Ron Paul\'s Straw Poll Showing
 

Despite claims by many that Ron Paul's support amongst traditional conservatives and republicans is non existant, Ron Paul the candidate formerly referred to by the media as a "longshot" now "dark horse" candidate is making significant strides in winning the hearts and the minds of traditional conservatives.

While his "Barry Goldwater" conservatism appeals to anti government activists of all stripes and his anti-war message is reaching across the aisle and bringing in many of the left, much as Nixon and Einsenhower did to secure their respective presidencies, it is quickly becoming apparent that the maverick Congressman from Texas is not so different after all.

A life long pro life and anti-gun control advocate Congressman Paul claims to be "the most conservative member of Congress". His voting record indicates this is true : in all of his twenty years in office, Ron Paul has never voted to raise taxes or increase the size of the government. It is clear Iowans are ready to begin saying "Yes" to Dr. No.

While some Ron Paul supporters expressed mild disastisfaction at the showing, 9% is nearly five times higher than Paul's polling data indicated. Many mainstream media outlets had proferred estimates for his Straw Poll numbers to be as low as 1%. Owing in part to his highly energized grass roots campaign staff travelling in from out of state to participate in the straw poll, his success is undoubtably influenced primarily by his ever expanding internet campaign (which of costs the Ron Paul campaign absolutely nothing and is converting people by the minute, as opposed to by the dollar) it is important to understand that much of Paul's support comes from outside the GOP base. The Republican party experienced significant losses in the last congressional election and this is of course due in large part to the war issue. Ron Paul voted against the war.

It is obvious that this surge in the polls is an indication of the growing momentum in the Paul campaign. As grass roots organizations empowered by the internet and fueled perhaps by the emotion invoked by the hundreds of Ron Paul video's on youtube (I know I have shed a few tears of joy listening to the great doctor) continue to spread Dr. Paul's message of peace and limited government the numbers and donations will only continue to rise. While it is true Ron Pauld does not have the hundreds of millions of dollars of candidates Hillary Clinton and Mitt Romney, he does have a fairly significant war chest, gained almost entirely by cost free internet fund raising. It is a shame the public never stops to ask "How did these politicians raise hundreds of millions of dollars? What parts of our country have they promised to the special interests who dominate our politics?" but this is the fate of a world dominated by the five second sound byte. Jack Abernoff is out of sight and lobbying and corruption is out of mind.

Most pundits are banking on a Democratic victory in the Presidency. While they seldom explain their reasoning, the biggest reason is of course the war issue and disatisfaction with Bush Presidency. How beautifully ironic it would be to see a Paul vs Edwards or Paul vs Clinton candidacy. To watch the Democratic candidate attempt to explain away their vote for the war in Iraq, when faced with Ron Paul's brave dissenting stance, his vote against. Indeed, it would be beautiful to see the true values of conservatism, limited government and personal responsibility to be debated eloquently against the ultimately Marxist ideals of someone like Hillary Clinton and there is no question, in my opinion, that given the choice the American people will always pick freedom and peace over collectivism and war.

Let's just hope they get the chance.

Re: Ron Paul\'s Straw Poll Showing
 

Then the conductor called your stop, breaking you out of your waking dream and you realized that it will be Romney or Giuliani against Clinton and Paul will have no influence on policy, the usual objective of the unelectable.

Re: Ron Paul\'s Straw Poll Showing
 

Thank you for repeating the message of the media for me, I had almost forgotten what CNN, ABC, MSNBC and Fox News wanted me to think.

Re: Ron Paul\'s Straw Poll Showing
 

[ QUOTE ]
Then the conductor called your stop, breaking you out of your waking dream and you realized that it will be Romney or Giuliani against Clinton and Paul will have no influence on policy, the usual objective of the unelectable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just for the record Copernicus, which Neo-con are you supporting? I know Guliani is the front-runner, but Romney just won the Straw poll. Also, that Bush wannabe Fred Thompson could actually get off his rear and run. I'd just like to know before it becomes a 100% lock for the nomination. So many of you Neo-cons were pushing George Allen before he fizzled out, just curious if your brave enough to back someone before he becomes a "lock".

