Legends of Poker 1K River Decision
 

Legends of Poker 1K

Villain is tight. Early in one hand, villain utg limped AK, 2 more limpers. BB raised to 1500 (200/100/25), villain called and folded on a 9 high flop.

I had 7000, villain had 7700.

200/100/25. I utg raise 600 with KdTd. (Table is tight, in the last 3 orbits, I utg raised with AA twice and A9o once, got no caller) utg+1 calls. SB (villain calls, BB completes)

4 players. Flop K97 (two hearts),
villain checks, BB (A tight player) bets 900, I call. utg folds, villain calls from sb.

3 players. Turn 6 (offsuit). villain checks, BB checks. I bet 1500. Villain raises to 3000. BB folds. I call. (???)

River Qd, villain moves all-in has me covered. Hero??

(what's villains' range, limp pf, checks call flop, mini c/r turn and pushes the river.)

Re: Legends of Poker 1K River Decision
 

Smells like a set of 7's or 9's, I fold the min raise on the turn (maybe even check the turn?), but then min raises always freak me out since everytime I've called them, I've been shown a monster.

Re: Legends of Poker 1K River Decision
 

fold the flop when a Tight player leads into PFR with 2 people still left to act including you.

Re: Legends of Poker 1K River Decision
 

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fold the flop when a Tight player leads into PFR with 2 people still left to act including you.

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Re: Legends of Poker 1K River Decision
 

i am a legend of poker

Re: Legends of Poker 1K River Decision
 

Fold the flop.
Check behind on the turn. Fold to the minraise
Fold the river...

I don't really love preflop either but it could be +ev as long as you are able to get away from your hand when beat.

The only hands that you are logically ahead of is JhTh and Ah8h.

I think that the flop and river decisions are more marginal than the turn which I think is a pretty straight forward check (and fold to the minraise)

Re: Legends of Poker 1K River Decision
 

[ QUOTE ]
Fold the flop.
Check behind on the turn. Fold to the minraise
Fold the river...

I don't really love preflop either but it could be +ev as long as you are able to get away from your hand when beat.

The only hands that you are logically ahead of is JhTh and Ah8h.

I think that the flop and river decisions are more marginal than the turn which I think is a pretty straight forward check (and fold to the minraise)

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Key - (don't think about our own cards, think about villain's action) why SB slow played a set on a drawing flop against 2 players?

utg raise is questionable, but defendable at this table, they rarely looked me up. This is the first time get called in past 4 utg raises...and the next 3s after this hand weren't looked up.

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On this hand, SB (villain) checked, BB led the flop, from his past plays/ his bet size on the flop and check the turn, I found he didn't have strong hand.

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OK,let's talk about SB's actions and my river decision.

On the turn, when SB mini-c/r to 3K, I put her on AK, two pair, a set of 9 and flush draw. But I strongly believed no one would slow play a set on the flop given two hearts on the board when one bet, one call, and pot is big enough for c/r with set/2p related to each player's stacksize. OK, back one step, she could slow play a set on the flop, but not on the turn, she would have crai the turn against two players with a set, not mini-raising giving flush draw correct odd to call. Therefore, (villain has) a flush draw making a semi-bluff at the turn and push non-heart river with remaining stack fits into villain's action/pattern.

At the river, I thought the push was pre-planned at the turn unless she plays a set very badly or has KQ,K6.
But KQ/K6 would have lead the flop to find out where she was.

Let's think from villain's side, I called the flop, bet/call the turn, if villain put me on a flush draw, why push the river? For value or want me to fold?

The bottomline, villain played like a flush draw on the flop and suddenly changed the line to a represent a set on the turn/river.

It's hard to call with all my chips. Ok, go with the read and I called, villain showed K4o. BB said he folded KT on the turn.

Everyone at the table put villain on a set of 9. But, I believe villain tried to reprsent a set at the turn after showing a flush draw on the flop. The flop/turn actions were not consistent. (However, turn/river actions were consistent enough to show river push is meaningless)

Re: Legends of Poker 1K River Decision
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fold the flop.
Check behind on the turn. Fold to the minraise
Fold the river...

