QQ 3-bet pot, bad river
 

Villain is JFish on 2p2, 22/20/9 over 105 hands. He just sat at the table but I know he 3-bets pretty light and although we don't have any history I think he bets this river with almost any two cards. Easy call?

Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $2/$4 Blinds - 4 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

SB: $402.00
BB: $1,049.20
UTG: $786.60
Hero (BTN): $394.00

Preflop: Hero is dealt Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 Players)
UTG folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $14.00</font>, <font color="red">SB raises to $52.00</font>, BB folds, Hero calls $38.00

Flop: ($108) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">SB bets $70.00</font>, Hero calls $70.00

Turn: ($248) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
SB checks, Hero checks

River: ($248) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">SB bets all-in for $280.00</font>, Hero calls all-in for $272.00
Uncalled bet of $8.00 returned to SB

Pot Size: $792.00 ($2 Rake)

Re: QQ 3-bet pot, bad river
 

Just to add, AK most likely shoves this turn as well as any nut flush draw so his range of hands beating me is most likely something like AT-AQ, AXs. Obviously he also could have slowplayed a hand on the turn but since we just sat at the table I would expect him to play most of his hands pretty straightforward.

Re: QQ 3-bet pot, bad river
 

[ QUOTE ]
and although we don't have any history I think he bets this river with almost any two cards. Easy call?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well... if this is your read, you know it's a pretty easy call. I would trust my own read above anything here

Re: QQ 3-bet pot, bad river
 

foldfoldfoldfoldfoldfold

hes value shoving AJ

Re: QQ 3-bet pot, bad river
 

4bet preflop/fold river

Re: QQ 3-bet pot, bad river
 

[ QUOTE ]
4bet preflop/fold river

[/ QUOTE ]

no calling preflop is perfectly fine and probably better than 4betting.

Re: QQ 3-bet pot, bad river
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
4bet preflop/fold river

[/ QUOTE ]

no calling preflop is perfectly fine and probably better than 4betting.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless you 4 bet with any sort of frequency, and then I think 4 betting is best. Otherwise I basically agree with above. As for the river, while I agree he could be shoving here with any 2, the likelihood of him valuetowning you with Ax or even Kx makes this a fold IMO.

Re: QQ 3-bet pot, bad river
 

[ QUOTE ]
foldfoldfoldfoldfoldfold

hes value shoving KJ

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: QQ 3-bet pot, bad river
 

lol nobody ever folds to me ever at 2/4.

Re: QQ 3-bet pot, bad river
 

Well what was the outcome?

Re: QQ 3-bet pot, bad river
 

i have QJ and he winz.

Re: QQ 3-bet pot, bad river
 

[ QUOTE ]
i have QJ and he winz.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm still not crazy about the call.

Re: QQ 3-bet pot, bad river
 

[ QUOTE ]
i have QJ and he winz.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jfish, would you value shove here with KQ/KJ? I assume you would amirite?

Re: QQ 3-bet pot, bad river
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i have QJ and he winz.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jfish, would you value shove here with KQ/KJ? I assume you would amirite?

[/ QUOTE ]

urrite.

Re: QQ 3-bet pot, bad river
 

Is it contradictory to have value shoving KJ and bluff shoving QJ be part of the same game plan?

Re: QQ 3-bet pot, bad river
 

[ QUOTE ]
Is it contradictory to have value shoving KJ and bluff shoving QJ be part of the same game plan?

[/ QUOTE ]

Can't quite grasp this atm, elaborate?

Re: QQ 3-bet pot, bad river
 

In other words, if people are calling you so light (third pair) such that you think you can value bet (over-pot no less) with 2nd pair, then maybe you shouldn't be bluffing them. You can't both say: "He's got 88-QQ and think he'll call, so I shove KJ", and say: "He's got 88-QQ and think he'll fold, so I'll shove queen high."

Re: QQ 3-bet pot, bad river
 

[ QUOTE ]
In other words, if people are calling you so light (third pair) such that you think you can value bet (over-pot no less) with 2nd pair, then maybe you shouldn't be bluffing them. You can't both say: "I know he's got 77-QQ and think he'll call, so I shove KJ", and say: "I know he's got 77-QQ and think he'll fold, so I'll shove queen high."

[/ QUOTE ]

O, you are just talking villain dependant. I mean if he's value shoving KJ its relativately thin, and for the same reasons, shoving QJ is relatively thin. I don't think shoving both against this villain is that bad. Both are just thin and high variance.

Re: QQ 3-bet pot, bad river
 

[ QUOTE ]
Is it contradictory to have value shoving KJ and bluff shoving QJ be part of the same game plan?

[/ QUOTE ]

haha i dunno maybe. i just figured he doesnt ALWAYS call with QQ here and that maybe he folded QQ- enough of the time.

Re: QQ 3-bet pot, bad river
 

[ QUOTE ]
In other words, if people are calling you so light (third pair) such that you think you can value bet (over-pot no less) with 2nd pair, then maybe you shouldn't be bluffing them. You can't both say: "He's got 88-QQ and think he'll call, so I shove KJ", and say: "He's got 88-QQ and think he'll fold, so I'll shove queen high."

[/ QUOTE ]

didn't we just go through a big thread on this like 2 weeks ago?

Re: QQ 3-bet pot, bad river
 

[ QUOTE ]
Is it contradictory to have value shoving KJ and bluff shoving QJ be part of the same game plan?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not necessarily; to see why, imagine that your opponent has TT 100% of the time and folds 60% of the time when you make a pot shove on the river. Both bluff shoving QJ and value shoving KJ will now be profitable.

Re: QQ 3-bet pot, bad river
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i have QJ and he winz.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jfish, would you value shove here with KQ/KJ? I assume you would amirite?

[/ QUOTE ]

urrite.

[/ QUOTE ]

i doubt this very much. seems pretty bad imo

Re: QQ 3-bet pot, bad river
 

well i think his hand is pretty obvious as a pair under Kx given his flop call and turn check. i might not shove river with KJ/KQ but id certainly bet it.

Re: QQ 3-bet pot, bad river
 

If OP didn't bet QQ on the turn, why do you think he'd bet KTs-KQs? And AcXc takes the free card some % of the time surely. Even A7s/A6s are possible.