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-   -   My Journey to the Free Market (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=472987)

Borodog 08-09-2007 12:20 AM

My Journey to the Free Market
 
Today it struck me that some people assume that I am just assuming government is bad, and then constructing arguments to support it. In other words they accuse me of assuming my conclusion. Nothing could be further from the truth.

I consider myself extremely lucky that my parents were neither particularly religious, nor political. They never took me to church, nor did they rant about how Democrats were awesome and Republicans were awful (or vice versa). In fact, I cannot remember a single time in my entire life when my parents have talked about either religion or politics (to this very day).

Hence I had preconceived notions. I didn't pay attention in school. Rather I sat in back of the class and read paperback science fiction novels behinf my bookbag. Some of you will no doubt claim this explains my current political philosophy; probably true to a large extent. I read a ton of Heinlein. Anyway, no preconceived notions, right. Religion, when I started paying attention to it, was patently ridiculous. I had fun for a few years when the intarnets became widespread arguing with creationists. Good times.

I avoided politics like the plague; I was a little-l libertarian, because that's the way my parents raised me (although without using the word; I probably never heard the word until I was 27); don't [censored] with other people or their stuff. That was pretty much it. It seemed to me that neither major political party wanted to adhere to such a policy, so [censored] the whole thing.

I did have one strong political, however. I was very much pro gun control. Mostly because I was not raised around guns, and quite frankly was frightened by the very concept of them. I though, "You pretty much point at someone and squeeze and they die."

So anyway, along about the time I was arguing evolution with creationists, I got into an argument on the internet (insert retard image here) about gun control. I lost. Badly. He totally destroyed me. Logically and factually. After I conceded the argument I went out and bought a gun and signed up for a concealed carry class.

At about the same time, I had met and started dating my current wife. She introduced me to the term "libertarianism", and I realized that I was a libertarian; especially with the fall of the gun control position. I started reading everything I could about it. I became extremely excited that there were people in the world who basically thought exactly the way I did.

I became extremely active in the local Libertarian Party. I ran for office several times, including for the State House. I was editor of the state LP newsletter.

Meanwhile I continued to read. And watch. I became aware the the system is completely, totally rigged. The parties in power (if it's even worth using the plural) write the election laws, write the ballot access conditions, draw the electoral districts, have total control over a sycophantic media, etc. I realized that voting is a complete was of time, even if all of that were not true. Lastly, I realized that the LP is the proverbial herd of cats, and is a kook magnet for loons and rejects who have zero knowledge of what the libertarian philosophy is about.

Meanwhile, and I don't exactly recall where, I had discovered Austrian economics.

Wow.

Talk about clicking. Everything about Austrianism reminded me of what I absolutely LOVE about physics. It's beautiful. It's elegant. It's logical. It explains so much about the world. It makes a crazy indecipherable world orderly and simple to understand.

The structure of Austrian economics is not, as people who refuse to even look at it seem to think, founded on the assumption that government is bad. Far, far from it. The modern incarnation of the Austrian School is the Ludwig von Mises branch. Mises emphatically did NOT assume that government was bad. He started out bright-eyed and bushy-railed and socialist, believe that the world need to be made better, and that it was the government should and could do it.

It took years within the bureaucracy of the Austrian government, at a very high level, to change his mind. Mises was not an anarchist. He just observed that government interventions in the economy never have the intended result. They always however seem to have extraordinary deleterious uninetended consequences, and he was capable of reasoning out exactly why.

So the structure of Austrian economics, as formulated by Mises, begins with the axiom of human action, as well as some other a priori truths about human nature, such as time preference. It procedes through an analysis of individual action, including value theory, to an analysis of interaction, including price formation on markets. The Austrian analysis presented in Mises' Human Action, and to an even greater depth in Murray Rothbard's Man, Economy and State, lays out the entire structure of the free market; i.e. a non-intervened in market. An imaginary construction in which there is no violence, no coercion. Only voluntary cooperation.

Only then, after the working of a free market has been carefully elaborated, do the Austrians go on to examine the logical results of different types of interventions. They do this completely in the absence of any value judgement about whether intervention is normatively good or bad, or whether the intentions of those who intervene in the market are good or bad. They simply look at the logical implications. Price ceilings cause shortages, price floors cause surplusses, etc. Artificial credit expansion causes a transfer of wealth, a misallocation of resources, an unsustainable economic boom that must be followed by a painful period of liquidation of malinvestments and capital abandonment and reallocation.

The result of these analyses is that interventions in the market always cause distortions, always have deleterious unintended consequences. They always lead to a lowering of the standard of living for the majority of market participants.

