200NL - Two pair gets 3bet on the turn, standard fold or weak?
 

Villain in this hand is 19/15/infinity over like 40 hands, I haven't seen him get out of line yet. I feel like his 3-betting range is crushing me, and his bet sizing makes it look like he definitely wants a call. Still though, I thought I should get some feedback on the hand, because it does feel a bit weak. Does anyone advocate taking a different line at any point? I know my turn raise is small, but I'm not really afraid of any draws and I want to keep him in with strong one-pair hands.

Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $1/$2 Blinds - 5 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

SB: $245.55
Hero (BB): $320.20
UTG: $273.25
CO: $85.05
BTN: $239.80

Preflop: Hero is dealt 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 Players)
3 folds, <font color="red">SB raises to $6.00</font>, Hero calls $4.00

Flop: ($12) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">SB bets $10.00</font>, Hero calls $10.00

Turn: ($32) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">SB bets $23.00</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $60.00</font>, <font color="red">SB raises to $140.00</font>, Hero folds
Uncalled bet of $80.00 returned to SB

Pot Size: $152.00 ($3 Rake)

Re: 200NL - Two pair gets 3bet on the turn, standard fold or weak?
 

fold pf

then fold the flop

turn fold looks good

Re: 200NL - Two pair gets 3bet on the turn, standard fold or weak?
 

^^ what he said

Re: 200NL - Two pair gets 3bet on the turn, standard fold or weak?
 

[ QUOTE ]
fold pf

then fold the flop

turn fold looks good

[/ QUOTE ]

You think the preflop call is bad getting 2:1 in position in a blind battle where even a tight player will be opening a wide range of hands? Also, is the flop call that bad given that I have a pair and he is probably cbetting here with a lot of hands I beat? This is a bad board to double barrel bluff so I don't expect him to bet the turn unless he has me beat, so I think I can show my hand down cheaply a lot.

Re: 200NL - Two pair gets 3bet on the turn, standard fold or weak?
 

[ QUOTE ]
You think the preflop call is bad getting 2:1 in position in a blind battle where even a tight player will be opening a wide range of hands?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. If you want a blind battle, reraise PF. Otherwise, fold. I'm folding A7s there, much less K7s. 2:1 is great and all in theory, but you aren't all in. What hands are you hoping to make? Ks with 7 kicker? 7 high flop? Flush doesn't come enough times for this to be worth it. You got 2 pair and folded (rightfully), that right there should tell you that playing K7 probably ain't all it's made out to be.

Fold every street as played.

Re: 200NL - Two pair gets 3bet on the turn, standard fold or weak?
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is a bad board to double barrel bluff so I don't expect him to bet the turn unless he has me beat, so I think I can show my hand down cheaply a lot.

[/ QUOTE ]

So what happened to your plan [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

I'd have to throw this away unless you get a read he think TPTK is the nuts here ...

Re: 200NL - Two pair gets 3bet on the turn, standard fold or weak?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is a bad board to double barrel bluff so I don't expect him to bet the turn unless he has me beat, so I think I can show my hand down cheaply a lot.

[/ QUOTE ]

So what happened to your plan [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]


[/ QUOTE ]

I improved and now I'm beating a lot of his range that bets the turn. Obviously I'm pitching the hand on the turn if I don't catch a K or 7 and he bets again.

Re: 200NL - Two pair gets 3bet on the turn, standard fold or weak?
 

when someone with these stats as him raises preflop, this is a def call preflop - think of the amount of flops which he misses and you can either pick up on the flop or float and have on the turn - to fold a7s here is crazy - do people really do this? It makes you incredibly predictable and very easy to read for even an average player. That said, I would flop on the flop and to the turn 3bet here, but I think the turn is closer than people are thinking.

Re: 200NL - Two pair gets 3bet on the turn, standard fold or weak?
 

I disagree with your "amount of flops which he misses and you can either pick up and float and have on turn" statement. The villain is described as "19/15/infinity over like 40 hands" - 40 hands is small, but he doesn't seem like an idiot. If he's stealing, he's cbetting 'bout 100% of the time there, and probably throwing in some CRs the times that he really hits the flop good. What's our plan? To float him with K7 or even A7, every single time we pair a 7 and then make big bet on turn? I'll admit I'm fairly nitty, but this seems too far fetched.

Problem is, we still have no idea where we stand whether we hit the 7 or A. I'd rather do your described call/float plan with something like 87. You just aren't going to be making 2 pair or better enough times to make calling &amp; floating then raising profitable. There are better spots.

Re: 200NL - Two pair gets 3bet on the turn, standard fold or weak?
 

yes he will be cbetting 100% of the time, so why not float with air whenever the board is dry and uncoordinated ie 8 5 2, j 6 5 raindbow etc, and win it on the turn. frankdly if the flop is eg k 7 4 and i have a7 im often (if aggression = infinity) happy to call two streets , because very few people will fire three barrels.
basically, use pokerstove, work out the boards he is unlikely to have a piece of and exploit him. if he refuses to back down in these spots, then nit it up and stack him when you get a hand

Re: 200NL - Two pair gets 3bet on the turn, standard fold or weak?
 

