Calling the floor to replace a misdealt turn card?
 

I'm in an excellent Foxwoods 5-10 kill game, filled with your usual, braindead calling stations, although I'm still smarting from a $400 pot I lost against the calling station fish to my right who went six bets with me on the turn in a kill pot when I had the nut flush on the turn, only to have him snatch it away when the board paired and his turned set became a boat.

FWIW, I can't tell if this guy is just clueless and/or an angleshooter, since in that prior hand he clearly string-raised me on the fifth bet...although being the gentlemen I am I allowed it so that I could six bet him [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]. In addition, I have to remind him to post his blinds EVERY ORBIT, which may have been partially due to his tendency to always take off his reading glasses after looking at his cards.

In the hand in question, I overlimp from MP with A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], and six or seven players see the following flop:

A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

A couple of players check, I bet, a soft-spoken, non-tricky calling station calls, and it's folded around to the clueless fish on my right. Of course, I have to remind him it's his turn to act, and he picks up both his chips and his cards, and again slips into la-la land. As I'm looking at the fish, waiting for him to act, I see out of the corner of my eye that the young, female dealer has burned and turning the following:

7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

As this happens I shout "Wait!, he hasn't acted," after which the fish smiles and tosses his hand, saying "It's not good now."

I say "Call the floor," and pandemonium breaks out, as the collective gaggle of retards start making comments like:

"Why, he's already folded?"
"What's going on?"
"It's too late."

I again say:

"Call the floor."

The dealer looks at me and says "You call the floor."

I say "Excuse me?"

She says "You can call the floor."

Consequently, I bellow "FLOOR!!!"

Does anyone do anything differently here? And does it matter if the turn card was instead a brick which might not have just killed my hand?

Re: Calling the floor to replace a misdealt turn card?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone do anything differently here?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. This is, unfortunately, typical Foxwoods dealer nonsense. When a player asks for the floor the dealer should call for the floor. When the floor arrives I would explain the burn/turn situation only. I would talk to the floor when I went on break about the dealer attitude.

On a side note; I can't wait until Mohegan Sun opens the card room. I think I will end every Foxwoods post with that from now until it opens. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Calling the floor to replace a misdealt turn card?
 

Hmm. Are they going to give him his hand back? Is he going to bother to play it? Since the damage is already done to the player whom this affects, what's wrong with keeping it how it was going to be anyway?

This is of course just part of the academic discussion of whether it matters or not. Of course you call the floor over. The dealer should have stopped all action and made it clear that the card was not going to play before.

But, again, since she didn't and if his hand won't become live again, does it matter any more?

Re: Calling the floor to replace a misdealt turn card?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hmm. Are they going to give him his hand back? Is he going to bother to play it? Since the damage is already done to the player whom this affects, what's wrong with keeping it how it was going to be anyway?

This is of course just part of the academic discussion of whether it matters or not. Of course you call the floor over. The dealer should have stopped all action and made it clear that the card was not going to play before.

But, again, since she didn't and if his hand won't become live again, does it matter any more?

[/ QUOTE ]

You mean, aside from the fact that the 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] may have just killed my hand...

Re: Calling the floor to replace a misdealt turn card?
 

Rules are rules.
They should be applied consistently.
If I held K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] , I would expect the 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] would not play.

Re: Calling the floor to replace a misdealt turn card?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm in an excellent Foxwoods 5-10 kill game, filled with your usual, braindead calling stations, although I'm still smarting from a $400 pot I lost against the calling station fish to my right who went six bets with me on the turn in a kill pot when I had the nut flush on the turn, only to have him snatch it away when the board paired and his turned set became a boat.

FWIW, I can't tell if this guy is just clueless and/or an angleshooter, since in that prior hand he clearly string-raised me on the fifth bet...although being the gentlemen I am I allowed it so that I could six bet him [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]. In addition, I have to remind him to post his blinds EVERY ORBIT, which may have been partially due to his tendency to always take off his reading glasses after looking at his cards.