Only at this point is the Austrian, unless he is quite pathological, forced by reason to conclude that "government is bad". Austrians are forced by reason to become, at the very least, minarchists. Since the position that the Austrian is then forced to accept, that voluntary transactions produce the best results, is actually the Golden Rule by which most people try to follow in their personal lives any way (no matter how imperfectly), it is easy to then adopt the libertarian ethical framework. Austrians don't start out as libertariasn, reason leads them to it.

Personally, I don't understand how there can possibly be any Austrians who are not yet full blown anarchists, but they do exist. Over the 4 or 5 years since I've counted myself as an armchair Austrian, it seems that the fraction of minarchists has been slowly declining, and the fraction that are anarchists slowly increasing, so that's at least a good sign.

Free market philosophy is supported by what I call the "triple coincidence"; it is system of social organization which is at once natural, ethical, and produces the best results. I believe the first two can in fact be objectively shown, although it is not necessary, and have little qualms about my subjective definition of "best" for the third, as I believe that the vast majority of people would agree with me: I subjectively define the best system of social organization to be one that produces the highest standard of living possible for the most number of people possible.

There is no assumption that government is bad. There is no assumption that those within government have to be bad or evil (although I believe the system selects for those properties). There is no assumption that all persons behave as some sort of ridiculous Homo economics perfectly-rational game-theoretical profit-maximizing[/i] charicatures of human beings; do not confuse the logic of the analysis with some sort of assumption that Austrians rely on all people being robotic Spocks; they don't (this is precisely one of the things that Austrians criticize mainstream economists and the classical economists about; making unfounded assumptions about how or why or what people will choose). None of these assumptions are necessary, so I do not make them.

I hope that explains a little bit of where I'm coming from.

bills217 08-09-2007 12:29 AM

Re: My Journey to the Free Market
 
A+ would read again

http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2005/images/11...eerleaders.jpg

Steven Bickford 08-09-2007 12:50 AM

Re: My Journey to the Free Market
 
Wow, I think I speak for everyone in this forum when I say that my life has never felt more complete. Finally, I know how Borodog discovered the free market.

I look forward to next week's post entitled, "Nielsio or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Terrorists."

Borodog 08-09-2007 12:54 AM

Re: My Journey to the Free Market
 
[ QUOTE ]
Hence I had no preconceived notions.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hate noticing typos after the edit period has expired. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Bill Haywood 08-09-2007 01:11 AM

Re: My Journey to the Free Market
 
Mises economics is interesting and compelling, like exquisitely ordered ripples in sand dunes.

But it's all economics, no thought as to how society can be persuaded to adopt AC.

You have yet to seriously engage with the political impossibilities, but then dance away or get snippy when anyone presses you on it.

The enormous interests vested in the state cannot be driven off without creating a state-like apparatus to do it.

Please address this in a serious, respectful manner.

UlidEyes 08-09-2007 01:11 AM

Re: My Journey to the Free Market
 
maybe you should preface every one of your posts with a link to this post

Borodog 08-09-2007 01:13 AM

Re: My Journey to the Free Market
 
[ QUOTE ]
Mises economics is interesting and compelling, like exquisitely ordered ripples in sand dunes.

But it's all economics, no thought as to how society can be persuaded to adopt AC.

You have yet to seriously engage with the political impossibilities, but then dance away or get snippy when anyone presses you on it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me know when you start engaging in logic, and we'll talk about it.

LetItBe 08-09-2007 01:14 AM

Re: My Journey to the Free Market
 
Excellent read.

Borodog 08-09-2007 01:19 AM

Re: My Journey to the Free Market
 
[ QUOTE ]
The structure of Austrian economics is not, as people who refuse to even look at it seem to think, founded on the assumption that government is bad. Far, far from it. The modern incarnation of the Austrian School is the Ludwig von Mises branch. Mises emphatically did NOT assume that government was bad. He started out bright-eyed and bushy-railed and socialist, believe that the world need to be made better, and that it was the government should and could do it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is the single most typo-ridden paragraph I have ever written. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Bill Haywood 08-09-2007 01:22 AM

Re: My Journey to the Free Market
 

[ QUOTE ]
Let me know when you start engaging in logic, and we'll talk about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

You sir, are a coward.

iron81 08-09-2007 01:23 AM

Re: My Journey to the Free Market
 
Settle down you two.

Borodog 08-09-2007 01:26 AM

Re: My Journey to the Free Market
 
[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Let me know when you start engaging in logic, and we'll talk about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

You sir, are a coward.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice.

Do you concede that the free market is better than the state at organizing society and solving individual and societal problems or not?

