I fold top pair on turn
 

Reads.

SB is 28/18 after 250 hands. No real reads so datamined hands
BB is 35/17 after 400 hands. No real reads here either.

Is folding completely standard or should I consider 3-betting to knock out SB?


Party Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $5/$10
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) hero is CO with 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
2 folds, <font color="#cc0000">hero raises</font>, Button folds, <font color="#cc0000">SB 3-bets</font>, BB calls, hero calls.

Flop: 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (9SB, 3 players)
<font color="#cc0000">SB bets</font>, BB calls, hero calls.

Turn: Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6BB, 3 players)
<font color="#cc0000">SB bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">BB raises</font>, hero folds...

Re: I fold top pair on turn
 

ugh, but probably fold.

Also, not a huge fan of the flop peel.

Re: I fold top pair on turn
 

Seems like a standard fold. Also, wtf @ the flop peel?

Re: I fold top pair on turn
 

fold the flop. you're steal attempt backfired and you've got no draws...

Re: I fold top pair on turn
 

You guys fold way too much, but that should be in another thread.


Board: 3s 9c 8s

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 40.900% 39.19% 01.71% 4991083 217219.33 { 55+, A7s+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, ATo+, KJo+ }
Hand 1: 48.769% 47.04% 01.73% 5990551 219705.33 { 77+, ATs+, KJs+, QJs, JTs, AJo+, KQo }
Hand 2: 10.331% 10.06% 00.27% 1280723 34824.33 { Qh7h }

Folding in position getting a free river with ok probability is not an option for me.

Please to be commenting on turn fold [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: I fold top pair on turn
 

Good fold. Also Oink, I know you don't like to fold flops but you have to draw the line somewhere.... Seriously, what are you hoping to hit on the turn here?

Re: I fold top pair on turn
 

I really don't give a [censored] about your stoved equity here, your hand sucks and even if you do hit a "good" card on the turn you'll have to dodge a ton of cards on the river. Not folding here has to be a leak [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: I fold top pair on turn
 

[ QUOTE ]
You guys fold way too much, but that should be in another thread.


Board: 3s 9c 8s

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 40.900% 39.19% 01.71% 4991083 217219.33 { 55+, A7s+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, ATo+, KJo+ }
Hand 1: 48.769% 47.04% 01.73% 5990551 219705.33 { 77+, ATs+, KJs+, QJs, JTs, AJo+, KQo }
Hand 2: 10.331% 10.06% 00.27% 1280723 34824.33 { Qh7h }

Folding in position getting a free river with ok probability is not an option for me.

Please to be commenting on turn fold [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

After shoving your equity, I dont see how you can possibly think this is a peel. Youre a 9-1 dog getting a little over 9-1 on your money, but thats only if you always see the river which you wont a lot of the time and your RIO are horrendous.

Re: I fold top pair on turn
 

flop peel is bad on this board. serious RIO here. all of your pair outs are tainted and/or set up redraws

Re: I fold top pair on turn
 

for future reference, if you are peeling the flop with no pair and no draw and 1 over, when you actually hit your over, and you still have to fold, that means you should have probably folded the flop.

i don't care what calculations you send at me, that's the worst flop call I've seen in awhile.

turn fold looks ok.

Re: I fold top pair on turn
 

This turn fold must be correct

Re: I fold top pair on turn
 

rio isn't just paying off with losers, it's also not being able to take winners to showdown. you are posting this because you KNOW you are sometimes good here -- you're just wondering if you're getting the pot odds to try to showdown. that means some fraction of the time you are admitting you can't realize the entire 10% of your flop equity.

edit: turn fold is clear IMO

Re: I fold top pair on turn
 

Lol at someone telling me I fold too much.

Re: I fold top pair on turn
 

Lol at pokerstove showing 10% equity being justification for flop peel

Re: I fold top pair on turn
 

Without reading any of the follow ups, I fold flop and fold turn.

To a SB 3 better I would probably need a couple of backdoors and/or a gutshot at least to peel that flop.

Re: I fold top pair on turn
 

oh yah, and I fold preflop as well. Q7 is a pretty ragged hand even if it is sooted

Q8s is my cutoff because it can make a straight, but I don't always raise it. depends on the players behind me

Q9s is a raise fo sho

Re: I fold top pair on turn
 

Q9s is my default cutoff.

