Strange Question for ACists and libertarians
 

I don't know why I wanted to know this, but I'm curious.

When you guys are at sporting events and/or other public places where the national anthem is played and it's customary to rise and have some kind of attitude of respectful attention, what do you guys do?

The American national anthem, the Star Spangled Banner, is a rather nice poem that celebrates anti-imperialism, so I can understand why it's not exactly in conflict with your philosophy, and you may not mind observing cultural protocols.

But national anthems are by and large meant to evoke some kind of emotional response and instill a sense of attachment, pride, patriotism, etc. in the host nation state.

So I'm wondering:

Re: Strange Question for ACists and libertarians
 

Option 4 was cut off. It should say:

"Sit silently. I won't stand or take my hat off to support this [censored]. They get 30% of my income, now they want me to [censored ] stand, too? What the [censored]. No [censored] way will I be in an extra in my state’s remake of Triumph of the Will. Find yourself another patsy."

Re: Strange Question for ACists and libertarians
 

I generally don't involve myself with such brainless people, but if I do I'll try to make them understand, but only if it's pleasant for myself as well, which is obviously the whole philosophy (no self-sacrifice and such).

Re: Strange Question for ACists and libertarians
 

I stood in silence without hand over heart for the National Anthem but stayed seated during God Bless America at a recent MLB game.

Re: Strange Question for ACists and libertarians
 

Sporting events?

Re: Strange Question for ACists and libertarians
 

I voted option 1. I love the national anthem. I think it's very moving. At the time it was penned the banner represented the fight against oppressive government, and was not a symbol of it. That's how I interpret it.

I will NOT, however, pledge allegiance to a [censored] piece of cloth. I can't even understand how a patriotic statist can buy into that. WTF? It's ridiculous.

Re: Strange Question for ACists and libertarians
 

[ QUOTE ]
I voted option 1. I love the national anthem. I think it's very moving. At the time it was penned the banner represented the fight against oppressive government, and was not a symbol of it. That's how I interpret it.

I will NOT, however, pledge allegiance to a [censored] piece of cloth. I can't even understand how a patriotic statist can buy into that. WTF? It's ridiculous.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Strange Question for ACists and libertarians
 

If I'm around friends, I stand silently, then I usually whisper, "[censored] America," right at the very end of the anthem, just loudly enough for the one nearest me to hear it.

Edited to add: Can also be replaced with, "[censored] the troops," if there is some sort of formal recognition of American soldiers' presence at the event.

<font color="white"> Edit in white: Tongue-in-cheek, of course. I wish harm on no individual. </font>

Re: Strange Question for ACists and libertarians
 

[ QUOTE ]
I voted option 1. I love the national anthem. I think it's very moving. At the time it was penned the banner represented the fight against oppressive government, and was not a symbol of it. That's how I interpret it.

I will NOT, however, pledge allegiance to a [censored] piece of cloth. I can't even understand how a patriotic statist can buy into that. WTF? It's ridiculous.

[/ QUOTE ]

I used to think the exact same way.

I now cry a little inside when I hear about the land of the free and home of the brave. Those terms have been so bastardized, it's just sad. We as a people have squandered such promise to be an example of all that can be good in the world. No other society in history had the opportunity we did as the last superpower standing, and we flat out blew it, and are blowing it more every day. Watching my fellow countrymen sing those words almost makes me angry that they can be so naive. (Actually, many aren't naive at all, they know full well what they're supporting and don't mind it one bit; e.g., Copernicus and FelixN.)

Re: Strange Question for ACists and libertarians
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I voted option 1. I love the national anthem. I think it's very moving. At the time it was penned the banner represented the fight against oppressive government, and was not a symbol of it. That's how I interpret it.

I will NOT, however, pledge allegiance to a [censored] piece of cloth. I can't even understand how a patriotic statist can buy into that. WTF? It's ridiculous.

[/ QUOTE ]

I used to think the exact same way.