If you do, just say so. If you don't, what point is there in talking about how to get to something that you're not interested in going to?

Borodog 08-09-2007 01:26 AM

Re: My Journey to the Free Market
 
[ QUOTE ]
Settle down you two.

[/ QUOTE ]

He started it!

Bill Haywood 08-09-2007 01:33 AM

Re: My Journey to the Free Market
 
[ QUOTE ]
what point is there in talking about how to get to something that you're not interested in going to?

[/ QUOTE ]

To demonstrate to other readers that AC is worth considering.

Borodog 08-09-2007 01:38 AM

Re: My Journey to the Free Market
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
what point is there in talking about how to get to something that you're not interested in going to?

[/ QUOTE ]

To demonstrate to other readers that AC is worth considering.

[/ QUOTE ]

Before anyone will be interested in how to get someplace, you have to convince them that it's worth going there.

elwoodblues 08-09-2007 01:44 AM

Re: My Journey to the Free Market
 
Interesting.

What I find quite peculiar is your discussion of your parents. You say that your parents never talked about religion and assume for some reason that NEVER talking about religion doesn't instill any preconcieved notions about religion. Similarly your parents NEVER talked about politics though "I was a little-l libertarian, because that's the way my parents raised me (although without using the word; I probably never heard the word until I was 27); don't [censored] with other people or their stuff. "

I find it a difficult pill to swallow that you "had not preconceived notions" yet you turned out just how your parents raised you in terms of both political and religious beliefs (though not, obviously, in how you vocalize those beliefs.)

Bill Haywood 08-09-2007 01:47 AM

Re: My Journey to the Free Market
 
[ QUOTE ]
Before anyone will be interested in how to get someplace, you have to convince them that it's worth going there.

[/ QUOTE ]

This board is full of people who are convinced.

Now tell them how.

owsley 08-09-2007 01:47 AM

Re: My Journey to the Free Market
 
[ QUOTE ]
Mises economics is interesting and compelling, like exquisitely ordered ripples in sand dunes.

But it's all economics, no thought as to how society can be persuaded to adopt AC.

You have yet to seriously engage with the political impossibilities, but then dance away or get snippy when anyone presses you on it.

The enormous interests vested in the state cannot be driven off without creating a state-like apparatus to do it.

Please address this in a serious, respectful manner.

[/ QUOTE ]

People who talk like this about Austrian economics usually don't understand it very well. There are effective and interesting criticisms of ACism that are worth talking about, but people who just say "blah blah clever in theory but is impractical, couldnt be implemented in reality blah blah never gonna happen" usually dont understand the theory that well.

Scary_Tiger 08-09-2007 01:49 AM

Re: My Journey to the Free Market
 
How come I found out about Dr. Paul hiring your wife from another forum?

Like seriously?

Borodog 08-09-2007 01:51 AM

Re: My Journey to the Free Market
 
[ QUOTE ]
Interesting.

What I find quite peculiar is your discussion of your parents. You say that your parents never talked about religion and assume for some reason that NEVER talking about religion doesn't instill any preconcieved notions about religion. Similarly your parents NEVER talked about politics though "I was a little-l libertarian, because that's the way my parents raised me (although without using the word; I probably never heard the word until I was 27); don't [censored] with other people or their stuff. "

I find it a difficult pill to swallow that you "had not preconceived notions" yet you turned out just how your parents raised you in terms of both political and religious beliefs (though not, obviously, in how you vocalize those beliefs.)

[/ QUOTE ]

I have no idea what, if any, political or religious beliefs my parents hold. They didn't raise me to be "libertarian", they just raised me not to hurt people or steal.

My parents never raised me to be religious, nor did they ever say religious people are idiots/kooks/wackos/etc. They never said anything either way. They never talked about politics or government at all, not good, not bad. I wasn't homeschooled on a compound somewhere and told the gummint was bad or told about my "civic duty" or something and sent off to a military academy.

If that doesn't leave me without preconceived notions on the two subjects, I don't know what kind of upbringing possibly could.

Bill Haywood 08-09-2007 01:58 AM

Re: My Journey to the Free Market
 
[ QUOTE ]
People who talk like this about Austrian economics usually don't understand it very well.

[/ QUOTE ]

You guys have no idea how to end the state, not even platitudes or sophistry.

slickpoppa 08-09-2007 01:59 AM

Re: My Journey to the Free Market
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Mises economics is interesting and compelling, like exquisitely ordered ripples in sand dunes.

But it's all economics, no thought as to how society can be persuaded to adopt AC.

You have yet to seriously engage with the political impossibilities, but then dance away or get snippy when anyone presses you on it.

