The New York Back Raise...25/50 Live
 

I have played in Vegas, AC, Foxwoods, LA, and online, and I have never seen the back raise used as prominently/effectively it's used in the NYC games. I generally refrain from using it, but I am continually in awe with how much it's used and in what situations it works.

I decided to try one in an interesting spot in a 25/50 live game recently. The game is 7 handed, with stacks ranging from 25-50k.

Sometimes there is a straddle, but in this hand there is not. A relatively tight player opens utg+2 to 400 and I decide to smooth call with QQ. Generally, I reraise here, but I call with big pairs from time to time, as well.

The button is a young player who I had never seen before, but who had been playing aggressively and bluffing more than most. He was apparently up 30k before I got to the game, but he had lost most of that back within the time I was in the game, mainly by bluffing in spots that didn't make much sense, such as a hand where he reraised pre, got called, bet an A55ss flop, was called, bet 5k on a 5 turn, was called, and checked folded the A river (he later claimed to have 97ss).

That said, he definitely reraises more than most preflop in this game. Other than that he seems decent.

Onto the hand, effective stacks 25k. Utg+2 opens, I smooth his 400 raise with QQ, the button (villian in the hand) makes it 1500 to go.

This is when the hand gets interesting, the SB cold calls. The BB then cold calls, and the original raiser calls as well!

I most likely have the sb, bb, and original raiser beat, but I can't be sure.

It's back on me. What do people think of a backraise here??
What amount should I raise to optimally?

If I make it 10k straight, and the reraiser shoves for 14k more, do I call if everyone else folded?

Should I make it less? Not backraise at all? Do reraise more or less to alter the odds I lay myself to a shove?

I decided to make it 10400 to go, and the original reraiser shoved VERY quickly, everyone else folded, and it was 13000 more to me.

Thanks,
dlpnyc21

Re: The New York Back Raise...25/50 Live
 

if you have intentions of at least considering folding it, i'd make it like 8k, and i doubt that's even small enough to then fold vs the button. as is you're getting 3-1 having effectively put in a squeeze vs a very aggro opponent who is stuck a lot recently.

Re: The New York Back Raise...25/50 Live
 

when i was a relatively inexperienced bigger live NL player, I fell for the backraise a few times, and shoved random stuff in pretty much the same spot as the kid here (though giving worse odds on the call) because I didn't buy it. Each time I was shown a big pair. So I'd stack off here, he's probably just confused.

But i'd give him more rope in the first place probably.

Re: The New York Back Raise...25/50 Live
 

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when i was a relatively inexperienced bigger live NL player, I fell for the backraise a few times, and shoved random stuff in pretty much the same spot as the kid here (though giving worse odds on the call) because I didn't buy it. Each time I was shown a big pair. So I'd stack off here, he's probably just confused.

But i'd give him more rope in the first place probably.

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These are my exact thoughts, Id raise a little less and INSTA call a shove from the dude who made it 1500

Re: The New York Back Raise...25/50 Live
 

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when i was a relatively inexperienced bigger live NL player, I fell for the backraise a few times, and shoved random stuff in pretty much the same spot as the kid here (though giving worse odds on the call) because I didn't buy it. Each time I was shown a big pair. So I'd stack off here, he's probably just confused.

But i'd give him more rope in the first place probably.

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These are my exact thoughts, Id raise a little less and INSTA call a shove from the dude who made it 1500

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Thirded. The first thought that popped to mind is the time I lost 250BB because the LAST person to call the original raise played back at my squeeze. I was stuck a lot also, and got shown KK. It's VERY tempting and easy to convince yourself that the guy is [censored] with you and 88/AJ/w/e is good.

Re: The New York Back Raise...25/50 Live
 

how would you have played the 97ss dave..i gave up on the river..i bet the flop incase he floats with kings and the 5 on the turn makes a full for both of us but i most likely have an ace if i bet the turn but im not sure what do u think

Re: The New York Back Raise...25/50 Live
 

and btw what did u have in the hand where it was 8jk with 2 diamonds cause i had 87 where the dude on ur left made a 1k donk bet and u called and i made it 4k

Re: The New York Back Raise...25/50 Live
 

sick

Re: The New York Back Raise...25/50 Live
 

once yuo raise, it's the easiest call ever.

Re: The New York Back Raise...25/50 Live
 

reraise to whatever commits you and call a push

Re: The New York Back Raise...25/50 Live
 

I predict the results; hero called and lost to AA, KK or AK.

Re: The New York Back Raise...25/50 Live
 

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I predict the results; hero called and lost to AA, KK or AK.

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mdma, you should be a fortune teller

Re: The New York Back Raise...25/50 Live
 

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when i was a relatively inexperienced bigger live NL player, I fell for the backraise a few times, and shoved random stuff in pretty much the same spot as the kid here (though giving worse odds on the call) because I didn't buy it. Each time I was shown a big pair. So I'd stack off here, he's probably just confused.

