NL 10 players/flop question
 

In a NL 10 poker stars full ring game what players/flop figures should I look for in the lobby before selecting a game? Clearly the higher the better but what is the cut off figure where I should say to myself, "no don't enter that table"?

Thanks. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: NL 10 players/flop question
 

Yeah, I haven't seen this question posed before but I think it's a good one. I'd say if the VPIP is above the 30's it's probably higher than I'd like to tangle with. If you are sitting at a table with 40+% seeing every flop, it's going to be very difficult to raise to get anything hu. Playing tight while everyone else plays loose doesn't work if you can't narrow the field. Most of the time you are missing the flop and one of the other 3 villains who called your raise will already have a better made hand. [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

Re: NL 10 players/flop question
 

Any serious answers?

Re: NL 10 players/flop question
 

lol...I WAS serious! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Once it gets above 39 or so it seems to suck imo. At least I'm not playing my normal game anymore. I become weak/tight and just start to overlimp everything hoping to hit some monster. That's no fun to me and I find I just spew as I call along on draws that rarely, if ever hit.

I'll keep checking back though to see what others have to allow...

Re: NL 10 players/flop question
 

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Any serious answers?

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[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]


Hopefully CMAR will chime in with his views and he seems too put alot of effort into selecting the right tables to play on.

Re: NL 10 players/flop question
 

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In a NL 10 poker stars full ring game what players/flop figures should I look for in the lobby before selecting a game? Clearly the higher the better but what is the cut off figure where I should say to myself, "no don't enter that table"?

Thanks. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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A really wild table is always worth sitting at, even if it's fold/fold/fold. Just play pairs cheap as you can against fullstacks.

Re: NL 10 players/flop question
 

Btw to clarify by cut off figure I mean the lower end. Read my post back and realised it's not clear.

Re: NL 10 players/flop question
 

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Btw to clarify by cut off figure I mean the lower end. Read my post back and realised it's not clear.

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Well, you already know my upper end preference. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

For the lower I like to stay above 30 but will drop down to 28% or so if there is nothing better...

Re: NL 10 players/flop question
 

Ok thanks. And may I ask what time of day you play? Are you from the UK? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: NL 10 players/flop question
 

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Btw to clarify by cut off figure I mean the lower end. Read my post back and realised it's not clear.

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Well, you already know my upper end preference. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

For the lower I like to stay above 30 but will drop down to 28% or so if there is nothing better...

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A table with high percentages like that just means a TAG hasn't sat down and abused them yet. Find these tables and then find the LAGs at them and get a seat to their left. You want them on your right. The guys playing 50%+ of their hands will spew chips to you if you sit on their left.

Re: NL 10 players/flop question
 

Is there an optimal time of day to find tables with these figures?

Re: NL 10 players/flop question
 

The tables at 25 and 50 NL get looser as the evening goes on, with the worst times being in the morning, the best times are probably after I go to bed. Whenever people get home from work and start playing around. I think you can pretty much always find a lag to exploit at the micro limits though.

Re: NL 10 players/flop question
 

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Ok thanks. And may I ask what time of day you play? Are you from the UK? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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I'm in Florida and I need to play at night instead of in the day. The day games suck! [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: NL 10 players/flop question
 

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Hopefully CMAR will chime in with his views and he seems too put alot of effort into selecting the right tables to play on.

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lol

Well, I don't have a ton of $10NL experience...

IMHO, you want as high a players per flop as possible. Looking through tables it seems 35%+ should be a realistic goal for $10NL. However it depends how many tables you are playing. If you're playing 1 table you can be an awful lot more picky than if you 12 table.

You don't necessarily want a super-high average pot size since it implies LAGs which are more difficult to deal with than loose-passives. However, average pot size is tricky because one or two stackages can throw an otherwise tight table's average pot size through the roof.

Do keep an eye on hands per hour, if it's very high with a high players per flop it just means the table was recently short and the numbers are completely unreliable.

Thing is, you should consider your playing style as well when choosing tables and opponents to play against. Also your own flexibility and ability to adjust. If you play a very LAG style, playing against a bunch of calling stations may not be ideal. You'd actually be better off playing against a bunch of weak-tighties and TAGs you can steamroll. OTOH, if you're a meticulous value better then a table full of calling stations are just right for you.


If you're sitting at a table where you're 4X+1 raises are always getting 4 callers, then start raising 6X+1, then 8X+1. Whatever you can get away with, particularly with position and strong hands. If they want to call big raises and then fold all the better for you. And limp/call preflop with a wide range looking to get paid off when you hit. SC's, PP's and even suited aces are gold at these kinds of tables. You can also start making small pf raises with these hands in order to juice the pot to help you extract postflop.

