Tough spot w/Set multi way 200 BB deep
 

Villain is 24/16/3 over 500 hands. My image at table is 25/20 and aggressive.


Curious to hear people's lines and what to make of this. Villain is solid, and his call/reraise through me off. There are no flush draws, and I can't see him doing this with 44. So only sets and straights make sense.

Other ideas? Thoughts?

Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.50/$1 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

Hero (SB): $246.45
BB: $87.90
UTG: $180.00
MP: $116.90
CO: $114.75
BTN: $37.85

Preflop: Hero is dealt 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (6 Players)
<font color="red">UTG raises to $4.00</font>, MP folds, CO calls $4.00, BTN calls $4.00, Hero calls $3.50, BB calls $3.00

Flop: ($20) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 Players)
Hero checks, <font color="red">BB bets $6.00</font>, UTG calls $6.00, CO calls $6.00, BTN calls $6.00, <font color="red">Hero raises to $36.00</font>, BB folds, <font color="red">UTG raises to $90.00</font>, CO folds, BTN calls all-in for $27.85, <font color="red">Hero ...</font>

Re: Tough spot w/Set multi way 200 BB deep
 

i go broke..............
he prob has AA-QQ a lot here.

actually i put him on 4-6. w/e

Re: Tough spot w/Set multi way 200 BB deep
 

24/16 is raising 46 / a4 UTG almost never. It's only sets or overpairs. A postflop read other than the vague 'solid' would be so useful here. Without it, I'd just shove it. You may look like you're just trying to pick up all the dumb money in the pot, UTG may feel like you're making a move and he's unable to fold 99, maybe he's not so bright and was slowplaying aces, maybe he has 44, whatever..

Re: Tough spot w/Set multi way 200 BB deep
 

wow don't c/r in this spot it makes your hand look insanely strong, especially since there is no fd on the board. Whatever he has he played it ... weird.

Re: Tough spot w/Set multi way 200 BB deep
 

24/16 definitely raise Axs and small suited 1-gappers in EP every so often.

Re: Tough spot w/Set multi way 200 BB deep
 

[ QUOTE ]
i go broke..............
he prob has AA-QQ a lot here.

actually i put him on 4-6. w/e

[/ QUOTE ]

OBV Call, fill up if he has straight and berate if he has a set.

Re: Tough spot w/Set multi way 200 BB deep
 

Since my line looks strong, can there be an argument for bet/fold flop? What about flop lead? My goal was to get the dead money, and when he reraised I had the bells going off in my head.

No other read than solid. My image at the table might have been a bit whack but I think he knows I don't get out of line very often. I think he can accurately read my hand for a set - which makes me really want to puke/fold.

Re: Tough spot w/Set multi way 200 BB deep
 

you pretty much have to call this 3way.... you lose a lot of the time tho

UTG could easily have an overpair here, button maybe A4? this whole hand is pretty wtf but im not too upset to get it in

Re: Tough spot w/Set multi way 200 BB deep
 

(btw, this hand is wtf due to other players, not op)

Re: Tough spot w/Set multi way 200 BB deep
 

You shove IMO. A4 unlikely, big overpair seems most probable.
Set unlikely as UTG raised preflop.
You're not dead against a straight even if that is the case.

Re: Tough spot w/Set multi way 200 BB deep
 

He is telling you he has the higher set. He called a flop bet and RERAISED a CHECKRAISE.

If you saw him mae funky moves shove, but if he was solid throughout the sample I might fold there.

Re: Tough spot w/Set multi way 200 BB deep
 

[ QUOTE ]
Set unlikely as UTG raised preflop.


[/ QUOTE ]
Why? aren't all 24/16s raising all pocket pairs utg?
I think this is a fold. I don't think he'd call BB's bet with an overpair, he want want some protection.

Re: Tough spot w/Set multi way 200 BB deep
 

I would think there is a good chanced he has AA/KK and with the money already in I go with it. I also agree he will have a higher set quite a bit of the time. Most other hands don't makes sense given stats and his position, maybe around 5% he has the suited Ace for the straight i guess.

If you assign hand ranges in Pokerstove then look at money in already you should be able to figure out if a shove is +EV, i am at work so can't do this right now.

If he has a set take a note and perhaps you could fold it next time but not the first time.

Re: Tough spot w/Set multi way 200 BB deep
 

It looks to me like AA has decided to trap some dead money in the pot.

If he has an overpair, it's AA. KK/QQ would not flat call the flop bet, given that an Ace or a 4 on the Turn would be a disaster. AA really doesn't have any free cards to fear. So he decided to be tricky. Now that he's gotten a lot of money in the pot, he wants to take it down.

BTW: Donk bet this flop.

Re: Tough spot w/Set multi way 200 BB deep
 

against AA/KK, higher sets, and A4, you still hold 47% equity. If you take out KK, you have 38%. (which is an absurdly tight range.)

sooo, i think you have to just grit your teeth and get your money in.

Re: Tough spot w/Set multi way 200 BB deep
 

Fold. You are not committed to the pot. You are way behind against a set of 33 or 55. Most likely villain has a set of 55.

Re: Tough spot w/Set multi way 200 BB deep
 

i fold here. if he's a solid reg, at 24/16 he's not shoving aa kk here. that's absolutely retarded for him to do. yea he could be tilting but your read is that he's solid. 33 44 is definitely in his range, 46s is definitely debatable, but whatev, i think you're behind here almost always.

Re: Tough spot w/Set multi way 200 BB deep
 

I think here he either has A4s, 33, 44, 55, or a badly played AA.Nothing else makes sense. 46s is a tiny possibility I think given stats and action.

Re: Tough spot w/Set multi way 200 BB deep
 

I find this situation to be especially common in live play. People make such random plays with anything from AA to 66, 53s, etc, so I never really know what to do in these spots. If As Erudito said, I'd typically fold 200BB deep...which may seem pretty nitty, but I feel he's right in that you don't really need to gamble.

Re: Tough spot w/Set multi way 200 BB deep
 

i go all in

Re: Tough spot w/Set multi way 200 BB deep
 

[ QUOTE ]
i fold here. if he's a solid reg, at 24/16 he's not shoving aa kk here. that's absolutely retarded for him to do. yea he could be tilting but your read is that he's solid. 33 44 is definitely in his range, 46s is definitely debatable, but whatev, i think you're behind here almost always.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with nation. Your line looks so strong. If villain is even close to solid, he will notice that you just c/r into 4 opponents on a coord flop. Seriously, if he is close to decent he doesn't stack off with AA/KK here. I would probably include ~54s in his range for a pair+oesd, but this is more commonly a set or a straight. I certainly think a 24/16 can occasionally be raising 46s UTG.

I would like to hear opinions on which is better this deep, c/r'ing or donking. There are good arguments for both.

As played, fold to the 3bet.

Re: Tough spot w/Set multi way 200 BB deep
 

I think an argument can be made for donk betting - but if you get reraised by the UTG raiser (as in this case), can we put him only on sets or pair+OESD? Overpairs do make up a good portion of his range from UTG. So here's my thoughts on the lines:

A) donk bet. If I get raised I can still think that he could have AA/KK and other hands. It doesn't define his hand as much as the C/R. So on the donk bet, I would think that it would be more likely to get a lot of chips in. Also, I'm not sure what other hands I would donk bet to balance this that I would have just called other than maybe 45c type of hands.

B) C/R - even though this line looks really strong, and it does define my hand, it also defines his (making both our actions more pure, and our hands more readable). I don't know that he would 3 bet bluff AA/KK all in often enough to make getting stacks in here.

So I that boils it down to I took line B and should fold.