Caught Cheating--What to do?
 

New to forum, joined mainly to ask this question at bottom:

Heres the situation:

This is a $100 min. buy in cash game NL hold em. Most people buy in for $100-$300. If there isnt a full table, the dealer plays. (There is a full time dealer who gets a cut of the rake from the host of the game, who also plays; but no one has ever objected to the dealer playing.)

I know for a FACT, 100%, that this dealer is cheating. Once, while involved in a big pot with him, I made a big bet on the river, after long contemplation he folded, I mucked, then while gathering up the cards to reshuffle, he glimpsed my cards (KK). Also, Ive noticed that after every break, he wins a huge hand and the loser of this huge hand is ALWAYS in seat 3. He'll flop a set against AA or he'll have a FH against the nut Flush. He is also very proficient in handling cards. I dont think anyone else has noticed or caught on, but Im CERTAIN of whats going on.

The ONLY reason I didnt call him out instantly is I have no proof. It would only be his word against mine. Also, I dont know if the host is in on the scam. The host is a moron who sucks at poker, so he could be taken advantage of by this dealer who he thinks is a friend, or he could be in on it,...I just dont know.

So what should I do? I really want to take this to physical confrontation, but I want to know if the host is in on it first? Does anyone know of a way of finding out if the host is in on the fix? (other than asking him because if hes not in on it, he wont believe me and I cant prove it, but if he is he'll just lie.

What would you do? I AM NOT GONNA LET THIS GO UNCHECKED, that is not an option....ideas?

Re: Caught Cheating--What to do?
 

Bring a gun to the next game. If seat three loses a big pot to him, point it at the dealer and ask him if he's cheating. You'll get your answer.


...


Don't play in the game anymore.

Re: Caught Cheating--What to do?
 

I would seriously just not go play anymore, but if that doesn't suit you I guess you could tell the guy in seat 3 what you think is happening and get him in on the information. If he is aware and then goes to the host and tells his concerns well then maybe you have a case. If the host doesn't seem to care or gets defensive he might be in on it. I would still say just don't go to that game anymore.

Re: Caught Cheating--What to do?
 

1. Intently watch the way he shuffles and deals. Make a statement in the middle of a deal that you saw a certain card and ask for a redeal.

2. Make him change set-ups or wash the cards before every deal. I would definitely make him do it after the break.

3. If he refuses, then leave.

P [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: Caught Cheating--What to do?
 

Let seat 3 know what is going on, and when you come back after the break tell seat 3 to fold his monster after he made the hand and keep an eye on the dealer and see what his reaction is. if the goes absolutely mental its guaranteed he’s cheating.

Re: Caught Cheating--What to do?
 

[ QUOTE ]
tell seat 3 to fold his monster after he made the hand and keep an eye on the dealer and see what his reaction is. if the goes absolutely mental its guaranteed he’s cheating.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lays down a monster. Should have paid me off on that. The [censored] you lay that down?

Re: Caught Cheating--What to do?
 

[ QUOTE ]
What would you do? I AM NOT GONNA LET THIS GO UNCHECKED, that is not an option....ideas?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nor should you.

I would loudly fold ON THE FLOP, especially if you have a decent hand (or a huge hand, if you have the balls for it) and say "no point in playing, dealer's going to beat seat #3 anyway, since we're back from break"

HAS to be after cards are dealt and action occurs preflop- don't give him a chance to bail.

Then, don't plan on playing there ever again.... because you won't be allowed to

BTW- misleading title, you didn't "catch" anyone cheating, other than the peek.

Re: Caught Cheating--What to do?
 

[ QUOTE ]

2. Make him change set-ups or wash the cards before every deal. I would definitely make him do it after the break.


[/ QUOTE ]

I would insist on cutting the cards and using a three- or four- stack leapfrog cut, if the dealer is playing in the hand. That will solve some of the problems.

Re: Caught Cheating--What to do?
 

sit in seat 3. get a piece of paper and write something to the effect of you are going to get a cooler this hand. out him infront of everyone.

alternatively, tell him you know and he is going to give you half his profit every night or you'll have everyone kick his ass.

sounds to me like the guy running things probably doesn't know. but if you want to find out and he is a life donk it should be pretty easy.

go to guy and say, so what did you do today and he looks up and to the right and answers and everything is fine, and then you say what you did today.. got back from beating the hell out of a guy who was running a shady game of poker. okay that's too harsh, maybe something like, 'you think anyone ever gets away with cheating here? i was reading about all these ways people cheat'

if he is nervous and especially if he now glances up and to the left, he knows.

Re: Caught Cheating--What to do?
 

object to the dealer playing, or deal from a blackjack shoe.