In the hand in question, I overlimp from MP with A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], and six or seven players see the following flop:

A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

A couple of players check, I bet, a soft-spoken, non-tricky calling station calls, and it's folded around to the clueless fish on my right. Of course, I have to remind him it's his turn to act, and he picks up both his chips and his cards, and again slips into la-la land. As I'm looking at the fish, waiting for him to act, I see out of the corner of my eye that the young, female dealer has burned and turning the following:

7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

As this happens I shout "Wait!, he hasn't acted," after which the fish smiles and tosses his hand, saying "It's not good now."

I say "Call the floor," and pandemonium breaks out, as the collective gaggle of retards start making comments like:

"Why, he's already folded?"
"What's going on?"
"It's too late."

I again say:

"Call the floor."

The dealer looks at me and says "You call the floor."

I say "Excuse me?"

She says "You can call the floor."

Consequently, I bellow "FLOOR!!!"

Does anyone do anything differently here? And does it matter if the turn card was instead a brick which might not have just killed my hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

Your line was correct.

Re: Calling the floor to replace a misdealt turn card?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Rules are rules.
They should be applied consistently.
If I held K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] , I would expect the 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] would not play.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree.

Plus when a spade comes on the turn your bet looks like a bluff.

Re: Calling the floor to replace a misdealt turn card?
 

I call for the floor, and do nothing until a floor arrives.

Re: Calling the floor to replace a misdealt turn card?
 

[ QUOTE ]
But, again, since she didn't and if his hand won't become live again, does it matter any more?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, indeed it does. Fish wasn't entitled to see the real turn card before making his decision to muck. Because the dealer lost control of the game and because he acted impulsively, he mucked stupidly. But if the illegitimate card stands, he didn't muck stupidly; he made a rational play with more information than he was entitled to.

It's a very standard procedure, and I agree with Angus -- even if I held the nut flush draw, I'd want to see it applied correctly for the good of the game. Angle shooting corrodes the game far beyond the value of one unlucky turn card.

Fish does has a bit of a beef that the dealer should have explained what was happening, though. Sounds like Foxwoods dealers haven't gotten any better. Playing in Tunica only reinforces my perception of how bad most (not all) are at FW.

Re: Calling the floor to replace a misdealt turn card?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I call for the floor, and do nothing until a floor arrives.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Calling the floor to replace a misdealt turn card?
 

Commerce does very few things consistently, but in this area I have ALWAYS seen:

1) dealer calls the floor (and ignores what anyone at the table is saying)
2) on explaining that the turn card was exposed too early before all the action closed, the card is put aside and action is completed on the flop.
3) A new turn card is exposed with a betting round.
4) The bad turn card is returned to the live portion of the deck which is shuffled.
5) A river card is exposed and I've seen the prior bad turn card return to the board on the river. Destiny.

I've never seen a dealer even hesitate to call the floor in this kind of situation. Maybe Foxwoods docks your dealers for making this kind of mistake.

Re: Calling the floor to replace a misdealt turn card?
 

Absolutely, call the floor put the turn back in the deck, shuffle then let people finish the betting from the flop. Then burn and turn. What was the decision from the floor?

Re: Calling the floor to replace a misdealt turn card?
 

[ QUOTE ]
What was the decision from the floor?

[/ QUOTE ]

The correct one, I assume, as the dealer was instructed to:

1) Place aside the 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img],
2) Burn and turn the next card, which would have been the river,
3) [player action]
4) Shuffle the 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] back into the stub,
5) Turn a new turn card (I can't remember if there was a burn before this final card).

Re: Calling the floor to replace a misdealt turn card?
 

Since he was the last player to act, it can make it a little more gray of an area and seem like a waste of time to call the floor. However, for consistency, I'd call the floor and try to get a new turn card.

[ QUOTE ]
And does it matter if the turn card was instead a brick which might not have just killed my hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

Regardless of what the turn card was, even if it was a brick or an A or 3.

[ QUOTE ]
The dealer looks at me and says "You call the floor."

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow. That'd be something else I'd be asking the floor about.

b

Re: Calling the floor to replace a misdealt turn card?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What was the decision from the floor?

[/ QUOTE ]

The correct one, I assume, as the dealer was instructed to:

1) Place aside the 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img],
2) Burn and turn the next card, which would have been the river,
3) [player action]
4) Shuffle the 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] back into the stub,
5) Turn a new turn card (I can't remember if there was a burn before this final card).