I now cry a little inside when I hear about the land of the free and home of the brave. Those terms have been so bastardized, it's just sad. We as a people have squandered such promise to be an example of all that can be good in the world. No other society in history had the opportunity we did as the last superpower standing, and we flat out blew it, and are blowing it more every day. Watching my fellow countrymen sing those words almost makes me angry that they can be so naive. (Actually, many aren't naive at all, they know full well what they're supporting and don't mind it one bit; e.g., Copernicus and FelixN.)

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT

Re: Strange Question for ACists and libertarians
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I voted option 1. I love the national anthem. I think it's very moving. At the time it was penned the banner represented the fight against oppressive government, and was not a symbol of it. That's how I interpret it.

I will NOT, however, pledge allegiance to a [censored] piece of cloth. I can't even understand how a patriotic statist can buy into that. WTF? It's ridiculous.

[/ QUOTE ]

I used to think the exact same way.

I now cry a little inside when I hear about the land of the free and home of the brave. Those terms have been so bastardized, it's just sad. We as a people have squandered such promise to be an example of all that can be good in the world. No other society in history had the opportunity we did as the last superpower standing, and we flat out blew it, and are blowing it more every day. Watching my fellow countrymen sing those words almost makes me angry that they can be so naive. (Actually, many aren't naive at all, they know full well what they're supporting and don't mind it one bit; e.g., Copernicus and FelixN.)

[/ QUOTE ]

There is a big difference between "not minding it one bit" and recgonizing that the real world sometimes involves compromising in order to survive. Don't put words in my mouth or assume you know what I think.

Re: Strange Question for ACists and libertarians
 

Can I answer? I'm not AC, but I am a civil libertarian who thinks that patriotism tends to be harmful in the long run.

Anyway, I take off my cap and stand quietly out of respect for my fellow fans. Many of them feel strongly about the anthem and our country, and it would be very rude of me to offend them. Ditto for church services.

Re: Strange Question for ACists and libertarians
 

[ QUOTE ]
Can I answer? I'm not AC, but I am a civil libertarian who thinks that patriotism tends to be harmful in the long run.

Anyway, I take off my cap and stand quietly out of respect for my fellow fans. Many of them feel strongly about the anthem and our country, and it would be very rude of me to offend them. Ditto for church services.

[/ QUOTE ]

Patriotism is the fabric that holds a nation together and unites people that do not agree with each other 100% of the time and binds them to a common cause. Lack of patriotism is the reason Congress looks more like Parliament than it does the Congresses of the 60s through 80s and the reason that selfish interests trump the national interest. It is isnt patriotism itself that can be harmful in the long run, it is allowing patriotism to replace rational thought. One doesnt necessarily lead to the other.

Re: Strange Question for ACists and libertarians
 

Patriotism has its upsides, but I feel that it encourages people to give the needs of their fellow citizens more weight than those of foreigners, which may lead to a sub-optimal allocation of resources. Among our less than thoughtful countrymen, patriotism becomes a culturally acceptable mask for xenophobia and ignorance. Patriotism usually implies that one's own country is particularly excellent or deserving of praise, which itself necessarily implies that other countries are less than excellent. This line of thinking makes it easier for citizens of all countries to rationalize war with other peoples.

Now that we understand each other, [/hijack].

Re: Strange Question for ACists and libertarians
 

[ QUOTE ]
Patriotism has its upsides, but I feel that it encourages people to give the needs of their fellow citizens more weight than those of foreigners, which may lead to a sub-optimal allocation of resources. Among our less than thoughtful countrymen, patriotism becomes a culturally acceptable mask for xenophobia and ignorance. Patriotism usually implies that one's own country is particularly excellent or deserving of praise, which itself necessarily implies that other countries are less than excellent. This line of thinking makes it easier for citizens of all countries to rationalize war with other peoples.


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with your analysis completely, which means I fail to see the upside.

Re: Strange Question for ACists and libertarians
 

lmao. Option 2 ftw.

Re: Strange Question for ACists and libertarians
 

lol, I am going to start doing a *coughcough [censored] the troops coughcough* as people are standing up to start singing, hopefully I can get the timing down to where they realize what I said but dont have time to respond, then forget about it in the 2 minutes of singing.