Re: Ron Paul\'s Straw Poll Showing
 

[ QUOTE ]
Jack Abernoff

[/ QUOTE ]

Abramoff

Re: Ron Paul\'s Straw Poll Showing
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Then the conductor called your stop, breaking you out of your waking dream and you realized that it will be Romney or Giuliani against Clinton and Paul will have no influence on policy, the usual objective of the unelectable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just for the record Copernicus, which Neo-con are you supporting? I know Guliani is the front-runner, but Romney just won the Straw poll. Also, that Bush wannabe Fred Thompson could actually get off his rear and run. I'd just like to know before it becomes a 100% lock for the nomination. So many of you Neo-cons were pushing George Allen before he fizzled out, just curious if your brave enough to back someone before he becomes a "lock".

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't classify any of the candidates as neo-cons, but disregarding that attempt at perjorative, of the current group Giuliani. I am probably more closely aligned with Romney's policies and style than Giuliani's but I accept the reality that a Mormon can't win the big one. It is that same acceptance of the reality of anti-Black and anti-woman sentiment that gives me hope for Giuliani in the general election, not any real understanding of the issues by the swing voters. As Ive said before, sometimes you just have to take the ugly wins. They still count in the standings.


Edited to fix mis-reading of the question.

Re: Ron Paul\'s Straw Poll Showing
 

[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't classify any of the candidates as neo-cons

[/ QUOTE ]

They all want to torture those smelly ferrners enough to satisfy him, but some of them won't be quick enough to send deviants who happen to be US Citizens to re-education camps to qualify as "real" neo-cons.

Re: Ron Paul\'s Straw Poll Showing
 

I win by Giuliani is hardly a win for Republicans, Conservatives, or America.

Re: Ron Paul\'s Straw Poll Showing
 

[ QUOTE ]
I win by Giuliani is hardly a win for Republicans, Conservatives, or America.

[/ QUOTE ]

Compared to Shrillary a one eyed cocker spaniel choosing policy by where he poops on a grid of alternatives is a win for America.

Re: Ron Paul\'s Straw Poll Showing
 

This was not a good showing for Ron Paul. His numbers were inflated by Giuliani and McCain not showing up. Before the poll, Paul's commincation director Jesse Benton said, ""We expect to be in the top three. We've got four staffers organizing and we've got a lot of web site RSVPs from volunteers."

Let's not forget....Ron Paul is still less popular than Tom Tancredo.

Re: Ron Paul\'s Straw Poll Showing
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I win by Giuliani is hardly a win for Republicans, Conservatives, or America.

[/ QUOTE ]

Compared to Shrillary a one eyed cocker spaniel choosing policy by where he poops on a grid of alternatives is a win for America.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because they would be so different.

Re: Ron Paul\'s Straw Poll Showing
 

[ QUOTE ]
Compared to Shrillary a one eyed cocker spaniel choosing policy by where he poops on a grid of alternatives is a win for America.


[/ QUOTE ]

QFT

Re: Ron Paul\'s Straw Poll Showing
 

Romney spent approximately $2200 per vote that he received in the straw poll. Ron Paul spent around $200 per vote. Romney brought people in by buying their tickets and chartering a fleet of buses to bring people in from all over the state. Romney and Huckabee both had huge tents with bands and free food(Huckabee catered "Famous Dave's BBQ" for 3500 people).

The campaigns purchased 25000 tickets for people to attend and less than 15000 voted. Romney's campaign is known to have purchased at least 5000 tickets and it is rumored they may have bought as many as 10000. Needless to say they were not happy to receive less than 5000 votes. There were 200-300 buses of people brought in from around the state. Ron Paul's campaign purchased 500 tickets and did not bus people in.

IMO this straw poll was a disaster for Romney and the GOP in general. I think it was a positive step for Ron Paul. He was supposedly at 1%, then 2%, now in Iowa he got 9%. If he improves on that in NH he is suddenly a candidate who is gaining momentum. If he fails to improve his campaign is probably over.

Re: Ron Paul\'s Straw Poll Showing
 

[ QUOTE ]
The campaigns purchased 25000 tickets for people to attend and less than 15000 voted. Romney's campaign is known to have purchased at least 5000 tickets and it is rumored they may have bought as many as 10000. Needless to say they were not happy to receive less than 5000 votes. There were 200-300 buses of people brought in from around the state. Ron Paul's campaign purchased 500 tickets and did not bus people in.

[/ QUOTE ]

They did. Unfortunately for the principles involved, it was on Romney's buses.

