NLCASH $200, deepstacked with TP2K
 

Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $1/$2 Blinds - 2 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

Hero (BB): $575.00
SB: $448.00

Preflop: Hero is dealt A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">SB raises to $6.00</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $24.00</font>, <font color="red">SB raises to $66.00</font>, Hero calls $42.00

Flop: ($132) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks, <font color="red">SB bets $91.00</font>, Hero calls $91.00

Turn: ($314) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks, SB checks

River: ($314) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks, <font color="red">SB bets all-in for $291.00</font>


WTF IS GOING ON HERE?!?!?!

Re: NLCASH $200, deepstacked with TP2K
 

Player read?

Assuming he's a decent player, why would he check the turn behind with a good hand on a fairly draw-heavy board? Not for pot control with AK, because he then shoves a blank river.

What is he putting you on? You peel the flop, so you could have JJ/QQ/AQ and maybe KK/AK, despite no pre-flop 5bet. You check turn AND river, so he might be shoving KK/QQ/JJ in hopes of taking you off AQ or a better pocket pair than his. I think his turn check is too weak to have AK or better on this board.

I'm not too experienced with HU over 100bb deep, but I think I call here and see a pocket pair a lot of the time.

Re: NLCASH $200, deepstacked with TP2K
 

Villain Reads: Fairly solid. He has not done anything bluffy in the duration of the match.

I used up every last second of my timebank. I should have probably flipped a coin.

Timing Tells: He instachecked behind on turn, and it took 1 second (slightly more than insta) for him to push on the river.

Re: NLCASH $200, deepstacked with TP2K
 

Im hardly ever folding AQ in a reraised pot on this board.. especially with this weird line makes it a must call

Re: NLCASH $200, deepstacked with TP2K
 

raze - I don't think villain is worried about draws hitting, so I don't think the turn check necessarily means he's more likely to be weak.

I feel like there's lots of hands he could totally play this way: KK/AA/TT/JJ/QQ all come to mind really. AK doesn't make a ton of sense really. I don't know what of those hands he 4bets though. Your hand doesn't look to be a boat b/c you checked the turn and river, so I feel like this is a call. Had you played any 4bet pots yet? I know we're really deep here, and part of me thinks his most likely hand is AA, but I feel like this is a call. It's close imo.

Re: NLCASH $200, deepstacked with TP2K
 

did u call him?

I would really like to see what he had.

Re: NLCASH $200, deepstacked with TP2K
 

I think this is a fold but a close one. I think villain checks behind with hands that can't beat AQ.

(sometimes I call it, its not a clear decision IMO)

Re: NLCASH $200, deepstacked with TP2K
 

He shoved over my 4bet pf with QQ when we had 1.5 buy-ins on the table, I obv snap called with AA and it held. He used almost all of his timer before shoving.

I did not call, but I'm thinking this is not a better hand more than 33% of the time and is therefore a call.

Re: NLCASH $200, deepstacked with TP2K
 

Posters who are saying this is a pp : what pp's would villain 4-bet pf then turn into a bluff on the river

Re: NLCASH $200, deepstacked with TP2K
 

[ QUOTE ]
raze - I don't think villain is worried about draws hitting, so I don't think the turn check necessarily means he's more likely to be weak.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hear that

Problem is, he can't have better than a set, and I think checking behind on the turn super-deep instead of betting for huge value with a flush draw and a possible gutshot on the board is bad and careless. So if we read Villain to make careless, dangerous plays with very strong hands 250bb's deep, then yea his range is going to be a lot stronger on the river [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

On the other hand, if he does have AA (despite there being only the A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] left in the deck), a turn check-behind could induce a very big bluff on the river, or a very loose call once Villain shoves...

Re: NLCASH $200, deepstacked with TP2K
 

[ QUOTE ]
Posters who are saying this is a pp : what pp's would villain 4-bet pf then turn into a bluff on the river

[/ QUOTE ]

Kings, Queens and Jacks. Villain won't 4-bet these PF 225bb deep?

Re: NLCASH $200, deepstacked with TP2K
 

I'm not saying he won't because he probably would. I'm saying a villain who hasn't shown any bluffs is going to check these types of hands behind almost always

Re: NLCASH $200, deepstacked with TP2K
 

I think this is definately a call. He clearly has ak/tt here sometimes, but i think ur ahead of his range enough here to make it a call. The other question tho is can this opponent turn a big pair into a bluff here? Because many 1/2 opponents won't do that and are fine with taking a showdown. I still probably call tho.

Re: NLCASH $200, deepstacked with TP2K
 

Very true kolo... he would probably check Kings, but if he shoves with say JJ or QQ, he could definitely expect OP to fold a lot of better hands like QQ, KK, and some Aces (basically Hero's entire range except maybe AK).

Re: NLCASH $200, deepstacked with TP2K
 

um, at lower stakes this could be a semi-bluff with a missed NFD weak ace. (i.e. AJd maybe ATd if he plays the preflop betting that way with those hands) i'm guessing this isn't a possibility b/c the opponent is as you say not prone to bluffs and if he's tight prob isn't 4 betting much in the way of suited aces besides AK and AQ, maybe AJ depending on the player. can one of the more senior players explain if this reasoning is right and if not why a missed NFD isn't a possibility in the opponent's hand range. thank you.