Re: Strange Question for ACists and libertarians
 

[ QUOTE ]
lol, I am going to start doing a *coughcough [censored] the troops coughcough* as people are standing up to start singing, hopefully I can get the timing down to where they realize what I said but dont have time to respond, then forget about it in the 2 minutes of singing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Make sure your insurance is up to date.

Re: Strange Question for ACists and libertarians
 

It might also be a nice segway to a, "Oh I'm sorry, I thought this was America!"

http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/7...14randyco4.jpg

Re: Strange Question for ACists and libertarians
 

[ QUOTE ]
I voted option 1. I love the national anthem. I think it's very moving. At the time it was penned the banner represented the fight against oppressive government, and was not a symbol of it. That's how I interpret it.

[/ QUOTE ]
QFT. I usually get goosebumps towards the end.

Re: Strange Question for ACists and libertarians
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I voted option 1. I love the national anthem. I think it's very moving. At the time it was penned the banner represented the fight against oppressive government, and was not a symbol of it. That's how I interpret it.

[/ QUOTE ]
QFT. I usually get goosebumps towards the end.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didnt taint the poll by voting, since it was restricted. I sing ours and the Canadian anthem when its played, even though Im not Canadian. They are both very moving and reflect on the best of Western values.

As far as Owsley goes, I respect his right to free speech. As a veteran I also hope he pulls that in the midst of a group of veterans and they teach him a life long lesson about the practical limits of free speech.

Re: Strange Question for ACists and libertarians
 

[ QUOTE ]
The American national anthem, the Star Spangled Banner, is a rather nice poem that celebrates anti-imperialism,

[/ QUOTE ]

It was written concerning the War of 1812, so it's not celebrating anti-imperialism, it's celebrating invading Canada. And that's something I think we can all agree on celebrating.

Re: Strange Question for ACists and libertarians
 

Used to be #1. Now more like #2. I liked Kaj's response -- the irony of the crowds so willing to flush our freedoms straight down the crapper for a hollow promise of safety, even as they sing about "the land of the free and the home of the brave" has become just a bit too distracting for me to really appreciate the beauty of the song anymore.

Re: Strange Question for ACists and libertarians
 

[ QUOTE ]
I voted option 1. I love the national anthem. I think it's very moving. At the time it was penned the banner represented the fight against oppressive government, and was not a symbol of it. That's how I interpret it.

I will NOT, however, pledge allegiance to a [censored] piece of cloth. I can't even understand how a patriotic statist can buy into that. WTF? It's ridiculous.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's weird to remember how very important I used to think it was as a kid. To have even questioned 'my duty' to do this was unthinkable. It seems the majority of adults feel this way still today. Wath % of adults would you estimate feel this way?

Re: Strange Question for ACists and libertarians
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I voted option 1. I love the national anthem. I think it's very moving. At the time it was penned the banner represented the fight against oppressive government, and was not a symbol of it. That's how I interpret it.

I will NOT, however, pledge allegiance to a [censored] piece of cloth. I can't even understand how a patriotic statist can buy into that. WTF? It's ridiculous.

[/ QUOTE ]

I used to think the exact same way.

I now cry a little inside when I hear about the land of the free and home of the brave. Those terms have been so bastardized, it's just sad. We as a people have squandered such promise to be an example of all that can be good in the world. No other society in history had the opportunity we did as the last superpower standing, and we flat out blew it, and are blowing it more every day. Watching my fellow countrymen sing those words almost makes me angry that they can be so naive. (Actually, many aren't naive at all, they know full well what they're supporting and don't mind it one bit; e.g., Copernicus and FelixN.)

[/ QUOTE ]

There is a big difference between "not minding it one bit" and recgonizing that the real world sometimes involves compromising in order to survive. Don't put words in my mouth or assume you know what I think.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you admit that you don't mind sacrificing freedoms and principles for perceived security. Which was the point.

