Anyone successful at 10nl? (Help needed)
 

If so, how the hell do you do it?

I just sit there and shake my head at how bad some of the plays are. I just can't figure out why I can't make money at it. Play super tight and raise the premium hands to a stupid amount and get called? Advice for 10NL playing styles would be appreciated.

http://www.infocusphotography.net/host/graph2.jpg

I suppose the best thing to do would be what I did for the first half of hands and not so much what I did for the second half.

Any comments on helping me spot what my leaks are would be appreciated as well.

Re: Anyone successful at 10nl? (Help needed)
 

never bluff, wait for premium hands, and then bet large.

Re: Anyone successful at 10nl? (Help needed)
 

I hope you also would like to play poker with which you can move up, so please don't wait only for premium hands. If there are one or two loose limpers I raise it up from the CO of the button with any half decent hand, beware of tightpassives though they might sit on a big hand. Call behind limpers with your speculative hands (suited connectors, suited aces small pocketpairs), open with all pocketpairs from MP2; on the button and CO call with the bigger offsuit connectors after some limpers. Remember position is the nuts especially in NL10, exploit your opponents playingstyle to the max. Oh yeah BT2 is right about one thing don't bluff on the turn or river unless you know for sure a player can lay down toppair.

Re: Anyone successful at 10nl? (Help needed)
 

take a screen shot your stats and post them up aswell.

Re: Anyone successful at 10nl? (Help needed)
 

Post your PF limp and raise guidelines
eg.

EP:
limp 22-66
raise 77-AA, AK, AQ
.
etc.....

Re: Anyone successful at 10nl? (Help needed)
 

Thanks for the help so far, here are the stats if anyone is kind enough to look over them.

http://www.infocusphotography.net/host/10nlstats.jpg

Re: Anyone successful at 10nl? (Help needed)
 

Nothing jumps out at me as being bad. It could just be a bad run or just bad mistakes/tilt. The first downswing you dropped 4 BI's in 500 hands.

You seem to run hot, then cold and repeat. I'd wait till about 15-20k hands before i'd start worrying.

Re: Anyone successful at 10nl? (Help needed)
 

Looks like my august graph.

Re: Anyone successful at 10nl? (Help needed)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I hope you also would like to play poker with which you can move up, so please don't wait only for premium hands. If there are one or two loose limpers I raise it up from the CO of the button with any half decent hand, beware of tightpassives though they might sit on a big hand. Call behind limpers with your speculative hands (suited connectors, suited aces small pocketpairs), open with all pocketpairs from MP2; on the button and CO call with the bigger offsuit connectors after some limpers. Remember position is the nuts especially in NL10, exploit your opponents playingstyle to the max. Oh yeah BT2 is right about one thing don't bluff on the turn or river unless you know for sure a player can lay down toppair.

[/ QUOTE ]
ding, ding, ding!

I started playing NL maybe 5 months ago (after 3 years of nothing but O8). I've been beating NL10 over somewhere near 15k-ish hands doing basically what you see in Larude's post.


I'll post graph & stats for comparison when I get home. I think I'm around 12bb/100.

Re: Anyone successful at 10nl? (Help needed)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I hope you also would like to play poker with which you can move up, so please don't wait only for premium hands. If there are one or two loose limpers I raise it up from the CO of the button with any half decent hand, beware of tightpassives though they might sit on a big hand. Call behind limpers with your speculative hands (suited connectors, suited aces small pocketpairs), open with all pocketpairs from MP2; on the button and CO call with the bigger offsuit connectors after some limpers. Remember position is the nuts especially in NL10, exploit your opponents playingstyle to the max. Oh yeah BT2 is right about one thing don't bluff on the turn or river unless you know for sure a player can lay down toppair.

[/ QUOTE ]
ding, ding, ding!

I started playing NL maybe 5 months ago (after 3 years of nothing but O8). I've been beating NL10 over somewhere near 15k-ish hands doing basically what you see in Larude's post.


I'll post graph & stats for comparison when I get home. I think I'm around 12bb/100.

[/ QUOTE ]

How big a pocket pair do you need in MP2 to raise with? And, how big of a SC do you feel is worth limping in with behind other limpers? I think I'm probably a little too tight in those situations.

Re: Anyone successful at 10nl? (Help needed)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I hope you also would like to play poker with which you can move up, so please don't wait only for premium hands. If there are one or two loose limpers I raise it up from the CO of the button with any half decent hand, beware of tightpassives though they might sit on a big hand. Call behind limpers with your speculative hands (suited connectors, suited aces small pocketpairs), open with all pocketpairs from MP2; on the button and CO call with the bigger offsuit connectors after some limpers. Remember position is the nuts especially in NL10, exploit your opponents playingstyle to the max. Oh yeah BT2 is right about one thing don't bluff on the turn or river unless you know for sure a player can lay down toppair.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is good advice. I would also add, don't even semi-bluff raise your strong draws vs opponents who have just bet into you - They have hit the board and at these levels, they aren't going anywhere ! Just call if you're getting the odds to draw or close to the odds, because when you hit, they'll be paying you off (implied odds)...