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep. No burn when they bring the river card. Good decision. If anything, just for sake of consistency.

Funny thing is, if someone would've won the hand on the turn and ended up now losing they'd probably blame you for it when it was really the morons fault this situation came up. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

b

Re: Calling the floor to replace a misdealt turn card?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Commerce does very few things consistently, but in this area I have ALWAYS seen:

1) dealer calls the floor (and ignores what anyone at the table is saying)
2) on explaining that the turn card was exposed too early before all the action closed, the card is put aside and action is completed on the flop.
3) A new turn card is exposed with a betting round.
4) The bad turn card is returned to the live portion of the deck which is shuffled.
5) A river card is exposed and I've seen the prior bad turn card return to the board on the river. Destiny.

I've never seen a dealer even hesitate to call the floor in this kind of situation. Maybe Foxwoods docks your dealers for making this kind of mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]

Shouldn't steps 4 and 3 be reversed?

It looks like chess says this is how it was handled as well but it doesn't make sense to me that the turn card not be shuffled back into the deck since IMO it is a live card that should have a chance to hit the turn again.

Is this done to make sure the "river card" still winds up on the board or something? That seems dumb since no one knows what the river card is and its irrelevant whereas removing the 7s from the deck while dealing the turn actually affects the hand.

Re: Calling the floor to replace a misdealt turn card?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Commerce does very few things consistently, but in this area I have ALWAYS seen:

1) dealer calls the floor (and ignores what anyone at the table is saying)
2) on explaining that the turn card was exposed too early before all the action closed, the card is put aside and action is completed on the flop.
3) A new turn card is exposed with a betting round.
4) The bad turn card is returned to the live portion of the deck which is shuffled.
5) A river card is exposed and I've seen the prior bad turn card return to the board on the river. Destiny.

I've never seen a dealer even hesitate to call the floor in this kind of situation. Maybe Foxwoods docks your dealers for making this kind of mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]

Shouldn't steps 4 and 3 be reversed?

It looks like chess says this is how it was handled as well but it doesn't make sense to me that the turn card not be shuffled back into the deck since IMO it is a live card that should have a chance to hit the turn again.

Is this done to make sure the "river card" still winds up on the board or something?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes--in fact, the floorman said, as he was explaining the procedure to the dealer and the rest of the table, "O.K., first burn and turn what would have been the river..."

Re: Calling the floor to replace a misdealt turn card?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What was the decision from the floor?

[/ QUOTE ]

The correct one, I assume, as the dealer was instructed to:

1) Place aside the 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img],
2) Burn and turn the next card, which would have been the river,
3) [player action]
4) Shuffle the 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] back into the stub,
5) Turn a new turn card (I can't remember if there was a burn before this final card).

[/ QUOTE ]

This just happened in a game I was playing over the weekend, and they did burn an additional card before the river was dealt, so there were 4 burn cards in the muck.

Re: Calling the floor to replace a misdealt turn card?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe Foxwoods docks your dealers for making this kind of mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hahaha... wait, you didn't mean that to be comical, did you?

Not to hijack, but there are probably already pages of threads of surly Foxwoods dealer stories. Once I let a slow dealer get the best of me. After I asked her to resolve all-ins only after dealing out the board, she decided to slow down the action to punish me. I called her a bitch (not a reaction I'm proud of, no matter how bad she was), so the floor with a wink said, "I'm sorry, sir, you're going to have to leave this game." But lo and behold, he just happened to seat me in another game that had just come open, and out of earshot of the dealer basically acknowledged that she wasn't a very good one.

Actually I'll stick up for most FW management. They know several of their dealers suck. They just can't do anything about it.

All of this was current as of 2006, and it sounds like not much has changed.

Re: Calling the floor to replace a misdealt turn card?
 

[ QUOTE ]
This just happened in a game I was playing over the weekend, and they did burn an additional card before the river was dealt, so there were 4 burn cards in the muck.

[/ QUOTE ]
They did it incorrectly then.