Re: Strange Question for ACists and libertarians
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I voted option 1. I love the national anthem. I think it's very moving. At the time it was penned the banner represented the fight against oppressive government, and was not a symbol of it. That's how I interpret it.

I will NOT, however, pledge allegiance to a [censored] piece of cloth. I can't even understand how a patriotic statist can buy into that. WTF? It's ridiculous.

[/ QUOTE ]

I used to think the exact same way.

I now cry a little inside when I hear about the land of the free and home of the brave. Those terms have been so bastardized, it's just sad. We as a people have squandered such promise to be an example of all that can be good in the world. No other society in history had the opportunity we did as the last superpower standing, and we flat out blew it, and are blowing it more every day. Watching my fellow countrymen sing those words almost makes me angry that they can be so naive. (Actually, many aren't naive at all, they know full well what they're supporting and don't mind it one bit; e.g., Copernicus and FelixN.)

[/ QUOTE ]

There is a big difference between "not minding it one bit" and recgonizing that the real world sometimes involves compromising in order to survive. Don't put words in my mouth or assume you know what I think.

[/ QUOTE ]
*shoves words in mouth*

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Strange Question for ACists and libertarians
 

[ QUOTE ]
Lack of patriotism is the reason Congress looks more like Parliament than it does the Congresses of the 60s through 80s

[/ QUOTE ]

You mean the Congresses of the 60s thru 80s that were funding numerous secret wars, a full-scale war against a people who were zero threat to us which cost hundreds of thousands of lives, a hyped up struggle against a former superpower that history shows was more afraid of our aggression than we were of theirs, numerous smaller conflicts, and then entrenched the military-industrial-congressional complex to such a degree that we never truly have been in a peacetime mode since?

Well, sir, I can do without that kind of patriotism from my leaders.

Re: Strange Question for ACists and libertarians
 

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I voted option 1. I love the national anthem. I think it's very moving. At the time it was penned the banner represented the fight against oppressive government, and was not a symbol of it. That's how I interpret it.

I will NOT, however, pledge allegiance to a [censored] piece of cloth. I can't even understand how a patriotic statist can buy into that. WTF? It's ridiculous.

[/ QUOTE ]

I used to think the exact same way.

I now cry a little inside when I hear about the land of the free and home of the brave. Those terms have been so bastardized, it's just sad. We as a people have squandered such promise to be an example of all that can be good in the world. No other society in history had the opportunity we did as the last superpower standing, and we flat out blew it, and are blowing it more every day. Watching my fellow countrymen sing those words almost makes me angry that they can be so naive. (Actually, many aren't naive at all, they know full well what they're supporting and don't mind it one bit; e.g., Copernicus and FelixN.)

[/ QUOTE ]

There is a big difference between "not minding it one bit" and recgonizing that the real world sometimes involves compromising in order to survive. Don't put words in my mouth or assume you know what I think.

[/ QUOTE ]
*shoves words in mouth*

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

He has told us what he thinks in hundreds of posts. And these posts make it clear that he is on the side of reducing freedoms and going against our principles in order to enhance our security. See his recent thread about justifying allying with and arming dictators like Saddam Hussein. You can't make posts like this every day and then pretend we're in no position to judge what you think on this subject.

Re: Strange Question for ACists and libertarians
 

[ QUOTE ]
I voted option 1. I love the national anthem. I think it's very moving. At the time it was penned the banner represented the fight against oppressive government, and was not a symbol of it. That's how I interpret it.

I will NOT, however, pledge allegiance to a [censored] piece of cloth. I can't even understand how a patriotic statist can buy into that. WTF? It's ridiculous.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh wow, did not expect this. Agree 100%. I stand for the anthem, I never did the pledge in school, seems oddly close to the third reich to me.

I'd much rather say a pledge to ideals then a construct, even if that construct came out of those ideals.

Cody

Re: Strange Question for ACists and libertarians
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'd much rather say a pledge to ideals then a construct, even if that construct came out of those ideals.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's well put. I might have to use that (with citation). [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Strange Question for ACists and libertarians
 

Where's my "Sing loudly and horribly off key" option? This works best at a baseball game after 8-14 beers.