GL

Re: Anyone successful at 10nl? (Help needed)
 

I think I know what is wrong about your play, you probably can't lay down a good or mediocre hand to a better holding or you don't force opponents out when they are drawing; I namely don't know what the 'normal' stats should be for WTSD but 21,05 is quite high and mucher higher than mine.

Re: Anyone successful at 10nl? (Help needed)
 

Hey,
you need to go review all the hands that were big losses and ask yourself what was wrong. If the money went in while you were ahead and knew you were ahead, don´t second guess yourself. If not, post the questionable hands here in the forum.

In case there is nothing wrong with your playing the big pots, watch out for a pattern of repeated medium losses.

[ QUOTE ]
I think I know what is wrong about your play, you probably can't lay down a good or mediocre hand to a better holding

[/ QUOTE ]

This may very well be the reason. On the other side, it is equally possible to make bad folds that look like good folds, i.e. you mistakenly assume your opponent is a thinking person and give him too much respect. It happens all the time at the micro limits.

Re: Anyone successful at 10nl? (Help needed)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I hope you also would like to play poker with which you can move up, so please don't wait only for premium hands. If there are one or two loose limpers I raise it up from the CO of the button with any half decent hand, beware of tightpassives though they might sit on a big hand. Call behind limpers with your speculative hands (suited connectors, suited aces small pocketpairs), open with all pocketpairs from MP2; on the button and CO call with the bigger offsuit connectors after some limpers. Remember position is the nuts especially in NL10, exploit your opponents playingstyle to the max. Oh yeah BT2 is right about one thing don't bluff on the turn or river unless you know for sure a player can lay down toppair.

[/ QUOTE ]
ding, ding, ding!

I started playing NL maybe 5 months ago (after 3 years of nothing but O8). I've been beating NL10 over somewhere near 15k-ish hands doing basically what you see in Larude's post.


I'll post graph & stats for comparison when I get home. I think I'm around 12bb/100.

[/ QUOTE ]

How big a pocket pair do you need in MP2 to raise with? And, how big of a SC do you feel is worth limping in with behind other limpers? I think I'm probably a little too tight in those situations.

[/ QUOTE ]
It really depends on a whole lot of variables.
Loose or tight table, your image, reads on utg limpers and those yet to act, etc...
I'm pretty aggressive, so it wouldn't take much for me to open raise in mp with nothing but tighties behind me, but throw a 35/22 into the CO and I'll be more careful. OTOH, if a sub 10 vpip player limps UTG, my radar goes off & I'll only limp if a few others came alomg. Certainly won't go past the flop without a monster...

It kinda sucks to hear it all the time, but 'it depends' is really the best answer. Pay attention to stats and tendancies.
And, of course, don't be dumb. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: Anyone successful at 10nl? (Help needed)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think I know what is wrong about your play, you probably can't lay down a good or mediocre hand to a better holding or you don't force opponents out when they are drawing; I namely don't know what the 'normal' stats should be for WTSD but 21,05 is quite high and mucher higher than mine.

[/ QUOTE ]

20-25% is normal range for wtsd% I think.

Re: Anyone successful at 10nl? (Help needed)
 

I also play 10NL, and am currently beating the game. I also run around 16/8, although my post-flop aggression is a little higher than yours.

Just keep an eye on position. Being OOP sucks so much that is just can't be overstated.

And watch your opponent's stack sizes. Only get involved with speculative hands (small pairs, SCs, suited aces) when your opponent has a big stack so you can win a lot when you hit.

Then just keep at it. I moved up to 10NL the end of June, and July was my best month ever. August, however, is only break even so far.

Re: Anyone successful at 10nl? (Help needed)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think I know what is wrong about your play, you probably can't lay down a good or mediocre hand to a better holding or you don't force opponents out when they are drawing; I namely don't know what the 'normal' stats should be for WTSD but 21,05 is quite high and mucher higher than mine.

[/ QUOTE ]

20-25% is normal range for wtsd% I think.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow this is interesting I'm only at 11% running 14BB/100 over 10000 hands. Is this a leak in my game then? Am I a superlucky weak nit? I'd like to hear some opinions from higher stakes players now....