I don't really love preflop either but it could be +ev as long as you are able to get away from your hand when beat.

The only hands that you are logically ahead of is JhTh and Ah8h.

I think that the flop and river decisions are more marginal than the turn which I think is a pretty straight forward check (and fold to the minraise)

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Key - (don't think about our own cards, think about villain's action) why SB slow played a set on a drawing flop against 2 players?

utg raise is questionable, but defendable at this table, they rarely looked me up. This is the first time get called in past 4 utg raises...and the next 3s after this hand weren't looked up.

=================================

On this hand, SB (villain) checked, BB led the flop, from his past plays/ his bet size on the flop and check the turn, I found he didn't have strong hand.

============================================
OK,let's talk about SB's actions and my river decision.

On the turn, when SB mini-c/r to 3K, I put her on AK, two pair, a set of 9 and flush draw. But I strongly believed no one would slow play a set on the flop given two hearts on the board when one bet, one call, and pot is big enough for c/r with set/2p related to each player's stacksize. OK, back one step, she could slow play a set on the flop, but not on the turn, she would have crai the turn against two players with a set, not mini-raising giving flush draw correct odd to call. Therefore, (villain has) a flush draw making a semi-bluff at the turn and push non-heart river with remaining stack fits into villain's action/pattern.

At the river, I thought the push was pre-planned at the turn unless she plays a set very badly or has KQ,K6.
But KQ/K6 would have lead the flop to find out where she was.

Let's think from villain's side, I called the flop, bet/call the turn, if villain put me on a flush draw, why push the river? For value or want me to fold?

The bottomline, villain played like a flush draw on the flop and suddenly changed the line to a represent a set on the turn/river.

It's hard to call with all my chips. Ok, go with the read and I called, villain showed K4o. BB said he folded KT on the turn.

Everyone at the table put villain on a set of 9. But, I believe villain tried to reprsent a set at the turn after showing a flush draw on the flop. The flop/turn actions were not consistent. (However, turn/river actions were consistent enough to show river push is meaningless)

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I'm pretty stunned the "tight" villain called with K4 offsuit preflop

Hellova call (I assume?), I couldn't make that call reading her as a tight player with that many people in the pot with your hand

Re: Legends of Poker 1K River Decision
 

I guess sometimes tight player makes loose pf call from the blinds because of "pot-odd". On the turn, she put me a on flush draw trying to steal and she also realized BB's hand wasn't strong when BB checked the turn, so she had an awkward thought that a c/r would push both weak King and flush draw off the hand.

Re: Legends of Poker 1K River Decision
 

I agree with everything Cornell Fiji said.

Re: Legends of Poker 1K River Decision
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fold the flop.
Check behind on the turn. Fold to the minraise
Fold the river...

I don't really love preflop either but it could be +ev as long as you are able to get away from your hand when beat.

The only hands that you are logically ahead of is JhTh and Ah8h.

I think that the flop and river decisions are more marginal than the turn which I think is a pretty straight forward check (and fold to the minraise)

[/ QUOTE ]

Key - (don't think about our own cards, think about villain's action) why SB slow played a set on a drawing flop against 2 players?

utg raise is questionable, but defendable at this table, they rarely looked me up. This is the first time get called in past 4 utg raises...and the next 3s after this hand weren't looked up.

=================================

On this hand, SB (villain) checked, BB led the flop, from his past plays/ his bet size on the flop and check the turn, I found he didn't have strong hand.

============================================
OK,let's talk about SB's actions and my river decision.

On the turn, when SB mini-c/r to 3K, I put her on AK, two pair, a set of 9 and flush draw. But I strongly believed no one would slow play a set on the flop given two hearts on the board when one bet, one call, and pot is big enough for c/r with set/2p related to each player's stacksize. OK, back one step, she could slow play a set on the flop, but not on the turn, she would have crai the turn against two players with a set, not mini-raising giving flush draw correct odd to call. Therefore, (villain has) a flush draw making a semi-bluff at the turn and push non-heart river with remaining stack fits into villain's action/pattern.