Re: I fold top pair on turn
 

Q8s co here i raise Q9s mdp is it to loose??

Re: I fold top pair on turn
 

[ QUOTE ]
Q8s co here i raise Q9s mdp is it to loose??

[/ QUOTE ]

That's my default also.

Re: I fold top pair on turn
 

I based my entire range on Stoxs database I bought from him but I did drop one or two debatable ones.

Re: I fold top pair on turn
 

3-bet the turn...

Re: I fold top pair on turn
 

Q9s is my co standard, but if Btn is not terribly loose or aggro, Q8 is playable

Re: I fold top pair on turn
 

[ QUOTE ]
Q9s is my co standard, but if Btn is not terribly loose or aggro, Q8 is playable

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm going to change my answer

if you actually call this flop, it's your job to 3bet the turn when you hit your "out"

so you hit, 3town

Re: I fold top pair on turn
 

i see stox fold T9o button when always fold.
This hand really don t make money here??
i m a new laptop, little db 25k hand and i m -0.06BB/100, some guy make money with that hand??

Re: I fold top pair on turn
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Q9s is my co standard, but if Btn is not terribly loose or aggro, Q8 is playable

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm going to change my answer

if you actually call this flop, it's your job to 3bet the turn when you hit your "out"

so you hit, 3town

[/ QUOTE ]

While I disagree with the logic in this I probably have to start folding more flops. If nothing else to prevent future flaming in SSSH.

Well at least I made the right decision on the turn.

Preflop is a raise for me and the posts in this thread reasures me that most posters here play to rigid preflop. Q7s is not standard and if both the button and SB were loose i would prolly fold Q9s. However in this spot the button and SB were fairly tight the BB looked bad and my image was good.

Anyways ty for responses and I realize now that the eq calcs actually was an argument for folding teh flop.

Re: I fold top pair on turn
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Q9s is my co standard, but if Btn is not terribly loose or aggro, Q8 is playable

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm going to change my answer

if you actually call this flop, it's your job to 3bet the turn when you hit your "out"

so you hit, 3town

[/ QUOTE ]

While I disagree with the logic in this I probably have to start folding more flops. If nothing else to prevent future flaming in SSSH.

Well at least I made the right decision on the turn.

Preflop is a raise for me and the posts in this thread reasures me that most posters here play to rigid preflop. Q7s is not standard and if both the button and SB were loose i would prolly fold Q9s. However in this spot the button and SB were fairly tight the BB looked bad and my image was good.

Anyways ty for responses and I realize now that the eq calcs actually was an argument for folding teh flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

oink,
my guess is you're running good atm if you're *sure* that opening q7s in the cutoff is the right play. Nobody has enough data on these kinds of things to say for sure and we all know from experience that what "feels" right isn't always +ev.

That said, my "feel" says its probably not a big deal either way if none of the players left to act are lags.

Re: I fold top pair on turn
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Q9s is my co standard, but if Btn is not terribly loose or aggro, Q8 is playable

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm going to change my answer

if you actually call this flop, it's your job to 3bet the turn when you hit your "out"

so you hit, 3town

[/ QUOTE ]

While I disagree with the logic in this I probably have to start folding more flops. If nothing else to prevent future flaming in SSSH.

Well at least I made the right decision on the turn.

Preflop is a raise for me and the posts in this thread reasures me that most posters here play to rigid preflop. Q7s is not standard and if both the button and SB were loose i would prolly fold Q9s. However in this spot the button and SB were fairly tight the BB looked bad and my image was good.

Anyways ty for responses and I realize now that the eq calcs actually was an argument for folding teh flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

oink,
my guess is you're running good atm if you're *sure* that opening q7s in the cutoff is the right play. Nobody has enough data on these kinds of things to say for sure and we all know from experience that what "feels" right isn't always +ev.

That said, my "feel" says its probably not a big deal either way if none of the players left to act are lags.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not confident about Q7s in CO at all. Like you my "feel" is that Q7s (maybe Q6s) is the lowest Qxs I should play here given the table setup. In other spots I would fold Q8s and sometimes Q9s.

Re: I fold top pair on turn
 

PF is meh in a vacuum, whatever. PF is terrible if you can't fold this flop after getting 3-bet.