Re: Anyone successful at 10nl? (Help needed)
 

[ QUOTE ]
20-25% is normal range for wtsd% I think.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is correct. Somewhere in the stickied posts there was a link to poker tracker stats or something like that. It suggested 21% was the median from all the data gathered. I am guessing at microlimits that percentage would be a little higher as many go to far with their hands. The opposite is probably true for the highest limits.

Re: Anyone successful at 10nl? (Help needed)
 

I don't have PT to show numbers, but at the various sites where I played micro NLH (~10k hands) I see a pattern that I grow my bankroll with winning a lot of small pots playing solid TAG and then having a downswing to just above breakeven because eg. I have KK and lose preflop allin against my neighbour's AA.

My bankroll is growing very, very slowly with this pattern.

I also rarely win big pots and therefore I rarely double or tripple my buyin although I see alot of other players doing this which frustrates me a bit because I wanne be such a guy on multiple tables.

I have been playing 10NL @ Stars for little less than a week now and the same pattern has occurred again after some 1800 hands. Growing slowly from $50 to $63 then back to $51 (AA cracked preflop by JJ). Growing it back to $61 and now down to $50 (Raised KK preflop allin against neighbour's AA).

I've been thinking about all this and I think it's because I play too less speculative hands (small pairs, SCs, suited aces). Limping these into multiway pots or calling a raise which if you hit hard will be big, big winners.

I'll see if this helps me.

Re: Anyone successful at 10nl? (Help needed)
 

[ QUOTE ]

I also rarely win big pots and therefore I rarely double or tripple my buyin although I see alot of other players doing this which frustrates me a bit because I wanne be such a guy on multiple tables.

[/ QUOTE ]

See it like this: 20 maniacs go all-in every hand. 10 minutes later, you meet 5 maniacs and all of them have gigantic stacks. Now you may think, "wow, all these super-loose people take down the money."
But that is not true.
15 went home broke, and chances are you didn´t notice those.

[ QUOTE ]
I have been playing 10NL @ Stars for little less than a week now and the same pattern has occurred again after some 1800 hands. Growing slowly from $50 to $63 then back to $51 (AA cracked preflop by JJ). Growing it back to $61 and now down to $50 (Raised KK preflop allin against neighbour's AA).

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not sure if I understand you. Are you really talking about 1800 hands and a "downswing" of 1 buy-in??
I hope I may say that, you need to learn a lot then.
You need a LOT more hands and you need not complain before like beeing 10 buy-ins down.

[ QUOTE ]
I've been thinking about all this

[/ QUOTE ]
Don´t. Simply don´t.

Re: Anyone successful at 10nl? (Help needed)
 

you're playing 10 nl with 50$?

Re: Anyone successful at 10nl? (Help needed)
 

some things:
your wtsd and w$sd indicate that you are winning small pots and losing big ones. Look specifically at your money won/lost with one pair. If I had to guess, you are probably putting way too much money in here. Don't get so attached to one pair, even if it is KK. At these levels, you can be very successful just by taking the pots no one else wants. If someone indicates an interest in a pot, its okay to let a good but not great hand go. Even if it actually is the best hand. Don't make hero calls, don't bluff beyond c-betting, be more aggressive and steal more often. Raise limpers in position! These things have been said forever, because they actually work.
Also, know that your sample size is very small, one or two days worth of poker for many players.
GL

Re: Anyone successful at 10nl? (Help needed)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I also rarely win big pots and therefore I rarely double or tripple my buyin although I see alot of other players doing this which frustrates me a bit because I wanne be such a guy on multiple tables.

[/ QUOTE ]

See it like this: 20 maniacs go all-in every hand. 10 minutes later, you meet 5 maniacs and all of them have gigantic stacks. Now you may think, "wow, all these super-loose people take down the money."
But that is not true.
15 went home broke, and chances are you didn´t notice those.

[ QUOTE ]
I have been playing 10NL @ Stars for little less than a week now and the same pattern has occurred again after some 1800 hands. Growing slowly from $50 to $63 then back to $51 (AA cracked preflop by JJ). Growing it back to $61 and now down to $50 (Raised KK preflop allin against neighbour's AA).

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not sure if I understand you. Are you really talking about 1800 hands and a "downswing" of 1 buy-in??
I hope I may say that, you need to learn a lot then.
You need a LOT more hands and you need not complain before like beeing 10 buy-ins down.

[ QUOTE ]
I've been thinking about all this

[/ QUOTE ]
Don´t. Simply don´t.

[/ QUOTE ]

But there are also "regulars", not maniacs who I often see with double buyins on various sites multiple days in the week. I want to know how they play. Which handrange they have raising, limping with, calling after a raise. Are their reads so much better?