Re: Caught Cheating--What to do?
 

obviously you probably shouldn't play there if you think the dealer is cheating.

if there is a rake, and a permanent dealer, that dealer should defiantly not be playing while dealing.

also you don't really need proof, call him out on it, who cares if it becomes your word vs his. outing him should be enough to either get him to quit, or have everyone at the table suddenly pay attention to all his moves, meaning he will get caught, or give-up (that is, if he is cheating)

Re: Caught Cheating--What to do?
 

Lots of good advice. I'd vote for mandatory cuts if the dealer is playing. If they ask why, tell them. If they don't agree to it, don't play.

Re: Caught Cheating--What to do?
 

Ask for someone at the table to do the last cut before dealing.


Look up the proper shuffle/cutting technique on the internet and force the dealer to follow that. There is one that is designed for proper shuffling and also negates most of the cheating tricks.

Re: Caught Cheating--What to do?
 

Tell a friend in the game about the after break cooler.
Sit in the 3 seat, put friend in 6 seat.
When you come back from break, ask to cut the cards.
Pull 3 cards off the bottom, place on top.

Once cards are dealt and before there's any action, tell table of your suspicions. You now have what would have been dealer's hand.
Flip your cards and 6 seat's cards.
Tell dealer to run flop/turn/river.

Take dealer to remote bridge. Bind and gag dealer. Hang dealer from bridge by his ankles. Empty a jar of honey on the rope. Squirrels like honey. Return to game.

Re: Caught Cheating--What to do?
 

I would just request that the dealer never play.
If everyone else votes against you, up and leave unless you are friends with the people getting screwed. In that case talk to those people about it. If you can convince them then they will side with you for having the dealer just deal.
Variance: Now you get horrid beats every game
Then you request a new dealer, rinse and repeat.

Re: Caught Cheating--What to do?
 

[ QUOTE ]
that dealer should defiantly not be playing while dealing.

[/ QUOTE ]
"I am not going to play while dealing and that's final!"

Some of these responses are too tame IMO. Seat three needs to be alerted, dealer needs to be busted in spectacular fashion, etc. Also, this whole setup seems weird to me, which increases my suspicion that the host is in it, although I'm not saying there's a great chance of that.

Re: Caught Cheating--What to do?
 

[ QUOTE ]
(that is, if he is cheating)

[/ QUOTE ]

And if he isn't cheating?


That's why you need proof before pulling this off... and why, unfortunately, people can cheat at first.

Re: Caught Cheating--What to do?
 

Use a cut card and have someone other than the dealer cut the deck. Problem solved.

Re: Caught Cheating--What to do?
 

How come no one has suggest that the OP also start cheating?

Re: Caught Cheating--What to do?
 

OP needs to gather proof of the cheating. These sound like isolated incidences. Here are some procedures that will minimize the potential for cheating.

1. The dealer always offers the opportunity to cut the deck.

2. After a break, the dealer shuffles the deck in front of the table instead of just starting to deal. Substituting a cooked deck is really easy without shuffling.

Re: Caught Cheating--What to do?
 

Help me out. I don't see how you get here:

[ QUOTE ]
I know for a FACT, 100%, that this dealer is cheating.

[/ QUOTE ]

From here:

[ QUOTE ]
Once, while involved in a big pot with him, I made a big bet on the river, after long contemplation he folded, I mucked, then while gathering up the cards to reshuffle, he glimpsed my cards (KK).

[/ QUOTE ]

He cheats because he glimpses the mucked cowboys?

And has no one else connected the lines between break, seat 3, and the cooler?

Re: Caught Cheating--What to do?
 

How is the dealer gripping the cards? If he is using a "mechanic's grip" then most likely it is to control the deal. There's really no reason to ever hold the deck in this way other than to stack the deck, or deal from the bottom.

http://www.duluthpoker.com/cheat/pok...echanics-grip/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanic's_grip

Re: Caught Cheating--What to do?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Lots of good advice. I'd vote for mandatory cuts if the dealer is playing. If they ask why, tell them. If they don't agree to it, don't play.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT

95% of all the cheating questions in this forum can be solved by just cutting the cards before the deal.

Re: Caught Cheating--What to do?
 

Is the dealer Bill Malone?

Do a YouTube search of him.. its worth it.

Re: Caught Cheating--What to do?
 

1) Very simple solution. Play elsewhere. If this is a raked game for mid level stakes with what you perceive to be cheating going on, you have plenty of reasons to find a different venue.

2) Calling someone out will result in the game going down in flames and/or you being thrown out of it. Probably not the best solution. As for getting physical, this is simply idiotic and shouldn't be considered as a possible remedy.

3) I hear the same thing all the timne about home and underground games. Such and such guy is cheating, doing XYZ with the cards, etc etc etc. Almost always unfounded. I spent the better part of three years dealing both the underground scene, and in professional settings, and believe me, it's next to impossible to cheat utilizing a deck. Very, very few people are able to do this with any efficiency, yet everyone claims that the guy at their game is doing it. It is much more likely that you simply have a shady looking guy who wanted to confirm for himself what you held one hand. i wouldn't make a big deal over it.