Re: NLCASH $200, deepstacked with TP2K
 

What if we had AK?

I would just about instacall.

Some certain people have suggested AK = AQ. I couldn't disagree more.

Thoughts?

Re: NLCASH $200, deepstacked with TP2K
 

[ QUOTE ]
What if we had AK?

I would just about instacall.

Thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

I totally agree. The only 2 possible hands beating us are AA and AK IMO. They combine for 9 two-card combinations... and AK holds 8 of those 9. Less combos still, mind you, if we actually held AK.

Re: NLCASH $200, deepstacked with TP2K
 

[ QUOTE ]
um, at lower stakes this could be a semi-bluff with a missed NFD weak ace...

if not why a missed NFD isn't a possibility in the opponent's hand range. thank you.

[/ QUOTE ]


you said so yourself:


[ QUOTE ]

if he's tight prob isn't 4 betting much in the way of suited aces besides AK and AQ

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: NLCASH $200, deepstacked with TP2K
 

How has the match been going preflop? How much have you 3-bet him? I've played quite a bit of 1/2 hu, and very few opponents are willing to make big river bluffs when playing this deep. When it gets deep, most opponents become very cautious. Now it's your job to decide if he's one of those few people willing to make the big bluff.

From his 4 bet preflop, we have to think he has a hand, and as said earlier at this level, most people are not willing to turn hands with some showdown value into bluffs.

I think this almost has to be AK. I guess I probably fold here, but it is indeed a very tough hand, just shows why you don't want to allow yourself to get into these situations out of position this deep. Position is premium, and when it gets deep, exponentially so. As nitty as it sounds, this deep, I think you probably need to fold AQ to his 4-bet preflop, unless there is some preflop history of 3 and 4 betting.

Re: NLCASH $200, deepstacked with TP2K
 

[ QUOTE ]
... and it took 1 second (slightly more than insta) ...

[/ QUOTE ]
This smells like a monster

Re: NLCASH $200, deepstacked with TP2K
 

I think this is more likely to be the nuts (AK+) or a total whiff than some of the hands people have suggested.

Keep in mind that the turn check cannot serve as pot control since there's only one pot-sized bet left.

Re: NLCASH $200, deepstacked with TP2K
 

are there more 4b pots you've played where he's taken a similar line on the turn and you've taken it away?

i think this is a fold, AK is likely a call. this is definetly a fold if the answer above is a yes.

Re: NLCASH $200, deepstacked with TP2K
 

I had K2o, i get really really bored playing 1/2 and do retarded [censored] a lot of the time because I don't care about the money. If you are playing against me at 1/2 or 2/4 and I do something that makes no sense you should call because i'm probably tilting or very bored.

Re: NLCASH $200, deepstacked with TP2K
 

[ QUOTE ]
did u call him?

I would really like to see what he had.

[/ QUOTE ]
pay2see surrr.

- i like to think he has a suited connector here, probably AK, unless you think he's spastic enough to have top set.

Re: NLCASH $200, deepstacked with TP2K
 

Grunch,
Calling the initial 4bet will always put you in a terrible spot postflop unless you are a planning on running a decent amount of bluffs postflop which would mean villain has a huge 4bet range here (I dunno if you were). 90% of the time Im just going to 5bet or fold this preflop unless I think I can get a lot of credit by cold calling the 4bet.

Re: NLCASH $200, deepstacked with TP2K
 

His play is confusing enough to warrant a call . You just need to win around 33% of the time to show a profit . Also , there is a possibility that he may have the same hand as yours since there are 8 AK hands and 6 AQ hands which isn't much of a difference .
The call pre-flop is questionable and probably worth a fold but that's besides the point .

Re: NLCASH $200, deepstacked with TP2K
 

[ QUOTE ]

The call pre-flop is questionable and probably worth a fold but that's besides the point .

[/ QUOTE ]

Can't fold, hand too strong. Deep enough to call instead of push.

Re: NLCASH $200, deepstacked with TP2K
 

I still think this is a call.

I ended up playing this guy later, short session, he took a few buy-ins off me...after playing him I think this is a call even more than I already did. I was like 70/30 call but I think it's more like 90/10.

Re: NLCASH $200, deepstacked with TP2K
 

Look at it from the villain's perspective. Unless you are a really trappy player he has a pretty easy shove no matter his holdings, considering the action.

Re: NLCASH $200, deepstacked with TP2K
 

I think after you didn't have the odds to call the 4-bet if you could possibly fold here. Your hand looks a lot like KK or QQ and if its a supped up match I could see a very good or very spewy villian turning jj into a bluff here. I really think this is either a fold preflop or a call here. I would have just pushed myself on the flop hoping for a call from A-rag or KK/QQ making a hero call. You probably aren't getting any more value on later streets anyway, and I think the flop is your best shot, and you don't allow for 2-6 outers to hit. Then again, I push the flop a lot in re-raised pots.

Re: NLCASH $200, deepstacked with TP2K
 

Tempest was indeed the villain btw.

A few things... his 4bet is deliberately less than pot (where it should be more since we are this deep and he's fairly solid).

I was 95% sure he knew I had an ace here and even typed so in chat after his push.