Re: Ron Paul\'s Straw Poll Showing
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Then the conductor called your stop, breaking you out of your waking dream and you realized that it will be Romney or Giuliani against Clinton and Paul will have no influence on policy, the usual objective of the unelectable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just for the record Copernicus, which Neo-con are you supporting? I know Guliani is the front-runner, but Romney just won the Straw poll. Also, that Bush wannabe Fred Thompson could actually get off his rear and run. I'd just like to know before it becomes a 100% lock for the nomination. So many of you Neo-cons were pushing George Allen before he fizzled out, just curious if your brave enough to back someone before he becomes a "lock".

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't classify any of the candidates as neo-cons, but disregarding that attempt at perjorative, of the current group Giuliani. I am probably more closely aligned with Romney's policies and style than Giuliani's but I accept the reality that a Mormon can't win the big one. It is that same acceptance of the reality of anti-Black and anti-woman sentiment that gives me hope for Giuliani in the general election, not any real understanding of the issues by the swing voters. As Ive said before, sometimes you just have to take the ugly wins. They still count in the standings.


Edited to fix mis-reading of the question.

[/ QUOTE ]


You agree with Giuliani's stance on gun control and abortion?

Re: Ron Paul\'s Straw Poll Showing
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The campaigns purchased 25000 tickets for people to attend and less than 15000 voted. Romney's campaign is known to have purchased at least 5000 tickets and it is rumored they may have bought as many as 10000. Needless to say they were not happy to receive less than 5000 votes. There were 200-300 buses of people brought in from around the state. Ron Paul's campaign purchased 500 tickets and did not bus people in.

[/ QUOTE ]

They did. Unfortunately for the principles involved, it was on Romney's buses.

[/ QUOTE ]

Adanthar, are you implying that the Ron Paul Campaign is responsible for their supporters riding on Romney's buses?

Re: Ron Paul\'s Straw Poll Showing
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The campaigns purchased 25000 tickets for people to attend and less than 15000 voted. Romney's campaign is known to have purchased at least 5000 tickets and it is rumored they may have bought as many as 10000. Needless to say they were not happy to receive less than 5000 votes. There were 200-300 buses of people brought in from around the state. Ron Paul's campaign purchased 500 tickets and did not bus people in.

[/ QUOTE ]

They did. Unfortunately for the principles involved, it was on Romney's buses.

[/ QUOTE ]

Adanthar, are you implying that the Ron Paul Campaign is responsible for their supporters riding on Romney's buses?

[/ QUOTE ]

That article is certainly implying that the campaign was at least tacitly supporting it, isn't it?

http://ronpaulpledge.com/wordpress/?p=21 <==== This site certainly loves the idea. How affiliated are they?

Re: Ron Paul\'s Straw Poll Showing
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The campaigns purchased 25000 tickets for people to attend and less than 15000 voted. Romney's campaign is known to have purchased at least 5000 tickets and it is rumored they may have bought as many as 10000. Needless to say they were not happy to receive less than 5000 votes. There were 200-300 buses of people brought in from around the state. Ron Paul's campaign purchased 500 tickets and did not bus people in.

[/ QUOTE ]

They did. Unfortunately for the principles involved, it was on Romney's buses.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, the article you've cited clearly states that the people promoting the idea of hitching a ride on Romney's buses were acting independantly from the campaign.

I guess if you can't afford to get to a polling place the "principled" thing to do is not vote and let the people with the money make the decisions for you. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: Ron Paul\'s Straw Poll Showing
 

You're right that, without more, I shouldn't have phrased it that way - I apologize and retract the suggestion that Paul's campaign did this directly.

So, let me rephrase that. How's a campaign based around libertarian philosophy tacitly endorsing their supporters' usage of another campaign's resources?

Re: Ron Paul\'s Straw Poll Showing
 

This was a party, not an election. Hitching a ride on a Romney bus, taking a Romney ticket, and then voting for Paul is like going to a club, but because you can't afford it, you feel justified in stiffing the cabbie, sneaking in the fire exit, and then stealing a bottle from behind the bar.

The straw poll is about as important as the class president election at Ames High School. Maybe less so, at least the class president may get a little back seat action out of his win.