I have been playing on other sites before I checked out Stars. Mostly one-tabling NL20 with a bankroll of about 20 buyins before checking out Stars. Over 10K hands the pattern I described kept reocurring over and over, winning a lot of small pots but rarely winning big pots and losing a couple of big pots which resulted in a very slow grow of my bankroll. I'm estimating to have played 10K hands now.
How many hands do you think someone needs to play before he has a good view of his winnings?

You may say, I need to learn a lot. No problem, that's why I joined 2+2 [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Anyone successful at 10nl? (Help needed)
 

[ QUOTE ]


But there are also "regulars", not maniacs who I often see with double buyins on various sites multiple days in the week. I want to know how they play. Which handrange they have raising, limping with, calling after a raise. Are their reads so much better?

I have been playing on other sites before I checked out Stars. Mostly one-tabling NL20 with a bankroll of about 20 buyins before checking out Stars. Over 10K hands the pattern I described kept reocurring over and over, winning a lot of small pots but rarely winning big pots and losing a couple of big pots which resulted in a very slow grow of my bankroll. I'm estimating to have played 10K hands now.
How many hands do you think someone needs to play before he has a good view of his winnings?

You may say, I need to learn a lot. No problem, that's why I joined 2+2 [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]


If you have PT post your stats, if not get PT.

I have two databases split at NL 10.

In DB 1 i have 2.8k hands(mainly Ipoker network and betfair) and i am up $35 with BB/100 hand at 6.30.

In DB 2(just party) i have 2.1K hands and am up $31 with BB/100 hands at 7.24, if i cut down on attempting to pull some seriously stupid stunts i would be up alot more aswell.

The only different between my stats is My VPIP is over 20 is both DB and my Pf-R is 8% in DB1 and 11% in DB 2. MY AF is much lower, in DB it's 0.72, 1.28 in DB 2.

One thing i will say, if any of you are European i would get the [censored] of Stars straight away.

Re: Anyone successful at 10nl? (Help needed)
 

http://img358.imageshack.us/img358/4...0070816eb5.jpg

Re: Anyone successful at 10nl? (Help needed)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think I know what is wrong about your play, you probably can't lay down a good or mediocre hand to a better holding or you don't force opponents out when they are drawing; I namely don't know what the 'normal' stats should be for WTSD but 21,05 is quite high and mucher higher than mine.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nicely stated and your post describes my losses to a tee at the 10NL games. After a ton of play, I donked off my winnings in a number of AI's which I allowed my ego to take part in.

With 5,000+ hands, I'm currently 16.82/7.85/3.52 and descended to a 3.18PTBB/100 win rate. My WtSD is 21.27% and W$@SD is 54.11%.

A series of overpairs to the board and a number of SERIOUS *misreads*, er, donkiness of your description, cost me tremendously. I'm moving to 5NL until I can stop the madness and profuse bleeding.

nh, sir.

Re: Anyone successful at 10nl? (Help needed)
 

Over 4k hands my ptbb is 11.25/100 at NL10. I started at $0.02 the lowest game on PS 2-3 weeks ago and have slowly grinded my way up to NL10. Another 2-3 weeks I should have the br for NL25. Start at the BOTTOM and work your way up. I built the foundation of my game at the lowest limits - apart from two or three minor tweaks I am playing essentially the same game.

When I started at $0.02 I wondered whether the games were beatable, whether I had missed the boat and the games had become too rocky. I even made a topic asking about it. How I laugh when I look back at that (I even said at the time I might later laugh at what I had written lol).

I have a question. You graph shows quite a nice rise and then plummets. In your honest opinion do you think you are playing hands differently? Also is that downward slope caused by bad beats (opponents chasing draws with massively incorrect odds and getting lucky, losing several preflop all ins when you are big favourite etc)? These are serious questions you have to ask yourself. If you're playing different (maybe your initial success made you overconfident?) try to go back. If you're unlucky then carry on with some more hands. Otherwise maybe consider moving down. Gl. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Anyone successful at 10nl? (Help needed)
 

[ QUOTE ]
How many hands do you think someone needs to play before he has a good view of his winnings?

[/ QUOTE ]

20,000 hands is something to start with, but it is not very precise. See, just loosing a couple of all-ins to villain´s 4-outers may chance your winrate then. Or flopping set over set like 3 times may make it hard to see that medium pocket pairs are really overplayed, unless you have a very close look.

Having said that, 20,000 hands is not meaningless at all. There is a good chance that major leaks can be found using these numbers.

[ QUOTE ]
You may say, I need to learn a lot. No problem, that's why I joined 2+2 [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

me too [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Anyone successful at 10nl? (Help needed)
 

How much are you sitting down with?