nl cash -- adjusting to limp callers when you\'re oop
 

a fair amount of bad players seem to follow the general heuristics when they limp:

if some guy raises me preflop when i'm in position, i'm going to call almost every time and try to hit a pair. if i hit any pair, definitely call the flop. after i call the flop, try to hit another pair or hope he doesn't bet.

when you see a hand like the one below what kind of adjustments are the best to make at 200bb, 100bb or 50bb?

100bb stacks

2/4 nl
100bb stacks
sb limps. you raise to 20. he calls.

flop (40)
T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
you lead for 30. he calls

turn (100)
5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
you lead for 80. he calls

river (260)
8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
you push. he calls with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: nl cash -- adjusting to limp callers when you\'re oop
 

I struggle with this as well.

Re: nl cash -- adjusting to limp callers when you\'re oop
 

Obviously the best defense is to tighten up your raising range OOP. It's really tough to adjust to passive players that do this since you generally do not get opportunities to CR.

I'm assuming you have a decent hand here, because trying to bluff these guys is going to be -EV OOP almost always. I really dread limp/callers when deep stacked. There's nothing wrong with taking a more passive line when OOP with an overpair or TPTK.

Re: nl cash -- adjusting to limp callers when you\'re oop
 

Bluffing at these guys OOP like this (when you dont have a hand) is suicide. Believe me, I know [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] With people who are really passive, and limps all their hands except the PREMIUM, (you can tell because their raise % is like 8-13) I tend to check rag aces etc, and just punish them IP, constantly putting the pressure on from SB. Alot of these guys like their draws, so betting pot is a good way to extract money from these guys (when you have a hand [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img])

All in all i find these players to not be as profitable as aggro ones. Allthough since they are playing so passively they are probably pretty weak, and will eventually make a big mistake.

Re: nl cash -- adjusting to limp callers when you\'re oop
 

I feel like not playing aggressive against limp callers is correct, you get one huge advantage in that the majority of the pots they play in position will be tiny and the ones you play in position will be bigger, only raise preflop OOP for value and only double and triple barrel in especially good spots.

Re: nl cash -- adjusting to limp callers when you\'re oop
 

So you have these donks who are making a theoretical mistake playing small pots in position by limping and then whahahahaha shows up and corrects their mistake by raising junk OOP. nh.

Re: nl cash -- adjusting to limp callers when you\'re oop
 

My "adjustments" mostly consist in trying not to get sucked out on as much.

Also, rebuying.

Also, immediately refilling to 100 BBs if my first adjustment fails.

You can't stop pummelling his crap range with raises. If he's limp/calling with Q3 and then playing superpassive you give up a lot of value not popping it up with pocket pair and ace-high hands, and good broadway hands.

You will win some hands popping it up with ace high or even king high and then having it checked down.

Re: nl cash -- adjusting to limp callers when you\'re oop
 

I wonder what goes through these players heads. How can you limp with good hands on the button, while calling every raise OOP... so illogical.

Re: nl cash -- adjusting to limp callers when you\'re oop
 

[ QUOTE ]
So you have these donks who are making a theoretical mistake playing small pots in position by limping and then whahahahaha shows up and corrects their mistake by raising junk OOP. nh.

[/ QUOTE ]

Disagree.

Opponent has made another mistake, which is that he's telegraphed the weakness of his hand. Hero can/should raise quality hands for equity and to build a bigger pot because they will hit flops hard.

Don't raise junk, but a range of like top 25% is probably worth popping. Sometimes you will win preflop because he will muck that 94o, sometimes it will get checked down and you will win with underpair or high cards, and since opponent's passive he's not going to exploit position properly.

Re: nl cash -- adjusting to limp callers when you\'re oop
 

[ QUOTE ]
I wonder what goes through these players heads. How can you limp with good hands on the button, while calling every raise OOP... so illogical.

[/ QUOTE ]

SOOOOOOOOOOOTTTEEED

Re: nl cash -- adjusting to limp callers when you\'re oop
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So you have these donks who are making a theoretical mistake playing small pots in position by limping and then whahahahaha shows up and corrects their mistake by raising junk OOP. nh.