Lay off the cbets with air. Particularly if you're OOP, against multiple callers and/or versus a bunch of stations. You don't have to disguise your play much at these levels. So if it comes down to it, bet when you have a hand and check/fold when you don't. They'll call you no matter what anyway.

These kinds of tables can be very high variance, but also very profitable. Just be very wary of playing cards that make second best hands like KQ/KJ/AJ/QJ. You want to play small pots with TP with these kinds of hands and that's often not possible at super-loose tables. So unless your hand reading skills are top notch, avoid getting yourself into trouble. Play them strictly for 2pair or better and monsters/monster draws. If you meet resistance with KJ or QJ on a jack high flop, slow it way, way down and as weak-tight as it sounds consider folding in some situations.

Re: NL 10 players/flop question
 

I search specifically for an average pot size of around $2 and then I proceed to looking for a % of players seeing the flop above 40% (this is on FTP), I then go on to look at stack sizes. I dont like any more than 2 SSers at any table I am playing at. Tables without SSers are difficult to find, but you can usually find tables with these stats and a reasonable amount of medium-big stacks at a table.

This is how I start every session

Re: NL 10 players/flop question
 

I am on PS now and it is a struggle to find any games above 30% [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] I must play at the wrong time.

Thanks for that info Cry me a river. I have saved it to read again. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: NL 10 players/flop question
 

Really? Looking at Stars $10NL right now there's a dozen tables at or above 30% with about 1/3 of those about 35%.

Re: NL 10 players/flop question
 

At the time I was on there was just one table above 30% and it was 31% with two people waiting. I logged on just now and can see 11 tables. Well that's good then. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: NL 10 players/flop question
 

In a poker book I read the author said that the money that a poker player makes is more dependent on the weakness of his his opponents than in his own superior skills. I think this is very true, in the way that I don't need to be the best player at the table to win some money if there are several donkeys playing.

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Do keep an eye on hands per hour, if it's very high with a high players per flop it just means the table was recently short and the numbers are completely unreliable.


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Good point, I never thought of that.

Personally I use SpadeEye which scans all the players at all the tables and then I search for the table with highest average vpip (automatically counted from my PT stats for the players). When I've checked through those tables I look for all my favorite fish - who need to have close to full stacks, and join them for the fun. My only problem is that my fish don't know proper table selection. They might be sitting at a table full of nits, in which case I'll take another table and occasionally there will be several juicy players in one table in which case there often is a waiting list.

Sometimes I see a good table, but which is short. I play horrible short handed, so I just take a good seat and sit out hoping that it will fill soon.

Maybe this is a bit extreme for NL5, but I do see results quickly when playing with the weaker players.

Re: NL 10 players/flop question
 

It hasn't occurred to you that a table full of nits is ideal for the LAG we are looking to target?

Re: NL 10 players/flop question
 

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It hasn't occurred to you that a table full of nits is ideal for the LAG we are looking to target?

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Not really. Since I think we all at NL5 are weak players, and most go too far with second best hands. To be paid of with my monsters I find it ideal to have many players on the flop who will build the pot with me. It just sucks to have a set when only the weak-tight big blind is in the hand.

Re: NL 10 players/flop question
 

No, I mean perhaps the LAG is looking for a table of NITS. Because NITS get exploited by LAGS. Was just a theory as to why the LAG is sitting at the table full of NITS.

Re: NL 10 players/flop question
 

Oh, ok. Sorry, I missunderstood your reply. The players that I look for are more of a loose-passive kind, and at NL5 their skill level is not at such a level that they would be able to exploit nits (I think plays according to villain type are rare in NL5 in general). But I do understand your point, and in higher stakes games I'm sure you would be correct. Its just that with NL5 being the smallest game at my site I usually tend to believe that the loose-passive players are the weakest and most easily exploitable.

I've also made an interesting note that PT often ranks new players as loose-agressive instead of passive because they make so many min-bets and PT doesn't make a difference in bet sizing. Not that this is a problem, I just found it interesting when I noticed it.

Sometimes I wonder if my hunt for loose-passive players is optimal. The thing is that I notice many of the tighter players have a much more predictable hand range, and its easy to put them on an over pair if they continue to bet on a low flop - which would make it profitable to call with almost anything as they would probably get stacked if I can beat one pair. What do you guys think?