Re: Ron Paul\'s Straw Poll Showing
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Then the conductor called your stop, breaking you out of your waking dream and you realized that it will be Romney or Giuliani against Clinton and Paul will have no influence on policy, the usual objective of the unelectable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just for the record Copernicus, which Neo-con are you supporting? I know Guliani is the front-runner, but Romney just won the Straw poll. Also, that Bush wannabe Fred Thompson could actually get off his rear and run. I'd just like to know before it becomes a 100% lock for the nomination. So many of you Neo-cons were pushing George Allen before he fizzled out, just curious if your brave enough to back someone before he becomes a "lock".

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't classify any of the candidates as neo-cons, but disregarding that attempt at perjorative, of the current group Giuliani. I am probably more closely aligned with Romney's policies and style than Giuliani's but I accept the reality that a Mormon can't win the big one. It is that same acceptance of the reality of anti-Black and anti-woman sentiment that gives me hope for Giuliani in the general election, not any real understanding of the issues by the swing voters. As Ive said before, sometimes you just have to take the ugly wins. They still count in the standings.


Edited to fix mis-reading of the question.

[/ QUOTE ]


You agree with Giuliani's stance on gun control and abortion?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pro-choice and Giuliani is pro-keep the decision with the woman. Its not exactly the same, possibly better than the same, because he's willing to support law even if he's not in total agreement.

Gun control? Absolutely. nothing wrong with registration and demonstration of some minimal competence.

Re: Ron Paul\'s Straw Poll Showing
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I win by Giuliani is hardly a win for Republicans, Conservatives, or America.

[/ QUOTE ]

Compared to Shrillary a one eyed cocker spaniel choosing policy by where he poops on a grid of alternatives is a win for America.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. Cocker spaniel>>>>>>>Hillary=Giulian i.

Re: Ron Paul\'s Straw Poll Showing
 

[ QUOTE ]
This was not a good showing for Ron Paul. His numbers were inflated by Giuliani and McCain not showing up. Before the poll, Paul's commincation director Jesse Benton said, ""We expect to be in the top three. We've got four staffers organizing and we've got a lot of web site RSVPs from volunteers."

Let's not forget....Ron Paul is still less popular than Tom Tancredo.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think it was a good result, although I'm disappointed that his numbers weren't higher. If you seen any of the video from the event, Ron Paul volunteers grossly outnumbered Romneys' paid volunteers. Maybe its just a few die hard supporters from out of state, but $2M or $8M -- whatever Romney spent -- he couldn't get 1/10th of the on the ground support Paul had even with 150 family members there. While waiting for the results in the coliseum, there was at least a 100 Paul supporters and I saw 3 Brownback people. I didn't see 1 Tancredo person the whole event (via Justin.tv).

Rudy and McCain's low numbers just show how the poll is based on who pays to win. The whole poll seems like a joke designed just to raise GOP funds.

Re: Ron Paul\'s Straw Poll Showing
 

[ QUOTE ]
This was a party, not an election. Hitching a ride on a Romney bus, taking a Romney ticket, and then voting for Paul is like going to a club, but because you can't afford it, you feel justified in stiffing the cabbie, sneaking in the fire exit, and then stealing a bottle from behind the bar.

The straw poll is about as important as the class president election at Ames High School. Maybe less so, at least the class president may get a little back seat action out of his win.

[/ QUOTE ]

It was a party AND a vote which helps shape the Prez election to at least some degree (MSM reporting it widely). So your suggestion is that if a candidate buys your vote, you better damn well vote for him or YOU are the one undermining our system. Great.

Re: Ron Paul\'s Straw Poll Showing
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Then the conductor called your stop, breaking you out of your waking dream and you realized that it will be Romney or Giuliani against Clinton and Paul will have no influence on policy, the usual objective of the unelectable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just for the record Copernicus, which Neo-con are you supporting? I know Guliani is the front-runner, but Romney just won the Straw poll. Also, that Bush wannabe Fred Thompson could actually get off his rear and run. I'd just like to know before it becomes a 100% lock for the nomination. So many of you Neo-cons were pushing George Allen before he fizzled out, just curious if your brave enough to back someone before he becomes a "lock".

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't classify any of the candidates as neo-cons, but disregarding that attempt at perjorative, of the current group Giuliani. I am probably more closely aligned with Romney's policies and style than Giuliani's but I accept the reality that a Mormon can't win the big one. It is that same acceptance of the reality of anti-Black and anti-woman sentiment that gives me hope for Giuliani in the general election, not any real understanding of the issues by the swing voters. As Ive said before, sometimes you just have to take the ugly wins. They still count in the standings.


Edited to fix mis-reading of the question.