?

Use pokerstove like.. during the hand? Between the ideal situations where you get A7 and he's stealing? What's his range? A lot of villains, myself included, are quite often stealing with any two cards there.

You might be right, and folding K7s or A7s there is a mistake, but all the scenarios you are suggesting are just not practical enough to work, in my opinion. Look at the OP - he pretty much got the perfect float/take away on turn scenario, I don't see him making a better hand than he did too often, and he's still in a [censored] spot.

Anyone else care to chime in? Maybe I'm not seeing it.

Re: 200NL - Two pair gets 3bet on the turn, standard fold or weak?
 

sorry im maybe not explaining myself very well here but if you look at say bottom pairs equity against this guys raising range on flops such as the ones i mentioned earlier you'll see that its surprisingly good. cant do math now as playing, but the point is:
you play a7s k7s etc in this spot because you have position, and against a player like this even if you flop nothing you can exploit him in certain situations because he has nothing. even if he isnt the type to give up on the turn, there will be many situations when you can induce double barrels, etc. In the situation posted the board is too coordinated to do anything but fold, but i feel if you fold hands like this in these situations you're giving up a lot of ev in the long term. of course, if anyone disagrees, i like to hear why

Re: 200NL - Two pair gets 3bet on the turn, standard fold or weak?
 

I have to say I'm genuinely surprised at the number of people here advocating folding preflop/on the flop. I didn't even consider that it might be a leak, but obviously I'll have to think about it some more. That being said, for right now I still think preflop and flop are fine.

Someone advocated folding A7s in the BB to a 3xbb SB open, and that just seems crazy to me. Many players are opening in the SB so lightly that A7s is often well ahead of their range, and I just can't see how it can be right to fold a hand that's ahead of your opponent's range when you're getting 2:1 in position.

Likewise, I don't see how it can be right to fold a pair, even a weak one, for one bet in position on a fairly safe board like this against an aggressive opponent. It seems like we'll be folding the best hand way too often.

But hey, at least everyone agrees with me about the turn fold [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Re: 200NL - Two pair gets 3bet on the turn, standard fold or weak?
 

Even if I may look like a calling station - I'd maybe call that bet and rather prefer to go all-in (after all he has to be afraid of you holding a set or straight).
Possible hands that would be played that way including the re-raise:
77 88 JJ AA
T9 AK KJ K8
Adxd QdTd Qd9d 6d5d
total air (since your raise wasn't THAT big and indicates some weakness)

Re: 200NL - Two pair gets 3bet on the turn, standard fold or weak?
 

preflop, i fold this 100% of the time but i know people who are better than me who regularly call this, so if you have a plan for bluffing if you miss the flop then its a good call. on the turn i push. are you scared of his small turn raise? i know that if he pushed it would be an easy call for me. he could have a lot of FD + gutshot combos, TQ, AA, weaker 2pair, or maybe KA. his small 3bet is scary, but i'm not raising this turn with the intention of folding.

Re: 200NL - Two pair gets 3bet on the turn, standard fold or weak?
 

Why raise the turn if your gonna fold his 3B?

Preflop I like 2 things - to be in position and be the aggressor. Therefore if I decided to play K-7, A-7, wotever, I'm gonna RR PF or just fold.

As played I fold flop, but once you make 2 pr I would get AI on turn

Re: 200NL - Two pair gets 3bet on the turn, standard fold or weak?
 

[ QUOTE ]
preflop, i fold this 100% of the time but i know people who are better than me who regularly call this, so if you have a plan for bluffing if you miss the flop then its a good call. on the turn i push. are you scared of his small turn raise? i know that if he pushed it would be an easy call for me. he could have a lot of FD + gutshot combos, TQ, AA, weaker 2pair, or maybe KA. his small 3bet is scary, but i'm not raising this turn with the intention of folding.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know, I can't see most players at 200NL 3-betting here with AA/AK/draws; I would expect most players holding these hands to just call the raise. The only hand I think I can reasonably put him on that I'm ahead of is 87 or maybe a J8s, while I'm being crushed by sets/KJ/T9.

Re: 200NL - Two pair gets 3bet on the turn, standard fold or weak?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why raise the turn if your gonna fold his 3B?

[/ QUOTE ]

To get value from hands like AK/AA, which (I think) are much more likely to just call me down than to re-raise here.

Re: 200NL - Two pair gets 3bet on the turn, standard fold or weak?
 

folding preflop is so beyond ridiculous

flop is obv standard

turn is close, but yes fold

Re: 200NL - Two pair gets 3bet on the turn, standard fold or weak?
 

If SB is tight/nitty I don't mind folding preflop. My experience is that many of these players hate playing blind vs. blind OOP and when they do raise out of the SB, IME they often show up with a pretty big hand.

Re: 200NL - Two pair gets 3bet on the turn, standard fold or weak?
 

Preflop is a clear call to me, but then you have to be able to win pots where you miss as well. Flop I play the same, but I don't hate a fold. Turn I sometimes just call, depending on opponent. But as played,I would fold to the 3b.