Re: Caught Cheating--What to do?
 

[ QUOTE ]
How come no one has suggest that the OP also start cheating?

[/ QUOTE ]

i did

Re: Caught Cheating--What to do?
 

[ QUOTE ]
it's next to impossible to cheat utilizing a deck. Very, very few people are able to do this with any efficiency, yet everyone claims that the guy at their game is doing it.

[/ QUOTE ]

But Worm did it in Rounders!

Re: Caught Cheating--What to do?
 

I like the idea of sitting in the 3 seat and folding on the flop with the nuts (nuts at the time, because obviously if the dealer is cheating he'll turn or river a better hand) and see what his reaction is. If he's stunned reach over the table and punch him in the mouth.

Re: Caught Cheating--What to do?
 

I'm going to combine a few ideas with one of my own. First, type and print out what you think will happen the first hand after the break. Have this in your pocket. Then, shove PF. This will probably prevent him from playing the hand, but if he calls and sucks out you can pull out the paper with you theory typed on it and ask him if it's just a wierd coincidence that it keeps happening.

Re: Caught Cheating--What to do?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm going to combine a few ideas with one of my own. First, type and print out what you think will happen the first hand after the break. Have this in your pocket. Then, shove PF. This will probably prevent him from playing the hand, but if he calls and sucks out you can pull out the paper with you theory typed on it and ask him if it's just a wierd coincidence that it keeps happening.

[/ QUOTE ]
I love the shove aspect of this.
nh

Re: Caught Cheating--What to do?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I like the idea of sitting in the 3 seat and folding on the flop with the nuts (nuts at the time, because obviously if the dealer is cheating he'll turn or river a better hand) and see what his reaction is. If he's stunned reach over the table and punch him in the mouth.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont know about everybody else, but I would be stunned if this happened, cheating or not. It would seem pretty ridiculous actually.

EDIT: very interesting thread though.

Re: Caught Cheating--What to do?
 

If the dealer peeps at cards that are getting folded, then he should be called on it right away. The fact that player 3 always gets a monster hand after the break and loses to the dealer, its hard to call. Can't convicted a guy over that. Mention your concerns to another player you trust and watch the dealer carefully.

Re: Caught Cheating--What to do?
 

[ QUOTE ]
nuts at the time, because obviously if the dealer is cheating he'll turn or river a better hand

[/ QUOTE ]

[nit]
This qualification doesn't need to be made. The term "nuts" means the best possible hand AT THAT TIME. So 99 on a 952 flop is the nuts even though it will never be the nuts on the river.

[/nit]

Re: Caught Cheating--What to do?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
nuts at the time, because obviously if the dealer is cheating he'll turn or river a better hand

[/ QUOTE ]

[nit]
This qualification doesn't need to be made. The term "nuts" means the best possible hand AT THAT TIME. So 99 on a 952 flop is the nuts even though it will never be the nuts on the river.

[/nit]

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't win, if I say just the nuts than somebody is going to say "well its not the nuts because the turn and river may make a better hand" and then if I say nuts at the time I get that response so I can't win either way. I run bad at poker and apparently I run bad at 2+2. It's a good thing I run good at life or I'd be in trouble.

Re: Caught Cheating--What to do?
 

None of these suggestions will help if a marked deck is being used against you.

And if the deck is marked, you do not know who rung it in .... nor do you have to deal to gain an edge.

To detect most marked cards, I suggest using the "Gamblers Riffle Test".

Enjoy !

Re: Caught Cheating--What to do?
 

simple: DON'T PLAY IN THIS GAME...If you do, you deserve to loser whatever money goes to the dealer...

Re: Caught Cheating--What to do?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I can't win, if I say just the nuts than somebody is going to say "well its not the nuts because the turn and river may make a better hand"

[/ QUOTE ]They would be wrong, fwiw. I'm not trying to bust your chops; just trying to clarify a definition for you, since obviously someone has tried to "clarify" it for you before incorrectly.

Re: Caught Cheating--What to do?
 

Try and make side bets with people on dealer beating No.3 whenever they are in a hand together.

Do it as many times as possible, when people ask how you knew, tell them. Then drag the dealer outside and beat the living daylights out of him.

Re: Caught Cheating--What to do?
 

After the turn try to make side bets that the river pairs the board, or the river flushes, etc. That will at least bring attention to the guy's hand.

edit: guess I should read the whole thread

Re: Caught Cheating--What to do?
 

Do you know the dealer or the guy who runs the game? If not, you could be setting yourself up for a beat down if you start accusing the owner's guy.

Just don't play there anymore.