At the river, I thought the push was pre-planned at the turn unless she plays a set very badly or has KQ,K6.
But KQ/K6 would have lead the flop to find out where she was.

Let's think from villain's side, I called the flop, bet/call the turn, if villain put me on a flush draw, why push the river? For value or want me to fold?

The bottomline, villain played like a flush draw on the flop and suddenly changed the line to a represent a set on the turn/river.

It's hard to call with all my chips. Ok, go with the read and I called, villain showed K4o. BB said he folded KT on the turn.

Everyone at the table put villain on a set of 9. But, I believe villain tried to reprsent a set at the turn after showing a flush draw on the flop. The flop/turn actions were not consistent. (However, turn/river actions were consistent enough to show river push is meaningless)

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Being results oriented here: you put her on a busted draw (and not a set) because she pushed the river, not allowing you to put any more chips in if you had a busted flush draw. I think this is a case of you giving your opponent way too much credit and thinking that she is on a level that she clearly was not on.

In hindsight, why do you think she shoved her K4o? Surely you were going to call with any pat hand that called on the turn (if not then calling the turn doesn't make much sense as this seems to be a preplanned play) so she wasn't bluffing. Surely you were also going to fold a busted draw to her river shove. Therefore her river bet makes no sense, something that is very common with many live players. Did she think that you would take your line with a hand like AQ or JJ and then call on the river? Doubtful.

If she is capable of these nonsensical lines then your actions had to be -ev in this hand. If she would push K4o on the end then it stands to reason that she would also push AK/KQ/KJ/set/(as well as smaller kings which are heavily discounted preflop) and she would also push a draw.

It seems to me that while you made a good live read on this hand, given the information in this post and the fact that you were not at the table the correct decision was to fold at pretty much every occasion.

-Steve

Re: Legends of Poker 1K River Decision
 

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I agree with everything Cornell Fiji said.

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Yea, CF and S[c]D both got it. You can definitely fold this flop with two to act behind and checking behind on the turn is also preferable.


How does everyone play the turn with AK instead of KT? I'll more often bet but I think I'd still check more often than not.

Re: Legends of Poker 1K River Decision
 

Fold, Fold, Fold, and Fold.

Re: Legends of Poker 1K River Decision
 

[ QUOTE ]

Being results oriented here: you put her on a busted draw (and not a set) because she pushed the river, not allowing you to put any more chips in if you had a busted flush draw. I think this is a case of you giving your opponent way too much credit and thinking that she is on a level that she clearly was not on.

In hindsight, why do you think she shoved her K4o? Surely you were going to call with any pat hand that called on the turn (if not then calling the turn doesn't make much sense as this seems to be a preplanned play) so she wasn't bluffing. Surely you were also going to fold a busted draw to her river shove. Therefore her river bet makes no sense, something that is very common with many live players. Did she think that you would take your line with a hand like AQ or JJ and then call on the river? Doubtful.

If she is capable of these nonsensical lines then your actions had to be -ev in this hand. If she would push K4o on the end then it stands to reason that she would also push AK/KQ/KJ/set/(as well as smaller kings which are heavily discounted preflop) and she would also push a draw.

It seems to me that while you made a good live read on this hand, given the information in this post and the fact that you were not at the table the correct decision was to fold at pretty much every occasion.

-Steve

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Steve,

I actually like your comment/analysis. It shows a different view of the hand.

I think in live games, there are many factors to think when making decisions. Sure, she played the hand like set, two pair, AK at the turn/river. But I just didn't believe she didn't c/r the flop with those hands, and also missed the turn's 2nd crai chance but giving flush draw correct odd to call the turn.

Like you said, it's a -ev to make that call against players at this level. To me, it wasn't a river call like "You bluff me. I got you!". It was 60% call - 40% fold for me because I did think 40% of the time she was bad enough to play AK/set like that and 60% for others. That's why I posted this hand.

Re: Legends of Poker 1K River Decision
 

hand is played so bad. fold flop. barring that fold turn. i didnt really read it but if you somehow beat some braindead donkey you run hotter than deeez_nuts.