundamental rule?
 

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After chatting with the host and some of the other players (who were mostly friends) about it they started to understand why the rule was in place.

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And why do you think the rule is in place?

Re: how to convince potential players of a fundamental rule?
 

I think it's in place simply to prevent teamwork at the poker table, and to keep the integrity of the stakes alive. The "less then minraise" is also a great way to catapult another player into a big reraise, and it's an annoying way to find out information from your counterparts. Ie, if they bet ten, make it 11 and see if they reraise you with the nuts.

Re: how to convince potential players of a fundamental rule?
 

At Harrah's AC, a tourney table tried to botch it. Blinds of 300/600, player says raise and thows out a 1000 and next player calls. I say "It has to be 1200." First they fix it, then say "No, we can go to 900 because the big blind is a raise of 300 on the small blind." They convince the dealer! I'd already folded UTG (so I don't know if this makes me a dick), but when the dealer asked if I wanted to call the floor to confirm, I said yes, and the floor said it had to be 1200. Then other side of the table, they thought the next raise had to double it again to 2400.

Re: how to convince potential players of a fundamental rule?
 

[ QUOTE ]
At Harrah's AC, a tourney table tried to botch it. Blinds of 300/600, player says raise and thows out a 1000 and next player calls. I say "It has to be 1200." First they fix it, then say "No, we can go to 900 because the big blind is a raise of 300 on the small blind." They convince the dealer! I'd already folded UTG (so I don't know if this makes me a dick), but when the dealer asked if I wanted to call the floor to confirm, I said yes, and the floor said it had to be 1200. Then other side of the table, they thought the next raise had to double it again to 2400.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice- they went 0-2 on that other side.

Re: how to convince potential players of a fundamental rule?
 

You seem to have forgotten the rule that trumps all others:

Rule Zero - When playing in someone else's game, play by their rules.

Why not get a big flashing neon sign on your forehead that says: "Hello, I take this game more seriously than you do. I will be less fun to play with and more likely to take your money." Well, okay, that might take up too much space, so how about a scrolling LED marquee?

Basically, who cares. Poker is a game of information, and you have this opportunity to find out a whole lot of information for cheaper than you're used to. These people all know each other. They know on some instinctual level at the very least what certain less-than-min raises mean from certain people. Watch how they react to these. Adjust. Profit.

Me, I like to keep people in their comfort zones. If they're jarred out of them, they pay attention more and play better.

Now, if you end up joining this game as a regular, then you can occasionally find a good spot here and there to mention the rules on raising. But again, remember that Robert's is simply that: Robert's. It's not on stone tablets or anything.

Re: how to convince potential players of a fundamental rule?
 

Hi guys & gals [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Frommagio:
[ QUOTE ]
When in Rome, do as the Romans do! [...] Keep your eyes open, think about it, and exploit it. Remember to enjoy it, and viva la difference!

[/ QUOTE ]
This didn't cross my mind. (I still have much to learn. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]) Thanx for this advice!

pfapfap:
[ QUOTE ]
Why not get a big flashing neon sign on your forehead that says: "Hello, I take this game more seriously than you do. I will be less fun to play with and more likely to take your money."

[/ QUOTE ]
You're absolutely right.

[ QUOTE ]
Poker is a game of information, and you have this opportunity to find out a whole lot of information for cheaper than you're used to.

[/ QUOTE ]
True. This goes along with what frommagio suggested.

I thought about this whole thing the way a referee would do, and not the way a businessman/poker player would.

Thanks to all you guys who replied. It's always worth consulting the forums - they always provide different point of views; refreshing, instructive, and informative.

Thanx again. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: how to convince potential players of a fundamental rule?
 

If they don't understand odds, etc, just make sure you fully understand their rules, and beat them in that context. shouldn't be too hard.

Re: how to convince potential players of a fundamental rule?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Continue to raise their bets by $1 or something ridiculously annoying until they comprehend why that rule is in place.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem with allowing less than min raises to stand is not that they are annoying, but that they re-open the betting. For example, 3 players see the flop, first player bets moderate amount, second player raises by $1 - the third player is squeezed out by the second players $1 raise because he now faces a re-raise if he calls, and second player only had to risk the extra $1 to make this play. Of course, if you are playing with a bunch of donkeys you can probably take advantage of this more than they will.

Re: how to convince potential players of a fundamental rule?
 

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The problem with allowing less than min raises to stand is not that they are annoying, but that they re-open the betting.