[/ QUOTE ]


You agree with Giuliani's stance on gun control and abortion?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pro-choice and Giuliani is pro-keep the decision with the woman. Its not exactly the same, possibly better than the same, because he's willing to support law even if he's not in total agreement.

Gun control? Absolutely. nothing wrong with registration and demonstration of some minimal competence.

[/ QUOTE ]

What I see wrong with that is government control. Honestly, I trust my neighbors more than I trust politicians, and that means I trust my neighbors with guns more than I trust politicians or police with guns. I think the common people should have guns as the ultimate barrier against government tyranny, exactly as our forefathers intended. I don't think government should be in the business of deciding who gets to own guns and who doesn't, because that defeats the very purpose of guns being the check of last resort against government tyranny.

Giuliani is probably the most rabid anti-gun candidate of the entire current crop. He believes you should have to prove to the satisfaction of government officials that you actually NEED a gun before you should be allowed to possess one.

Giuliani is essentially a Liberal except when it comes to civil rights and Constitutional rights. He is pro social spending, pro big government, pro illegal immigration, deeply anti-gun, pro gay rights, and pro-abortion. How is this candidate NOT a liberal? The only way I see him as being not a liberal, is that he believes that freedom is giving up certain rights, and that he would be willing to use the state to enforce the giving up of those rights which he thinks you ought to give up.

Re: Ron Paul\'s Straw Poll Showing
 

[ QUOTE ]
Giuliani is essentially a Liberal except when it comes to civil rights and Constitutional rights.

[/ QUOTE ]

And torturing smelly foriegners.

Re: Ron Paul\'s Straw Poll Showing
 

[ QUOTE ]
Giuliani is probably the most rabid anti-gun candidate of the entire current crop. He believes you should have to prove to the satisfaction of government officials that you actually NEED a gun before you should be allowed to possess one.

[/ QUOTE ] That is not my understanding of his position. I have only heard/read him to say that he would favor demonstration of competence to use a gun, not a demonstration of need for a gun.

[ QUOTE ]
Giuliani is essentially a Liberal except when it comes to civil rights and Constitutional rights. He is pro social spending, pro big government, pro illegal immigration, deeply anti-gun, pro gay rights, and pro-abortion. How is this candidate NOT a liberal? The only way I see him as being not a liberal, is that he believes that freedom is giving up certain rights, and that he would be willing to use the state to enforce the giving up of those rights which he thinks you ought to give up.

[/ QUOTE ]

As I said in my orignial post, my positions align somewhat better with Romney's and he is unelectable imo. My biggest difference with his that you don't even mention is immigration and that is so far off that it makes him only the best anti-Hillary choice. I don't think its fair to characterize him as "pro-social spending" or "pro-big government" though. He has programs he believes in and programs he doesnt.

Eg. he is not pro Universal Health Care, the biggest ticket item on the socialist agenda. He is anti-welfare as its currently structured and recognizes that the able bodied should be incentivized to work.

On the "big government" side, again he's anti UHC, the biggest government you can get. Hes for privatizing a lot of the public education system and for vouchers.

On abortion he is pro-choice as a matter of law, not a matter of conscience. Abortion as a bellweather of a candidate is way overblown anyway.

On the fiscal side he is in favor of continuing the Bush tax cuts, in favor of reducing the AMT burden and in favor of reductions in sales/use taxes.

WRT to homeland security he is pro-Patriot Act, pro-wireless wiretaps and overseas eavesdropping.

Characterizing him as a "liberal" is way off the mark, imo, especially on the big issues except immigration.

Re: Ron Paul\'s Straw Poll Showing
 

I'm surprised you even know he got 9%-- all of the news stories I've come across don't even mention him.

Re: Ron Paul\'s Straw Poll Showing
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm surprised you even know he got 9%-- all of the news stories I've come across don't even mention him.

[/ QUOTE ]

I watched a couple news programs this morning and a couple of them conveniently show who placed 1-4, then they go on to talk about how Tommy Thompson will drop, Fred Thompson, Giuliani, and McCain and show who placed 6-10. They could at least show the results and who placed 5th. This is why Ron Paul has absoultely no chance at the nomination.

Re: Ron Paul\'s Straw Poll Showing
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This was not a good showing for Ron Paul. His numbers were inflated by Giuliani and McCain not showing up. Before the poll, Paul's commincation director Jesse Benton said, ""We expect to be in the top three. We've got four staffers organizing and we've got a lot of web site RSVPs from volunteers."