Re: I fold top pair on turn
 

[ QUOTE ]
PF is meh in a vacuum, whatever. PF is terrible if you can't fold this flop after getting 3-bet.

[/ QUOTE ]
just playing internet poker is terrible in that case, isn't it? sorry oink i really do love your breasts.

Re: I fold top pair on turn
 

[ QUOTE ]
for future reference, if you are peeling the flop with no pair and no draw and 1 over, when you actually hit your over, and you still have to fold, that means you should have probably folded the flop.


[/ QUOTE ]

I only read the first page of replies, but this is what I was thinking. As played, the turn fold is good.

What is OP drawing to on the flop 3-way? A discounted sucker's backdoor straight draw with a weak over? Don't seem like a good idea...

Re: I fold top pair on turn
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
PF is meh in a vacuum, whatever. PF is terrible if you can't fold this flop after getting 3-bet.

[/ QUOTE ]
just playing internet poker is terrible in that case, isn't it? sorry oink i really do love your breasts.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL its cool

I have accepted I made a bad flop peel. But only after mvoss made it clear that I need to control my inner LAG and seek help [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img].

Oh and making references to drunken sessions at AP where I claim to have huge [censored] is totally uncalled for [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]. The owner of that account actually has huge [censored] but those are not for you [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: I fold top pair on turn
 

[ QUOTE ]
The owner of that account actually has huge [censored]

[/ QUOTE ]

Making such claims without any evidence to back it up is completely useless! Now where have I read sentences like that before [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Re: I fold top pair on turn
 

This is gonna get me in trouble [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: I fold top pair on turn
 

This thread is now useless without pics.

Re: I fold top pair on turn
 

[ QUOTE ]
pics plz

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: I fold top pair on turn
 

I'm responding blind:

Wow, that's quite a flop peel.

I would fold the turn.

Re: I fold top pair on turn
 

wow. i turbofold flop.

Re: I fold top pair on turn
 

1 You have been 3 bet pre flop. Not a good sign, and then the BB comes along for the ride. Pre flop you're way behind.
2 you have 1 overcard and the bdstr8 draw. on the flop, peel and see fair enough.
3 The Q hits! And then there's a bet and a raise!

This could mean a number of things but being an optomist you're hand is best a reasonable ammount of the time. They both seem fairly solid agressive players from their stats and you ask how you would play say A9 or jj, if you were them, you would raise to protect your hand. I would protect my hand from the fourth spade with a raise with either of the above two hands and maybe a pocket pair below the board. I also play hands like AJ and AK very agressively if I think my opponent is trying to push me about with a worse ace, especially if I had the As or Ks(I mean the turn raising guy).
What I'm getting at is that the raising guy has worse hand than you a lot of the time. (as does the sb)

Now to raise or call. If we are saying our hand is best a reasonable ammount of the time lets get agressive and 3 bet(just calling gives the guy drawing to the 4th spade a birthday present).

Of course the heavy betting and the solid opponents mean that your'e beat more often than not but the pot is worth fighting for.

When at showdown you get shown AQ or the flush you look stupid, when they show you a9 or jj or some other hand you crush get ready to be happy!

I am showing these hands down more and more vs agressive opponents as I think how would I play the hand with their range. If I can think of hands in their range that I beat than make them pay!

Of course folding the flop is the low variance approach, three betting the turn and trying to get a cheap showdown is the high reward high variance alternative!


PS for those of you critisising OINK's peel it would seem he is the best player here from his posts.

Re: I fold top pair on turn
 

[ QUOTE ]
Of course folding the flop is the low variance approach, three betting the turn and trying to get a cheap showdown is the high reward high variance alternative!


PS for those of you critisising OINK's peel it would seem he is the best player here from his posts.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL, he also admitted that his flop peel was bad.

I think we have AGGROHUSHPOSTER back, but now he's posting under 3 different new sn's.

Re: I fold top pair on turn
 

raising with this hand is clearly -EV and to call on the flop with that texture is even more -EV, you did right to fold on the turn, I'm not saying O7s is totally unplayable, you can sometimes limp in with this hand from the button if many players are in, on the flop you have no pair and no draw, what'a hell where you doing there anyway?