[/ QUOTE ]

Disagree.

Opponent has made another mistake, which is that he's telegraphed the weakness of his hand. Hero can/should raise quality hands for equity and to build a bigger pot because they will hit flops hard.

Don't raise junk, but a range of like top 25% is probably worth popping. Sometimes you will win preflop because he will muck that 94o, sometimes it will get checked down and you will win with underpair or high cards, and since opponent's passive he's not going to exploit position properly.

[/ QUOTE ]

You cannot safely build large pots vs passive players who have position.

Re: nl cash -- adjusting to limp callers when you\'re oop
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So you have these donks who are making a theoretical mistake playing small pots in position by limping and then whahahahaha shows up and corrects their mistake by raising junk OOP. nh.

[/ QUOTE ]

Disagree.

Opponent has made another mistake, which is that he's telegraphed the weakness of his hand. Hero can/should raise quality hands for equity and to build a bigger pot because they will hit flops hard.

Don't raise junk, but a range of like top 25% is probably worth popping. Sometimes you will win preflop because he will muck that 94o, sometimes it will get checked down and you will win with underpair or high cards, and since opponent's passive he's not going to exploit position properly.

[/ QUOTE ]

You cannot safely build large pots vs passive players who have position.

[/ QUOTE ]

It depends what he's limping in with. If he's superpassive and is limping in with A4s and KJ and 55, then I agree, you don't want to build pots vs that type of hand in position.

But if he's limping in with Q3o and 85o and 92s (which is more typical) then I'm gonna pop it up and pound away with confidence if I hit TPGK. I want to set up a big turnbet hammerblow. Flop cont bets after popping it up will probably turn only a small profit, but what I'm really looking for is to get a pot-sized bet in on the turn for value with my TPGK hands. It's very difficult to get that big a bet into action OOP vs. a passive opponent in a limped pot; checkraises fail to make big pots when opponent checks behind or bets so small that you can't generate a good-sized checkraise.

Re: nl cash -- adjusting to limp callers when you\'re oop
 

In this particular spot that is untrue because they limp with good and bad hands alike. The reason why good players often have a tendency to attack limps like this is because often players will raise good hands and limp weak ones, but this is not the case here.

Re: nl cash -- adjusting to limp callers when you\'re oop
 

[ QUOTE ]
In this particular spot that is untrue because they limp with good and bad hands alike. The reason why good players often have a tendency to attack limps like this is because often players will raise good hands and limp weak ones, but this is not the case here.

[/ QUOTE ]

OP didn't specify that this was someone who never raised pf... If it's someone who limps 100% of the time, uh, that's just weird. Have to think about how to deal with that.

But if some guy is raising 10% and limping 85% and autocalling raises, which is more likely, then I think it still makes perfect sense to pop their 85% more widely because you will have the opportunity to pound the lower end of that range when it makes one pair. And possibly the opportunity to check down high cards UI and win, again depending on how passive opponent is.

Re: nl cash -- adjusting to limp callers when you\'re oop
 

I just dont think the situation your outlining is realistic or useful in practice, besides raising 10% doesnt necessarily mean top 10%, it usually doesnt with these types of players. You need to take into consideration postflop tendencies as well as preflop tendencies when making these type of decisions.

Re: nl cash -- adjusting to limp callers when you\'re oop
 

[ QUOTE ]
I just dont think the situation your outlining is realistic or useful in practice, besides raising 10% doesnt necessarily mean top 10%, it usually doesnt with these types of players. You need to take into consideration postflop tendencies as well as preflop tendencies when making these type of decisions.

[/ QUOTE ]

My goal is to take a large proportion of his stack when I outflop his Q2 with my QJ or my 333 or whatever. How am I gonna do that if I let him limp in? I'm not.

Letting him play small pots with his dominated/garbage hands, when he's willing to play big pots with his dominated/garbage hands, is an error.

This is assuming he's weak postflop as well. If he's aggressive postflop, then all this goes out the window, but limpy-donks almost never are.