The other players I wonder about are 60/30 -type players since its so hard to put them on ranges as they can raise almost anything from any position. Its easy to think that by getting a monster they can be stacked, but its difficult to know if say TPGK is enough since they are usually agressive with any piece of the flop.

Re: NL 10 players/flop question
 

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Sometimes I wonder if my hunt for loose-passive players is optimal. The thing is that I notice many of the tighter players have a much more predictable hand range, and its easy to put them on an over pair if they continue to bet on a low flop - which would make it profitable to call with almost anything as they would probably get stacked if I can beat one pair. What do you guys think?

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Yes! I'm constantly reassessing this idea. I look for loosish tables but am forever wondering why?! I really prefer a player who is thinking, albeit not thinking well. A "reasonable" villain is so much more predicatable and is therefore much easier to read. Easier to read is easier to beat.

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The other players I wonder about are 60/30 -type players since its so hard to put them on ranges as they can raise almost anything from any position. Its easy to think that by getting a monster they can be stacked, but its difficult to know if say TPGK is enough since they are usually agressive with any piece of the flop.

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Again, I completely agree. I've tried many a time to beat them at their own game. I'll take my marginal hand to showdown and will be beaten basically every single time. Hopefully by now I've finally learned my lesson. Too bad my list of lessons is so long...it's a whole lot to keep up with! [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: NL 10 players/flop question
 

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Sometimes I wonder if my hunt for loose-passive players is optimal. The thing is that I notice many of the tighter players have a much more predictable hand range, and its easy to put them on an over pair if they continue to bet on a low flop - which would make it profitable to call with almost anything as they would probably get stacked if I can beat one pair. What do you guys think?

The other players I wonder about are 60/30 -type players since its so hard to put them on ranges as they can raise almost anything from any position. Its easy to think that by getting a monster they can be stacked, but its difficult to know if say TPGK is enough since they are usually agressive with any piece of the flop.

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I much prefer the 60/30 players, a table with a few of those is heaven. If you dont want to stack off with TPTK then just fold it on the turn, or check it on through. I am always happy to get my money in with AK on a K high flop knowing Villan will pay me off with a TPWK.

I dont like playing at tables with TAG's, its too boring and i end playing back at them and get caught out eventualy.

Re: NL 10 players/flop question
 

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I much prefer the 60/30 players, a table with a few of those is heaven. If you dont want to stack off with TPTK then just fold it on the turn, or check it on through. I am always happy to get my money in with AK on a K high flop knowing Villan will pay me off with a TPWK.


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With AK I'll of course get it in with them on an A or K board, but its when I call their raise with TJ suited and the board comes T-high and they keep firing that I don't know whats the correct way to continue. Since they have raised every third hand they have been delt I can't just put them on an over pair, but AT, KT, QT could be just as likely as an under pair to the board or just over cards. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

I don't want to be bullied by them, but I don't want to get all in with TPGK since I know its probably a coin flip against their range and I can get my money in when its more likely to be good. Usually these people have smaller stacks too, unless they just doubled up, so if I raise I get committed. I guess I'll just need to wait and bleed chips until I have a hand thats good enough to play for stacks.

Re: NL 10 players/flop question
 

Just play hands like that for the draw purposes and fold even if your hit a J or T on the board. If they have a shortish stack calling the flop bet is the worst thing too do i think. Either fold or shove, I'd shove knowing i am miles ahead of his range.

Re: NL 10 players/flop question
 

One thing I have noticed about Stars in particular is that the fast tables usually have the higher Flop%. There are a lot of 8,10,12 tabling setminers that play NL10 and they mostly stick to the normal tables, so as they don't time out probably. Single tablers/just for fun players hate having to wait on multitablers so they play the fast tables.

I look for stack sizes first and then Flop %. When you have more than 2 or 3 shorties on your table it really affects how you play. (Esp at a 9 player table) You have to tighten up somewhat because the implied odds are not there to play speculative hands against raises/re-raises from these guys.

Re: NL 10 players/flop question
 

The only thing I look for is stacksizes, more than 2 or 3 shortstacks and I'm not playing.

Re: NL 10 players/flop question
 

There is an interesting essay that related to this in Poker Essays 1(or 2, not) that asks what is the optimal number of bad players. I believe he concluded that 5 at a 10 table is best. If you take a logical guess from here if you have 5 bad(loose) players and 5 tight ones then the optimal VPIP for the table should probably be in the 60-70 percent area.

Re: NL 10 players/flop question
 

more like 40%