Re: Strange Question for ACists and libertarians
 

[ QUOTE ]
I voted option 1. I love the national anthem. I think it's very moving. At the time it was penned the banner represented the fight against oppressive government, and was not a symbol of it. That's how I interpret it.

I will NOT, however, pledge allegiance to a [censored] piece of cloth. I can't even understand how a patriotic statist can buy into that. WTF? It's ridiculous.

[/ QUOTE ]

For the history buffs out there, note that the current "salute" of placing your hand over your heart was not the salute that the author of the pledge originally intended.

http://img.search.com/thumb/2/28/189...llegiance2.jpg

Francis Bellamy, you're a true american hero!

Re: Strange Question for ACists and libertarians
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Can I answer? I'm not AC, but I am a civil libertarian who thinks that patriotism tends to be harmful in the long run.

Anyway, I take off my cap and stand quietly out of respect for my fellow fans. Many of them feel strongly about the anthem and our country, and it would be very rude of me to offend them. Ditto for church services.

[/ QUOTE ]

Patriotism is the fabric that holds a nation together and unites people that do not agree with each other 100% of the time and binds them to a common cause. Lack of patriotism is the reason Congress looks more like Parliament than it does the Congresses of the 60s through 80s and the reason that selfish interests trump the national interest. It is isnt patriotism itself that can be harmful in the long run, it is allowing patriotism to replace rational thought. One doesnt necessarily lead to the other.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's a question being begged here...

Re: Strange Question for ACists and libertarians
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I voted option 1. I love the national anthem. I think it's very moving. At the time it was penned the banner represented the fight against oppressive government, and was not a symbol of it. That's how I interpret it.

I will NOT, however, pledge allegiance to a [censored] piece of cloth. I can't even understand how a patriotic statist can buy into that. WTF? It's ridiculous.

[/ QUOTE ]

For the history buffs out there, note that the current "salute" of placing your hand over your heart was not the salute that the author of the pledge originally intended.

http://img.search.com/thumb/2/28/189...llegiance2.jpg

Francis Bellamy, you're a true american hero!

[/ QUOTE ]

You're fond of posting that but the pledge was published on September 7, 1892. That's a while before 1933, so the Nazi comparisons seem a little off.

Cody

Re: Strange Question for ACists and libertarians
 

Love the song; just hope that people actually realize what the hell they're actually singing. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: Strange Question for ACists and libertarians
 

America The Beautiful &gt; The Star Spangled Banner. Here's a link to the lyrics. I'd suggest reading them. It emphasizes our nation's natural beauty, our thirst for freedom, and pursuing "liberty in law." Certainly a better message than the resiliency of a large piece of fabric.

http://www.scoutsongs.com/lyrics/ame...beautiful.html

Re: Strange Question for ACists and libertarians
 

you a bit off on your math for #4

its more like 50% of your income once you figure all the hidden and multiple taxes, fees , and sunken costs.

Re: Strange Question for ACists and libertarians
 

All of those patriotic songs are dumb. I just stand up and eat some popcorn or whatever while they're singing it. In elementary school, the teachers tried to make everyone say the pledge of allegiance every morning. I never did, mainly because of the God part. I didn't really understand what it meant, but I knew it was BS.

Re: Strange Question for ACists and libertarians
 

[ QUOTE ]
I generally don't involve myself with such brainless people, but if I do I'll try to make them understand, but only if it's pleasant for myself as well, which is obviously the whole philosophy (no self-sacrifice and such).

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's vote on what Nielso is trying to say here.

Re: Strange Question for ACists and libertarians
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I generally don't involve myself with such brainless people, but if I do I'll try to make them understand, but only if it's pleasant for myself as well, which is obviously the whole philosophy (no self-sacrifice and such).

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's vote on what Nielso is trying to say here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its a combination of the first 3 with the added largest component "We ACists would never leave our computers because we're too tied up in fantasy games".