But i'd give him more rope in the first place probably.

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The one problem is how many people he has to shove against. He has literally 3 other callers between me and him, so when he shoves v. my back raise, he has to assume his hand is good enough to beat all 3 other hands, including my hand. Is this any consideration to a fold? When I raised, I decided I would be best off folding to a shove (because of the reason stated above), but when I chose the amount, I laid myself such a sick price that I had to call.

Re: The New York Back Raise...25/50 Live
 

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how would you have played the 97ss dave..i gave up on the river..i bet the flop incase he floats with kings and the 5 on the turn makes a full for both of us but i most likely have an ace if i bet the turn but im not sure what do u think

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I would give up after you get called on that flop. He is never folding if he calls the flop.

Re: The New York Back Raise...25/50 Live
 

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and btw what did u have in the hand where it was 8jk with 2 diamonds cause i had 87 where the dude on ur left made a 1k donk bet and u called and i made it 4k

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I had A10dd.

Re: The New York Back Raise...25/50 Live
 

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The one problem is how many people he has to shove against. He has literally 3 other callers between me and him, so when he shoves v. my back raise, he has to assume his hand is good enough to beat all 3 other hands, including my hand. Is this any consideration to a fold? When I raised, I decided I would be best off folding to a shove (because of the reason stated above), but when I chose the amount, I laid myself such a sick price that I had to call.

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I think that the players inbetween, given the action, must be a non-consideration as far as he's concerned. The original opener who made it $400 is the only slightly remote possibility that he has to worry about, and after he flat calls the orginal button reraise to $1500 after the players inbetween come along, he almost never has a hand to stack off with.

He shoves only worrying about action from your hand and he knows it. None of the other players are ever coming along here.

Re: The New York Back Raise...25/50 Live
 

u dont think he might float with 10's or something and then give up if i bet the turn when the 5 hits

Re: The New York Back Raise...25/50 Live
 

how do u do in this game btw..are u one of the biggest winners?

Re: The New York Back Raise...25/50 Live
 

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u dont think he might float with 10's or something and then give up if i bet the turn when the 5 hits

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not that particular player. v. other players at the table, i would double and triple barrel.

Re: The New York Back Raise...25/50 Live
 

im guessing ur staying up all day as well

Re: The New York Back Raise...25/50 Live
 

i'm just curious about this game in general-how often do people stack off for ~500bbs preflop with less than AA?

is it just in really contrived situations like this that it becomes feasible,or are the games so aggro that you're just hardly ever folding big pairs regardless of stacks?

Re: The New York Back Raise...25/50 Live
 

What is max/min buy in?

Re: The New York Back Raise...25/50 Live
 

I would guess that the backraise is prominent because people routinely make it 15+ BBs with garbage hands and get lots of callers.

I'll go with (TWP's?) advice: reraise enough that you're committed and plan to get it allin. Given what you did, I'd still get allin.

Re: The New York Back Raise...25/50 Live
 

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I predict the results; hero called and lost to AA, KK or AK.

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way to go out on a limb, mdma [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: The New York Back Raise...25/50 Live
 

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i'm just curious about this game in general-how often do people stack off for ~500bbs preflop with less than AA?

is it just in really contrived situations like this that it becomes feasible,or are the games so aggro that you're just hardly ever folding big pairs regardless of stacks?

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it's rare to see people stack off for 250bbs with less than AK. The problem with this hand is: I just wanted to pick up the 7k in the middle with no showdown, and instead I priced myself into calling.

When he shoves 24k in the middle having only 1500 invested, after I backraised, he is likely to have AK/AA/KK. Even if he has that range though, it looks like I am STILL priced into calling, which is my mistake. In retrospect, I like making it 7k and folding to a shove a lot better than what I did.

dlpnyc21

Re: The New York Back Raise...25/50 Live
 

Because of how suspect your play can look sometimes, his range isn't only AA, KK and AK here. That's most of his range, but you can't throw out JJ, TT completely.

Re: The New York Back Raise...25/50 Live
 

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how do u do in this game btw..are u one of the biggest winners?

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i do fairly well in the game. there are some HUGE winners in the game, and it's pretty easy to tell who they are. i am not among the biggest winners (although i am significantly up) in the game. i also don't always play the 25/50 because i either get there too late or i am not first up on the "priority" list.

Re: The New York Back Raise...25/50 Live
 

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Because of how suspect your play can look sometimes, his range isn't only AA, KK and AK here. That's most of his range, but you can't throw out JJ, TT completely.

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if the pot was HU, i'd agree with you. but there is no telling what the SB/BB, or original raiser could have woken up with (esp. the original raiser), making shoving with TT there suicide. i said the villain reraised preflop more than most...i didn't say he was an idiot.
dlpnyc21

Re: The New York Back Raise...25/50 Live
 

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and btw what did u have in the hand where it was 8jk with 2 diamonds cause i had 87 where the dude on ur left made a 1k donk bet and u called and i made it 4k

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I had A10dd.