The enormous interests vested in the state cannot be driven off without creating a state-like apparatus to do it.

Please address this in a serious, respectful manner.

[/ QUOTE ]

People who talk like this about Austrian economics usually don't understand it very well. There are effective and interesting criticisms of ACism that are worth talking about, but people who just say "blah blah clever in theory but is impractical, couldnt be implemented in reality blah blah never gonna happen" usually dont understand the theory that well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? My contention is that those who think ACism could be implemented in reality usually don't understand the theory that well.

Making unsupported assertions is fun.

Borodog 08-09-2007 01:59 AM

Re: My Journey to the Free Market
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Before anyone will be interested in how to get someplace, you have to convince them that it's worth going there.

[/ QUOTE ]

This board is full of people who are convinced.

Now tell them how.

[/ QUOTE ]

They already know how. You're the one having trouble comprehending, and you're the one who doesn't think it's worth getting there.

I may just make an OP on the topic, though. But alas, I'm a libertarian. You can't MAKE me do it.

[img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Borodog 08-09-2007 02:01 AM

Re: My Journey to the Free Market
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
People who talk like this about Austrian economics usually don't understand it very well.

[/ QUOTE ]

You guys have no idea how to end the state, not even platitudes or sophistry.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why did you quote this in a response to a post of mine? It makes it look like you are responding to something I said.

Copernicus 08-09-2007 02:23 AM

Re: My Journey to the Free Market
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Mises economics is interesting and compelling, like exquisitely ordered ripples in sand dunes.

But it's all economics, no thought as to how society can be persuaded to adopt AC.

You have yet to seriously engage with the political impossibilities, but then dance away or get snippy when anyone presses you on it.

The enormous interests vested in the state cannot be driven off without creating a state-like apparatus to do it.

Please address this in a serious, respectful manner.

[/ QUOTE ]

People who talk like this about Austrian economics usually don't understand it very well. There are effective and interesting criticisms of ACism that are worth talking about, but people who just say "blah blah clever in theory but is impractical, couldnt be implemented in reality blah blah never gonna happen" usually dont understand the theory that well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? My contention is that those who think ACism could be implemented in reality usually don't understand the theory that well.

Making unsupported assertions is fun.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think they understand the theory just fine, its not all that complex. Its reality that they dont understand.

mmbt0ne 08-09-2007 02:53 AM

Re: My Journey to the Free Market
 
[ QUOTE ]
If that doesn't leave me without preconceived notions on the two subjects, I don't know what kind of upbringing possibly could.


[/ QUOTE ]

None. It's impossible not to have preconceived notions simply because you didn't explicitly talk about or experience something.

Look at what you said about guns for an example:

[ QUOTE ]
I did have one strong political, however. I was very much pro gun control. Mostly because I was not raised around guns, and quite frankly was frightened by the very concept of them.

[/ QUOTE ]

W brad 08-09-2007 08:01 AM

Re: My Journey to the Free Market
 
A nice post, especially about your political awakening, but there are flaws in your perception, mostly what you wrote in this paragraph:
[ QUOTE ]
Meanwhile I continued to read. And watch. I became aware the the system is completely, totally rigged. The parties in power (if it's even worth using the plural) write the election laws, write the ballot access conditions, draw the electoral districts, have total control over a sycophantic media, etc. I realized that voting is a complete was of time, even if all of that were not true. Lastly, I realized that the LP is the proverbial herd of cats, and is a kook magnet for loons and rejects who have zero knowledge of what the libertarian philosophy is about.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ballot access is not as hard as you may think. Once gained it only takes typically 5% of the vote to keep a spot on the ballot. Minor parties often achieve this one election but then fail to hold onto it again in the next election. In winner take all elections, 5% is a very reasonable floor to avoid cluttering the ballot. And signature requirements, while bothersome, are not all that hard to achieve either, proven by the simple fact that many candidates achieve it all the time.

It is easy to blame election systemic issues for minor party woes, but the truth is simply that the minor party has failed to convince enough people to support their positions and vote for them. If you had ideas that a significant segment of the population supported, nothing could stop you from being a big factor in every election and would have automatic ballot access as well.

Then you mention a sycophantic media. What rot. There are people of all persuasions in the media, more than willing to write about all sorts of ideas and programs. But they also want to write about things that are relevant to real people. Once again, it is only the fact that a minor party has no traction with the electorate, unable to gain support for their ideas, that leads to the minimal coverage in the media. Why should the media waste time writing about candidates that will receive 1% of the vote? There is nothing sycophantic about a reporter deciding to write about only candidates and parties that have a real chance to win. It's just plain good sense. If you want the media to be "sycophantic" towards you, sell your ideas to more people and become a party that does pretty well in elections (even as little as 15% should do the trick). There are no restrictions on free speech that are preventing you from doing this.