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You say "problem"; I say "opportunity to sit to the right of the most aggressive player in order to push against his wide range re-raises when this happens". Potato, potahto, I suppose. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Really, anything a donk does helps your edge once you figure out how to exploit it. I hope you're encouraging straddles, too.

Re: how to convince potential players of a fundamental rule?
 

If they are that knowledgeable about poker, you should be taking all their money!

Re: how to convince potential players of a fundamental rule?
 

One of my home games has this rule. 30% of the players are decent and have an understanding of the fundamentals of the game. The other 70% are either newbies or believe that luck is really what allows them to win. At first I was always annoyed by anyone raising $1 into a $10 bet. However as time went on and I got a little better I realized that in reality these players are only hurting themselves. The good players at this game never(*) do this, because they know it really only hurts their long term EV. Granted sometimes it reopens the betting, but in reality for those 70% it does not matter.

(*) A few exceptions I have noticed
(1) When I have a MONSTER, I can "donk" around with these little "less than min raise bets", and get folks calling me or reraising my "less than min raise bets", when they would fold to a "real" bet or raise. Its a big laugh when someone does it, and almost no one folds!!!!
(2) I pay attention when one of those "good 30%" folks make one of the "less than min raise bets", and drop my hand fast. See (1).

Someone said something like "when in Rome ...." Hell yea. These folks are gong to drop their money to you. However you must play your "A" "ABC" game, because the variance will be high.

Re: how to convince potential players of a fundamental rule?
 

I don't agree with those who are saying that the op should appreciate the donkness of these players. It'll mess up your game playing with these donks who will crack your aces one too many times with crap crap OS. You'll start pushing with mid pair, and it will transfer over to the "real" games.
Just tell 'em it's your house and house rules. If that isn't enough, tell 'em you want to play the right way. Print a few copies of Robert's Rules and give 'em to people to take home and read. As they, your group, play more and see more on TV, they will step their levels up. You may hear some gripes in the beginning, but later will appreciate the consistencies of following the rules.

Re: how to convince potential players of a fundamental rule?
 

I want to hear more examples of what they think are flexible rules. That can't be it, can it?

Re: how to convince potential players of a fundamental rule?
 

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I want to hear more examples of what they think are flexible rules.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sometimes a flush beats a straight, sometimes it doesn't. It depends on what I have; that's pretty flexible.

Re: how to convince potential players of a fundamental rule?
 

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It'll mess up your game playing with these donks who will crack your aces one too many times with crap crap OS. You'll start pushing with mid pair, and it will transfer over to the "real" games.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't follow. How can one game affect another? I play differently within the same session, and I definitely have different overall approaches for different games or for table compositions within in the same game.

Me, I want my opponents to make a whole lot of mistakes, and a tiny little raise is a huge mistake. I don't tolerate it at my games (mainly to protect others), but I don't have a problem with it at all if I'm in someone else's game. Especially not within a small group of regulars.

[ QUOTE ]
Just tell 'em it's your house and house rules.

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If it were his house, I'd say yes, enforce that rule. But it's not, he's joining another group of people he just met, and for him to push this issue is highly -EV, up to the point of him not being able to play in that game and not making new friends if he's nitty enough about it.

Re: how to convince potential players of a fundamental rule?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't agree with those who are saying that the op should appreciate the donkness of these players. It'll mess up your game playing with these donks who will crack your aces one too many times with crap crap OS.


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I disagree. I do not think it messes up my game, since I understand why their play is a mistake, and I do my best to capitalize on that mistake. I have gotten better at laying down pocket aces. Especially if I could not isolate PF. I make sure to almost always raise PF with hands I want to play. They may crack my aces, but they will pay to do so. In the end I win (and even congratulate them on cracking my aces)

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You'll start pushing with mid pair, and it will transfer over to the "real" games.


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Ummm. No I won't.

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Just tell 'em it's your house and house rules. If that isn't enough, tell 'em you want to play the right way. Print a few copies of Robert's Rules and give 'em to people to take home and read. As they, your group, play more and see more on TV, they will step their levels up. You may hear some gripes in the beginning, but later will appreciate the consistencies of following the rules.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, its not my game. And I have found that in games with people like this, trying to force them to understand the "correct" way to play, only makes them annoyed and then they start wondering if all I care about it winning all their money. Well, at the table that is all I care about:) But I certainly don't act like it.

Re: how to convince potential players of a fundamental rule?
 

[ QUOTE ]
It'll mess up your game playing with these donks who will crack your aces one too many times with crap crap OS. You'll start pushing with mid pair, and it will transfer over to the "real" games.

[/ QUOTE ]

We call this "tilt". Welcome to poker.


ps. You're wrong.