Live KQ Turn Bluff with Air
 

Weak-Tight/Weak-Passive live 10 game at Foxwoods

Villian is live TAGy. That is to say, he doesn't cold call too much and doesn't make the worst possible play on every street. He is losing and seems to be a folding tilter rather than a go apeshit on the turn with bad hand values tilter. He's made comments about having to fold top pair 5 times that day in HU pots.

My image is super nitty. I've only shown down strong winners or mucked to the nuts so far.

Someone limps. I raise with KQo two off UTG. Villian Cold Calls. Some typical/passive guy cold calls. The BB calls.

Flop: 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]4

I bet. Villian Calls. Everyone else folds.

Turn:2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

I bet. Villian Raises. I Think for a Second and Threebet planning to c/f the river if he calls unless I spike a K or Q.

Is this horrible?

Re: Live KQ Turn Bluff with Air
 

Without a read, this sounds terrible to me. With your read, perhaps not. What pocket pairs do you expect he might lay down? What pocket pairs would he have 3 bet pre-flop? Also, is AK currently still in his range? I'd think he'd 3-bet that preflop, but I've seen stranger things.

You're asking him to fold for 1 big bet in a pot that currently contains 11. That is asking a lot [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Live KQ Turn Bluff with Air
 

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Without a read, this sounds terrible to me. With your read, perhaps not. What pocket pairs do you expect he might lay down? What pocket pairs would he have 3 bet pre-flop? Also, is AK currently still in his range? I'd think he'd 3-bet that preflop, but I've seen stranger things.

You're asking him to fold for 1 big bet in a pot that currently contains 11. That is asking a lot [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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I think there is a signifigant (25-40%) chance he'll fold every PP in his range except 77. He probably threebets with JJ+ and AK. He range preflop is probably AJ-AQ, ATs-AQs, KQ, KQs, and 77-TT. He has 77-TT a fairly large percentage of the time when he raises the turn. I'd never do this without a read as even in this very specialized situation (basically the best possible conditions), I'm not sure its right.

Re: Live KQ Turn Bluff with Air
 

cant say i've ever done this but against villains range sounds reasonable.

he either has 77 and is capping the turn (which you fold) or he's folding. and theres a lot more ways for him not to have 77 then there are for him to have 77.

and as for logic behind villains turn raise, it sure looks to me like he's value raising/free showdowning (and i bet villain doesnt know which) something like 66-TT.

Re: Live KQ Turn Bluff with Air
 

btw JJH whats your play if you had AA/KK in this spot? 3 bet the turn, or call and donk all rivers?

Re: Live KQ Turn Bluff with Air
 

Given your read, this looks like a good play to me. However, I wouldn't be shocked if he calls you down with some of those pocket pairs. It's going to be 2 big bets to win 12, so he might go for it.

Re: Live KQ Turn Bluff with Air
 

If he's on tight and/or passive tilt and isn't the type to 'go apeshit on the turn with bad hand values', then I would imagine that he would raise 88-TT on the flop. I think you are looking at 77, 22 or a 4 most of the time here.

Re: Live KQ Turn Bluff with Air
 

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Given your read, this looks like a good play to me. However, I wouldn't be shocked if he calls you down with some of those pocket pairs. It's going to be 2 big bets to win 12, so he might go for it.

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He's made comments about having to fold top pair 5 times that day in HU pots



i doubt hes calling.

Re: Live KQ Turn Bluff with Air
 

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btw JJH whats your play if you had AA/KK in this spot? 3 bet the turn, or call and donk all rivers?

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Against this villian calling turn and donking every river is expert with AA-JJ I think. Its not something i do often though.

Re: Live KQ Turn Bluff with Air
 

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If he's on tight and/or passive tilt and isn't the type to 'go apeshit on the turn with bad hand values', then I would imagine that he would raise 88-TT on the flop. I think you are looking at 77, 22 or a 4 most of the time here.

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Honestly, given my read, he should never have 22 or a hand that contains a 4. Let's handread a bit here. I think this particular player is more likely to raise 77 on the flop when fishy passive players are more likely to call and tie themselves to the pot. When someone with TAGy tendencies calls a flop with passive players left to act then raises the turn, I'm less likely to give them credit for a big hand than some kind of free showdown play with a weaker made hand.