You say you realised that voting is a complete waste of time, but in truth I think you realised that you were selling something that very very few people wanted and it was painful for you to be reminded of this every time there was an election. Don't blame society for your failure to sell your ideas to a critical mass of people. If your ideas were truly good ones, you could succeed in selling them. That you have failed to do so year after year says a lot more about the ideas you are selling than it does about the electoral system or the media.

Bill Haywood 08-09-2007 08:54 AM

Re: My Journey to the Free Market
 
[ QUOTE ]
I may just make an OP on the topic, though.

[/ QUOTE ]


Betcha don't.


[ QUOTE ]
[16:17] Borodog: You want the conspiracy more.

[/ QUOTE ]

The once and future king 08-09-2007 09:12 AM

Re: My Journey to the Free Market
 
[X] Boro updates his blog.

Nielsio 08-09-2007 09:48 AM

Re: My Journey to the Free Market
 
[ QUOTE ]
A+ would read again

http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2005/images/11...eerleaders.jpg

[/ QUOTE ]

Kaj 08-09-2007 11:24 AM

Re: My Journey to the Free Market
 
[ QUOTE ]
I became extremely active in the local Libertarian Party. I ran for office several times, including for the State House.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now it all makes sense. You lost a couple elections and now want to abolish all states. Sore loser.

[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

pvn 08-09-2007 12:23 PM

Re: My Journey to the Free Market
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Before anyone will be interested in how to get someplace, you have to convince them that it's worth going there.

[/ QUOTE ]

This board is full of people who are convinced.

Now tell them how.

[/ QUOTE ]

head asplode.

Omega Mike 08-09-2007 01:20 PM

Re: My Journey to the Free Market
 
Borodog,

You refuse to answer Mr. Haywood's question. How do you create the society you seek in the present environment. Feel free not to limit yourself to the US. For example, imagine you are living in Somalia, how do you create the society in that current modern environment?

iron81 08-09-2007 01:29 PM

Re: My Journey to the Free Market
 
I thought he already did answer it. Once enough people stop paying taxes or work government jobs, government will wither away.

Borodog 08-09-2007 01:47 PM

Re: My Journey to the Free Market
 
[ QUOTE ]
I thought he already did answer it. Once enough people stop paying taxes or work government jobs, government will wither away.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good to know that some people pay attention.

Thanks, iron.

Borodog 08-09-2007 01:48 PM

Re: My Journey to the Free Market
 
[ QUOTE ]
[X] Boro updates his blog.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.

Borodog 08-09-2007 01:54 PM

Re: My Journey to the Free Market
 
[ QUOTE ]
Borodog,

You refuse to answer Mr. Haywood's question. How do you create the society you seek in the present environment.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't. You change the environment. Government is accomplishing this all by itself as its failures continue to mount. In the meantime you educate people, that they don't need gigantic institutions of violence to produce social order.

I'm not sure how many times it will take saying the same thing for you to comprehend.

[ QUOTE ]
Feel free not to limit yourself to the US. For example, imagine you are living in Somalia, how do you create the society in that current modern environment?

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, wonderful. Here comes argumentum ad somalio again.

You don't. Somalia is a barbaric place with little remaining accumulated capital, where government ran to its cataclysmic conclusion, destroying the economy and society with itself.

It remains to be seen whether our fate will be the same.

renodoc 08-09-2007 01:55 PM

Re: My Journey to the Free Market
 
It took me until 41 to find Heinlein, and, well, I grok it.

Borodog 08-09-2007 01:56 PM

Re: My Journey to the Free Market *DELETED*
 
Post deleted by iron81

Bill Haywood 08-09-2007 04:29 PM

Re: My Journey to the Free Market
 
[ QUOTE ]
I thought he already did answer it. Once enough people stop paying taxes or work government jobs, government will wither away.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
You change the environment. Government is accomplishing this all by itself as its failures continue to mount. In the meantime you educate people,

[/ QUOTE ]

These in no way address arguments previously made:

1. People cannot be made to agree on the evils of statism all at the same time, and you have to get 99%, otherwise the remnants inherit the state and keep it going.

2. Education will never persuade those enriched by the state to give it up, and they are vast.

Leninists at least had a plan for dealing with the state -- a vanguard party that would smash it, then take over the remnants. "Education" only wins you the people left out in the cold, and leaves the state intact.

You guys give no thought to what it would actually take to change power relationships. You've made not a ghost of a response to these arguments, just juvenile insults.


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