Let's not forget....Ron Paul is still less popular than Tom Tancredo.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think it was a good result, although I'm disappointed that his numbers weren't higher. If you seen any of the video from the event, Ron Paul volunteers grossly outnumbered Romneys' paid volunteers. Maybe its just a few die hard supporters from out of state, but $2M or $8M -- whatever Romney spent -- he couldn't get 1/10th of the on the ground support Paul had even with 150 family members there. While waiting for the results in the coliseum, there was at least a 100 Paul supporters and I saw 3 Brownback people. I didn't see 1 Tancredo person the whole event (via Justin.tv).

Rudy and McCain's low numbers just show how the poll is based on who pays to win. The whole poll seems like a joke designed just to raise GOP funds.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not saying it's a bad result, but it's definitely not some great moral victory that some Ron Paul proponents want to make this out to be. It wasn't so bad that he should consider quitting the way that Tommy Thompson and Duncan Hunter should.

The guy who really had the great results is Mike Huckabee, who reportedly didn't rent any buses to bring people in. And he exceeded expectations even though the Club for Growth ran negative ads against him in Iowa. I wouldn't be surprised if Huckabee and Paul had expenses in the same ballpark. Huckabee is certainly closer to Paul than Romney in spending. Say what you want to about Romney and his spending, but other candidates have spent more for less in the past (Steve Forbes).

The bottom line is that Ron Paul didn't really change his standing relative to other candidates. Tancredo and Huckabee did. Romney is sort of in the same boat as Paul, but maintaining the status quo is more valuable for a front-runner than it is for a lower tier candidate trying to improve and seem viable. But Ron Paul is still a third-tier candidate, a tier that will get smaller if Huckabee and possibly Tancredo are promoted to second tier and Tommy Thompson and Duncan Hunter drop out. He hasn't done anything yet to dispel the notion that he is this year's Alan Keyes who thinks he sees the Republican version of Howard Dean in the mirror.

Re: Ron Paul\'s Straw Poll Showing
 

It's gonna be awesome when Bloomberg runs independent and makes Paul the VP candidate.

Re: Ron Paul\'s Straw Poll Showing
 

Haven't you ever heard the old saying, no one remembers who finished fifth? The Wash Post did the same thing, mentioning 1st-4th and 6th but forgetting 5th.

And I think 9% is encouraging.

Re: Ron Paul\'s Straw Poll Showing
 

I think it was a good result for Dr. Paul. Since only Iowans could vote in the poll and Iowa would be one the least favorable states for his message 9% is decent showing. Also, he only spent a week on the ground in the state. This is the first time this year that I think he has even a minuscule chance at the nomination. His supporters seem to be the most passionate and he has the most upside of any of the candidates in the field.

Re: Ron Paul\'s Straw Poll Showing
 

[ QUOTE ]
Haven't you ever heard the old saying, no one remembers who finished fifth? The Wash Post did the same thing, mentioning 1st-4th and 6th but forgetting 5th.

And I think 9% is encouraging.

[/ QUOTE ]
Ridiculous. No one can possibly say the media isn't being unfair to Dr Paul now.

And given the amount of money spent, the media coverage he get's, and that these so called respectable polls have him at 1-2%, this is a big win for him.

Re: Ron Paul\'s Straw Poll Showing
 

[ QUOTE ]

Ridiculous. No one can possibly say the media isn't being unfair to Dr Paul now.

And given the amount of money spent, the media coverage he get's, and that these so called respectable polls have him at 1-2%, this is a big win for him.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/2871/bullshitus6.jpg

Here's one of the graphics I saw today. Just amazing that they can't even post the real results and completely leave out Paul and Tancredo.

Re: Ron Paul\'s Straw Poll Showing
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Giuliani is essentially a Liberal except when it comes to civil rights and Constitutional rights.

[/ QUOTE ]

And torturing smelly foriegners.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you've previously referred to foreigners as "smelly". Any reason why you keep saying that?

Re: Ron Paul\'s Straw Poll Showing
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Giuliani is probably the most rabid anti-gun candidate of the entire current crop. He believes you should have to prove to the satisfaction of government officials that you actually NEED a gun before you should be allowed to possess one.