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puke

Re: The New York Back Raise...25/50 Live
 

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Because of how suspect your play can look sometimes, his range isn't only AA, KK and AK here. That's most of his range, but you can't throw out JJ, TT completely.

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I have seen others stack off in this spot with jacks before. I've done it myself.

Re: The New York Back Raise...25/50 Live
 

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and btw what did u have in the hand where it was 8jk with 2 diamonds cause i had 87 where the dude on ur left made a 1k donk bet and u called and i made it 4k

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I had A10dd.

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puke

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nevermind, i thought from the wording that you mucked this.

Re: The New York Back Raise...25/50 Live
 

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Because of how suspect your play can look sometimes, his range isn't only AA, KK and AK here. That's most of his range, but you can't throw out JJ, TT completely.

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I have seen others stack off in this spot with jacks before. I've done it myself.

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i've never stacked off 250bbs with JJ before, but i've done it with AK a WHOLE bunch of times. I'm not sure if that makes me better or worse than you.

Re: The New York Back Raise...25/50 Live
 

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I would guess that the backraise is prominent because people routinely make it 15+ BBs with garbage hands and get lots of callers.

I'll go with (TWP's?) advice: reraise enough that you're committed and plan to get it allin. Given what you did, I'd still get allin.

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you realize a back raise is not the same as a limp-reraise, right?

Re: The New York Back Raise...25/50 Live
 

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Because of how suspect your play can look sometimes, his range isn't only AA, KK and AK here. That's most of his range, but you can't throw out JJ, TT completely.

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if the pot was HU, i'd agree with you. but there is no telling what the SB/BB, or original raiser could have woken up with (esp. the original raiser), making shoving with TT there suicide. i said the villain reraised preflop more than most...i didn't say he was an idiot.
dlpnyc21

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How often are the SB or the BB ever coldcalling the raise and the reraise in a pot with that many players when they have a hand that could stack off in this situation? It seems to me that you're slightly fixated on this point which should be a non-issue. I think once the original raiser (to $400) flatcalls the raise to $1500 in what will surely be at least a 5 way pot that it's safe to say that the only people who might have big pairs are you (since you did, and you reraised) and the kid on the button.

I've pushed JJ in his shoes before because you just think "the odds of him having what he's repping here are really small" and i'd say that 2/3 times, they have what they're repping. It doesn't mean that I won't make the play again.

Re: The New York Back Raise...25/50 Live
 

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I would guess that the backraise is prominent because people routinely make it 15+ BBs with garbage hands and get lots of callers.

I'll go with (TWP's?) advice: reraise enough that you're committed and plan to get it allin. Given what you did, I'd still get allin.

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you realize a back raise is not the same as a limp-reraise, right?

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Hmm. I've got a friend who uses backraise to mean limp-reraise, and that's the only time I've heard that term used.

I guess this is a different spot, but the times I've seen people stack off with JJ have been in this spot that you are describing. Not sure if it was for 250 BBs, but it was def. for 150+.

Re: The New York Back Raise...25/50 Live
 

is this a joke thread ?

Re: The New York Back Raise...25/50 Live
 

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In retrospect, I like making it 7k and folding to a shove a lot better than what I did.

dlpnyc21

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do you like making it 7k w/A2o here?

Re: The New York Back Raise...25/50 Live
 

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I guess this is a different spot, but the times I've seen people stack off with JJ have been in this spot that you are describing. Not sure if it was for 250 BBs, but it was def. for 150+.

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Besides, 250 BBs is only about 50 NYC BBs, isn't it? I'm always a little unsure of the conversion rate.

Re: The New York Back Raise...25/50 Live
 

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In retrospect, I like making it 7k and folding to a shove a lot better than what I did.

dlpnyc21

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do you like making it 7k w/A2o here?

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i see people back raising with hands like 89s, 66, AK/AA/KK. I don't like it too much with QQ, like I did. I'd much prefer to have a hand like 89ss or air like A2o (although I don't call raises with those hands usually).

So, no, I don't have A2o here, but I definitely could have T9ss or a hand like 66, although villain most likely wouldn't suspect me to have those hands.

dlpnyc21

Re: The New York Back Raise...25/50 Live
 

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I guess this is a different spot, but the times I've seen people stack off with JJ have been in this spot that you are describing. Not sure if it was for 250 BBs, but it was def. for 150+.

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Besides, 250 BBs is only about 50 NYC BBs, isn't it? I'm always a little unsure of the conversion rate.

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normally this is the case because there is usually a straddle or a double straddle--but in this case, there was not. And I don't like losing 50k pots preflop with QQ, even if there was a straddle in the hand.

Thanks for the advice on the hands, guys, I guess I wasn't too much of a donkey in the hand, even sure I sure as hell felt like one.

dlpnyc21