As stated before -- you burn and turn the river as the new turn. Then you shuffle the 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] back into the remaining deck and deal the river with no burn. You have already burned for the turn and river by this point and the idea is that the 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] has the same chance to come on the river as any other card.

Re: Calling the floor to replace a misdealt turn card?
 

[ QUOTE ]
the idea is that the 7 has the same chance to come on the river as any other card.

[/ QUOTE ]

The 7 of spades has a better chance of coming than any other card. Assume a 10 player game, there are are 46 unknown cards on the river so a random card has a 1/46 chance of coming. Since the 7 of spades is known to be in the stub it has a 1/25 chance of coming on the river. In Omaha it has a 1/5 chance of coming on the river (in a 10 handed game).

Re: Calling the floor to replace a misdealt turn card?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Then you shuffle the 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] back into the remaining deck and deal the river with no burn. You have already burned for the turn and river by this point and the idea is that the 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] has the same chance to come on the river as any other card.

[/ QUOTE ]
How does burning or not burning on the river after the 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] went back into the deck have any effect on the odds of it coming out? Unless I'm misunderstanding you, the burn doesn't affect the odds at all, you could burn one card or 10 (the 7 could be burnt, could be right below the burn, could be on the bottom of the deck, doesn't matter odds-wise), the 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] is one of those cards and has a 1 in however many cards are left in the deck chance of coming out on the river.

That said I've had this happen at Foxwoods before and it was handled the same way (river becomes turn, shuffle original turn back in, no river burn). It was pretty crappy for me as the would-have-been turn card gave me TPTK and 4 to the nut flush [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: Calling the floor to replace a misdealt turn card?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Is this done to make sure the "river card" still winds up on the board or something? That seems dumb since no one knows what the river card is and its irrelevant whereas removing the 7s from the deck while dealing the turn actually affects the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Heh heh. You've played in a casino, right. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Calling the floor to replace a misdealt turn card?
 

Would you have made the same type of fuss if the turn was the A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]?

Re: Calling the floor to replace a misdealt turn card?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But, again, since she didn't and if his hand won't become live again, does it matter any more?

[/ QUOTE ]

You mean, aside from the fact that the 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] may have just killed my hand...

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, then, are you willing to give the hand back to the person who mucked? Because that would be why it matters at all, right? To be clear, I agree you should call the floor here, but if the mucking player's hand will still be dead, isn't calling for a new card a bit of an angle-shoot? I'm frankly not sure on this, so I'm not arguing, just putting forth the question. This is again assuming that the mucking player's hand will still be mucked regardless of the decision.

Re: Calling the floor to replace a misdealt turn card?
 

Excuse me, please, but how do you get the card pips in the posts when you talk about a hand? Thanks.

Re: Calling the floor to replace a misdealt turn card?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yes--in fact, the floorman said, as he was explaining the procedure to the dealer and the rest of the table, "O.K., first burn and turn what would have been the river..."


[/ QUOTE ]

Am I alone in finding this justification highly illogical? Why are we making it impossible for the 7s to hit the turn?

Wouldn't it be unfair to a player with few outs, say a gutshot, if he hit one of them on the turn in a similar situation only to see one of his 4 outs (and the actual turn card) taken out of the deck for a street in the name of preserving a river card that is supposed to be completely random and unknown anyway?

Re: Calling the floor to replace a misdealt turn card?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If the mucking player's hand will still be dead, isn't calling for a new card a bit of an angle-shoot?

[/ QUOTE ]

The player who mucked thought that he was pulling an angle-shoot, I think, so I don't have any sympathy over the fact that he threw away his hand when faced with what he assumed was the turn card (without having called the flop bot).

But you raise an interesting point--is it an angle-shoot to invoke the rules, which by doing so will cause this bad card for me to go away?

Re: Calling the floor to replace a misdealt turn card?
 

[ QUOTE ]


But you raise an interesting point--is it an angle-shoot to invoke the rules, which by doing so will cause this bad card for me to go away?

[/ QUOTE ]

With a semi-competent dealer, there is no issue of "invoking the rules", since he would know them and follow them. Rules are not "optional".

Except, of course, the "string bet" rule.