hero call with mid pair in 3 bet pot
 

villain was about 25/20 standard lag. my image is the same if not laggier.

i cant really put him on many good hands. i dont think he has a set and if he does he prolly wouldnt overbet like this. i dont think he has a legit two pair (T8) or a deuce. so the hands he can be over betting are a pair of tens or an overpair.. but does he play AT/QQ/JJ this way? there are a quite a few draws out there.

Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $2/$4 Blinds - 5 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

Hero (SB): $649.00
BB: $245.00
UTG: $495.80
CO: $386.00
BTN: $406.90

Preflop: Hero is dealt 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 Players)
2 folds, <font color="red">BTN raises to $14.00</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $48.00</font>, BB folds, BTN calls $34.00

Flop: ($100) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks, <font color="red">BTN bets $76.00</font>, Hero calls $76.00

Turn: ($252) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks, <font color="red">BTN bets all-in for $282.90</font>, Hero

Re: hero call with mid pair in 3 bet pot
 

If you are going to 3bet this hand, you have to felt some % of the time. I generally give people credit the first time, but feel free to call. I can't be real bad.

Re: hero call with mid pair in 3 bet pot
 

Shoving into a 252 pot with 280 behind is not an overbet. There's absolutely no reason he can't have 22,88,TT,JJ-AA. Very dependant on game dynamic but I'm giving credit here normally.

Also even some of his weaker semibluffing hands have pretty good equity against you, whereas if you're behind you're drawing to 2 outs.

Re: hero call with mid pair in 3 bet pot
 

i'd like to have some kind of read on his postflop play but calling seems OK against a tricky LAG.

Re: hero call with mid pair in 3 bet pot
 

Definitely not an overbet. Even if he was shoving with more money it wouldn't be an overbet, especially in a 3bet pot. Double flush board at this point, and any bet he makes that's not a shove leaves him with an awkward stack remainder for the river.

Re: hero call with mid pair in 3 bet pot
 

Is c-c your standard line here when you 3-bet out of the blinds, or is it bet-fold? Curious whether you took this flop line b/c villain is a LAG.

Re: hero call with mid pair in 3 bet pot
 

i misread the first time. i thought you bet flop and chkd turn.

i'd be a bit more likely to fold the turn now.

Re: hero call with mid pair in 3 bet pot
 

The fact that the turn paired makes it a fold.

Re: hero call with mid pair in 3 bet pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
The fact that the turn paired makes it a fold.

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elaborate? do the extra 3 outs that i would have for two pair make it enough for it to go from a fold to a call?

Re: hero call with mid pair in 3 bet pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The fact that the turn paired makes it a fold.

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elaborate? do the extra 3 outs that i would have for two pair make it enough for it to go from a fold to a call?

[/ QUOTE ]
I think MATT111 mean that you should c/f because the 2 is such a bad card to double barrell in genereal(Against some thinking opponents it can be great)

Re: hero call with mid pair in 3 bet pot
 

Without a really good read this must be a easy fold. You are either drawing almost dead or just ahead by little.

Re: hero call with mid pair in 3 bet pot
 

I could see him do this with almost any pocket pair (some bluffs and some value bets obviously) and a lot of overcard draw combos. Not very helpful since I just named pretty much every hand he could have.

Anyway I would call this often. If I had any kind of read on him as being a good player or some history I might snap call. Nothing but datamined stats doesn't help me much. I think it's really close here and can't really decide what I'd do the first time without history.

Re: hero call with mid pair in 3 bet pot
 

i would fold

Re: hero call with mid pair in 3 bet pot
 

if someone is giving you so much action that you feel you want to call off your stack on the turn with a pair of 8s and 2 outs to improve, then maybe you don't need to be 3-betting him with 86s. i am not suggesting that i think 3-betting is necessarily wrong. but it shows an inconsistency in your thought process vs this guy.

Re: hero call with mid pair in 3 bet pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
The fact that the turn paired makes it a fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

i disagree. if anything, the turn pairing makes this a call.

Re: hero call with mid pair in 3 bet pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The fact that the turn paired makes it a fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

i disagree. if anything, the turn pairing makes this a call.

[/ QUOTE ]


hmm no...

Re: hero call with mid pair in 3 bet pot
 

Why? Villain's hand range is smaller now

Re: hero call with mid pair in 3 bet pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why? Villain's hand range is smaller now

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since when does a deuce pairing dramatically alter someone's range in a 3-bet pot?

Re: hero call with mid pair in 3 bet pot
 

i was thinking 22 is no longer a possibility, and now we have information in deciding if our opponent would play a fullhouse like this.

Re: hero call with mid pair in 3 bet pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
i was thinking 22 is no longer a possibility, and now we have information in deciding if our opponent would play a fullhouse like this.

[/ QUOTE ]


how many people call 3-bets on the button with 22? it's a miniscule part of his range even if you know he calls any pocket pair preflop. and it went from 3 combos to 1, so it's not a dramatic change at all. what does matter is he went from max 5 outs if behind to max 2 outs

Re: hero call with mid pair in 3 bet pot
 

well i don't want to be argumentative, so i won't say anything else on the subject. i still think paired boards help me read my opponent.

that's a good pt about the outs tho

Re: hero call with mid pair in 3 bet pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
well i don't want to be argumentative, so i won't say anything else on the subject. i still think paired boards help me read my opponent.

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well there's a difference between arguing and debating, and i don't think we're arguing... but regarding paired boards, it's generally true that your opponent is less likely to have something, because there are less cards in the deck that hit the board. but the deuce is almost meaningless when looking at how his range changed.

Re: hero call with mid pair in 3 bet pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
well i don't want to be argumentative, so i won't say anything else on the subject. i still think paired boards help me read my opponent.

[/ QUOTE ]

well there's a difference between arguing and debating, and i don't think we're arguing... but regarding paired boards, it's generally true that your opponent is less likely to have something, because there are less cards in the deck that hit the board. but the deuce is almost meaningless when looking at how his range changed.

[/ QUOTE ]

id agree his range hasn't changed, but a turned deuce does make a call easier. Just based off the fact that draws are def. part of his range, and in the case of a drawing hand the deuce is one of the best turn cards we can see.

that being said, i dont know why people call this flop and expect that a LAG WON'T push most turns like 80% of the time. I probably give credit here and fold, unless hes a total monkey your at best against a draw that has decent equity against you, and he will show up with hands that have you dominated sometimes. but honestly a call isn't terrible, i just dont think anything super definitive can be decided without more knowledge of the game dynamic etc.