[/ QUOTE ] That is not my understanding of his position. I have only heard/read him to say that he would favor demonstration of competence to use a gun, not a demonstration of need for a gun.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, well, you probably never read this:

(quoted from Giuliani's Mayor's website in 1997)

"If Mr. Abu Kamal would have tried to buy a gun in New York, he would not have been able to do so. Because in New York our gun control laws are much stricter and more responsible than in Florida.

To purchase a gun in the State of New York you have to give your full name, your date of birth, your residence, your occupation. You have to prove that you're a United States citizen, you have to show you are of good character, competency and integrity. And you have to demonstrate a real need for the weapon.

And thanks in part to our stricter gun control laws, crime is down dramatically in New York City. Shootings are down over 50 percent. Murder is down over 50 percent. But the fact is that 90 percent of the guns we take out of the hands of criminals in New York City come from out of the State of New York.

We need a federal law that bans all assault weapons, and if in fact you do need a handgun you should be subjected to at least the same restrictions -- and really stronger ones -- that exist for driving an automobile.

The United States Congress needs to pass uniform licensing for everyone carrying a gun. Congress must do more to prevent a tragedy like the one that happened at the Empire State Building from ever happening again.

From Gracie Mansion, this is Mayor Rudy Giuliani."

So not only does Giuliani think that need should be demonstrated for owning a gun, but he is also in favor of federal gun licensing instead of leaving it in the hands of the states.

Giuliani On Guns and Gun Laws

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Giuliani is essentially a Liberal except when it comes to civil rights and Constitutional rights. He is pro social spending, pro big government, pro illegal immigration, deeply anti-gun, pro gay rights, and pro-abortion. How is this candidate NOT a liberal? The only way I see him as being not a liberal, is that he believes that freedom is giving up certain rights, and that he would be willing to use the state to enforce the giving up of those rights which he thinks you ought to give up.

[/ QUOTE ]

As I said in my orignial post, my positions align somewhat better with Romney's and he is unelectable imo. My biggest difference with his that you don't even mention is immigration and that is so far off that it makes him only the best anti-Hillary choice.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure what you're saying here about immigration related stances, but Giuliani is strongly pro the illegal immigrants in New York.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think its fair to characterize him as "pro-social spending" or "pro-big government" though. He has programs he believes in and programs he doesnt.

Eg. he is not pro Universal Health Care, the biggest ticket item on the socialist agenda. He is anti-welfare as its currently structured and recognizes that the able bodied should be incentivized to work.

On the "big government" side, again he's anti UHC, the biggest government you can get. Hes for privatizing a lot of the public education system and for vouchers.

On abortion he is pro-choice as a matter of law, not a matter of conscience. Abortion as a bellweather of a candidate is way overblown anyway.

On the fiscal side he is in favor of continuing the Bush tax cuts, in favor of reducing the AMT burden and in favor of reductions in sales/use taxes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Points taken, and I see that I might have been painting with too broad a brush. I wasn't aware of all the specifics you cited, either, so thanks for the additional information.

I'll note that Bush is a liberal in the overall financial picture, though: tax cuts notwithstanding, his spending binge has far outstripped his tax cuts, and most of it is for social programs both here in the USA, and abroad as well, since the Iraq War is turning into a massive social program.

[ QUOTE ]
WRT to homeland security he is pro-Patriot Act, pro-wireless wiretaps and overseas eavesdropping.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, on those he is for big government power and arguably not in favor of civil or constitutional rights.

I'd sure love for someone in a debate to ask Giuliani where in the Constitution it states that citizens should have to show a need for a gun before being granted permission to have one.

Thanks for reading.

Re: Ron Paul\'s Straw Poll Showing
 

[ QUOTE ]
http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/2871/bullshitus6.jpg

Here's one of the graphics I saw today. Just amazing that they can't even post the real results and completely leave out Paul and Tancredo.

[/ QUOTE ]
The storm is expected to pass, as long as we ignore him.

Re: Ron Paul\'s Straw Poll Showing
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


And torturing smelly foriegners.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you've previously referred to foreigners as "smelly". Any reason why you keep saying that?

[/ QUOTE ]

Its pretty obvious he is racist.

Re: Ron Paul\'s Straw Poll Showing
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


And torturing smelly foriegners.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you've previously referred to foreigners as "smelly". Any reason why you keep saying that?

[/ QUOTE ]

Its pretty obvious he is racist against smelly people .

[/ QUOTE ]