Re: Live KQ Turn Bluff with Air
 

I would've probably checked this flop. Maybe it's instinctive to make a c-bet on this board, but do you really expect the entire field to fold to a flop bet here? You should probably give them credit for having something at this point. I would've bet the flop w/any PP, because then I'm betting to protect my hand. I'm surprised to see you 3-bet here, because I think this is an easy fold situation at the first sign of aggression. After all, let's face it - you have a marginal EP hand to begin with, your raise attracted way too many callers, and this ugly board left your overs UI and likely improved someone else's hand. You're actually betting someone else's hand for value here...

Re: Live KQ Turn Bluff with Air
 

This hand was so read-based that it's terrible unless you were there. Just go ahead and do it and don't make a post about it.

Re: Live KQ Turn Bluff with Air
 

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This hand was so read-based that it's terrible unless you were there. Just go ahead and do it and don't make a post about it.

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Meh. That's true. Nice to meet you. How'd the 30/60 game end up?

Re: Live KQ Turn Bluff with Air
 

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This hand was so read-based that it's terrible unless you were there. Just go ahead and do it and don't make a post about it.

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Meh. That's true. Nice to meet you. How'd the 30/60 game end up?

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I like both quotes and acknowledge

Re: Live KQ Turn Bluff with Air
 

why not try to checkraise the turn? seems like it would be cheaper. it's not like getting a free card is the worst thing that could happen to you.

btw, i think you see 77 here quite a bit. if he can fold 88-TT it's more reasonable, but those hands are overpairs(not top pair as he has been folding all night).

Re: Live KQ Turn Bluff with Air
 

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why not try to checkraise the turn? seems like it would be cheaper. it's not like getting a free card is the worst thing that could happen to you.

btw, i think you see 77 here quite a bit. if he can fold 88-TT it's more reasonable, but those hands are overpairs(not top pair as he has been folding all night).

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When he calls the flop, unimproved overcards are a large part of his range. He's folding most of these to a second barel.

Re: Live KQ Turn Bluff with Air
 

After the turn 3-bet. I would also bet any A or J on river as possible bluff outs.

Re: Live KQ Turn Bluff with Air
 

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This hand was so read-based that it's terrible unless you were there. Just go ahead and do it and don't make a post about it.

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Meh. That's true. Nice to meet you. How'd the 30/60 game end up?

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Nice meeting you. And don't get me wrong, that was a baller play that was way better than my river bluff. It's just that it'll confuse the SSHEers here because that play is so unorthodox.

I finished +1900 at the 30 over 3 hrs of play. Ship it crucial.

Re: Live KQ Turn Bluff with Air
 

river c/r bluffs are always balla. amirite?

Re: Live KQ Turn Bluff with Air
 

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river c/r bluffs are always balla. amirite?

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i had position, so i was less balla. =/

Re: Live KQ Turn Bluff with Air
 

JJ,
Was this Sunday morning/ afternoon? Were you in the 4 seat? If so, what seat was villain in? I was playing with you on Sunday, and with your image, given your description of villain (if it's who I think it is), your play is fine.

This sort of thing is ridiculously situational, but at that table, with your image, I think this sort of play is absolutely fine.

Re: Live KQ Turn Bluff with Air
 

I wasn't there til Monday afternoon/evening... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] This was the main game. I was in the four seat for a bit. Villain was guy in black sox cap, young guy, seemed to know everyone... cold called a bit too much when he should prolly 3bet, pretty solid other than that... I also told him i had 77 after the hand.

Re: Live KQ Turn Bluff with Air
 

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I wasn't there til Monday afternoon/evening... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] This was the main game. I was in the four seat for a bit. Villain was guy in black sox cap, young guy, seemed to know everyone... cold called a bit too much when he should prolly 3bet, pretty solid other than that... I also told him i had 77 after the hand.

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Sorry, must have been another JJ-- who was playing the 10/20 Sunday, was RIDICULOUSLY tight, and for him, this play would have absolutely worked.

Sorry-- have no clue on this particular hand- I think a play like this is all about the specific player and there is too much info to get across in a post to decide if this is "good" or "bad". Hope to see you at the tables in the future though.

Re: Live KQ Turn Bluff with Air
 

wow a 3ball bluff thread in SS... Crazy! Unless you are a deadeye hand reader just fold it like its hot, in fact in these small games with a 100 limpers id just chk that flop.

Seriously.

JT

Re: Live KQ Turn Bluff with Air
 

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wow a 3ball bluff thread in SS... Crazy! Unless you are a deadeye hand reader just fold it like its hot, in fact in these small games with a 100 limpers id just chk that flop.

Seriously.

JT

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checking that flop would be lighting money on fire. Like lol bad.