KJs in SB vs PFR
 

Hi,

I'd appreciate comments on this hand.

Thanks in advance.

Poker Room skin
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $0.50/$1
5 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
2 folds, <font color="#cc0000">Button raises</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero 3-bets</font>, BB folds, Button calls.

Flop: 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (6SB, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, Button calls.

Turn: T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img](4BB, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, Button calls.

River: J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img](6BB, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Button raises</font>, Hero calls.

Results:
Final pot: 10BB

--edit: fixed (miss-)converted hand

Re: KJs in SB vs PFR
 

My comment is that Poker room is rigged since the J of clubs gave you both a pair and a flush draw.

I'd fix the hand history since its hard to tell if you have a flush here or not.

Re: KJs in SB vs PFR
 

Assuming it's not supposed to be the Jc on the flop, I play it the same.

I'd like to fold the river though (assuming we don't have a flush), but I'd have a hard time doing it, especially in a btn-blind battle.

Re: KJs in SB vs PFR
 

I play this the same.

I don't know if we're supposed to fold the river here, but I wouldn't.

Re: KJs in SB vs PFR
 

Ok, now that it's edited, I still play it the same.

Re: KJs in SB vs PFR
 

Gosh that's pretty tough. Could he do this with J9? AT? KJ?

It looks like your hand sucks here. If I was villain with KJ, I wouldn't even consider raising this river. But not everyone thinks like me. Even with AJ I'd be hardpressed to raise. Problem is, button should have capped preflop with AK/JJ, especially with his position. So we can discount those hands a bit. K9 is kinda unlikely but possible. What hand raises this river but doesn't raise the flop or the turn? That's the one thing that puzzles me about this hand. I've seen this kind of play before with AA or 55/33. They wait until the river, it's strange. Maybe this is one of those times. But we have no idea if this is the kind of guy to do that.

So I guess this post kinda argues for a bet/call on the river. The only hand that makes any sense is JT, and there are only 2 combinations of that hand.

The only thing that turns this into a fold for me is that villain should expect us to call with AQ, so he shouldn't be doing this with J9. It's even a bit frisky for him to raise this river with JT as you could have AK. This isn't the kind of board that you can raise the river without at least a set.

So because I can't place him on any other hand that beats us other than a strange JT and K9/AK , I'd call. It's just such a puzzle to me what this guy has that I call. I'd have to see it to believe it. Whatever he has, I'm making a note.

Re: KJs in SB vs PFR
 

Like I said, I want to fold the river, but I doubt I would in practice.

Anyone think of a c/c now that we have some showdown value?

Re: KJs in SB vs PFR
 

Dang this hand got a lot more interesting when you corrected it.

There is no way I could c/c the river and I don't think we should.

Also if I'm honest with myself I don't think there is anyway I could b/f the river, but I think maybe we should.

Did he have QJ? I'd think he'd raise the flop. I'm guessing something weird that he slow played, but shouldn't have.

Re: KJs in SB vs PFR
 

As played for me!

Re: KJs in SB vs PFR
 

"There is no way I could c/c the river and I don't think we should."

Given the way the villain played this hand, he most likely either has a passively played Qx, a pokect pair below Qx, or Ace high. If he somehow has just a naked ace like A4/A2 hes probaby gonna fold if we bet the river on that card. If he has a lower pocked pair like 66, he'll probably fold that also. Its very unlikely the villain has a worse Jx that will pay off since that means he would have to either call the flop with nothing or have JcXc and play very passively. For the same reason its very unlikely the villain has Tx. What Im getting at is very simple: Although the Jack on the river makes us a pair this card is a huge action killer for those times we do have the best hand becuz most lesser hands will now fold unless our opponent is an extreme showdown monkey. Obviously if the villain has a better hand than us, hes either calling or raising. So IMO, check/calling the river in this very spot will be the optimal line against most opponents. So I think you should change your opinion on the river play.

"Also if I'm honest with myself I don't think there is anyway I could b/f the river, but I think maybe we should."

I dont understand why this is a tough spot....This is an extremely easy fold once raised. Bet/calling is definitely a large money loser in this spot. This is a check/call or bet/fold situation, and based on the final board and the way this hand played out, Im convinced that check/calling will make/save more money than bet/folding. Since were unlikely to get value from betting, our best chance to make money on the river is to induce a hopeless bluff.

Re: KJs in SB vs PFR
 

You lost to QJ. Tough break. Next hand.

Re: KJs in SB vs PFR
 

[ QUOTE ]
"There is no way I could c/c the river and I don't think we should."

Given the way the villain played this hand, he most likely either has a passively played Qx, a pokect pair below Qx, or Ace high. If he somehow has just a naked ace like A4/A2 hes probaby gonna fold if we bet the river on that card. If he has a lower pocked pair like 66, he'll probably fold that also. Its very unlikely the villain has a worse Jx that will pay off since that means he would have to either call the flop with nothing or have JcXc and play very passively. For the same reason its very unlikely the villain has Tx. What Im getting at is very simple: Although the Jack on the river makes us a pair this card is a huge action killer for those times we do have the best hand becuz most lesser hands will now fold unless our opponent is an extreme showdown monkey. Obviously if the villain has a better hand than us, hes either calling or raising. So IMO, check/calling the river in this very spot will be the optimal line against most opponents. So I think you should change your opinion on the river play.

"Also if I'm honest with myself I don't think there is anyway I could b/f the river, but I think maybe we should."

I dont understand why this is a tough spot....This is an extremely easy fold once raised. Bet/calling is definitely a large money loser in this spot. This is a check/call or bet/fold situation, and based on the final board and the way this hand played out, Im convinced that check/calling will make/save more money than bet/folding. Since were unlikely to get value from betting, our best chance to make money on the river is to induce a hopeless bluff.

[/ QUOTE ]

I forgot we had the Jc in our hand so ignore the idea that the villain could possibly have a worse Jx hand with JcXc.

Re: KJs in SB vs PFR
 

I cant get my head around people calling this river raise.

That river is such an easy bet/fold.

Re: KJs in SB vs PFR
 

See! My instincts are good, but I suck at actually doing it...

lol.

Re: KJs in SB vs PFR
 

[ QUOTE ]
I cant get my head around people calling this river raise.

That river is such an easy bet/fold.

[/ QUOTE ]


you are half right oink.

why are you betting? what hand is going to call you?

there are not enough calling hands to justify a bet here.

a key here is, the villian might bluff with PP, but may fold if we bet.

He will also bet and Q, J, and probably T if he check.

HE can't really have a J or T, unless he's horrible.

That is why I check, because he can't have Jx, or Tx often enough.

as played, omg, fold the river, it's over

Re: KJs in SB vs PFR
 

pocket pairs bluff the river? nope. 3x 5x 66 check behind. some tens get to the turn (AT/KT) and they could easily check too. surprised you guys are saying he folds a pair ever.

imo betting is better, standard river play. don't give him credit for folding pairs. don't give him monies by calling his raise.

Re: KJs in SB vs PFR
 

I could see him having AT or even KT here. Pocket pairs are possible as are A3 and A5. IMO theres a lot of value in a river bet.

Re: KJs in SB vs PFR
 

Betting river is a must, must, must, people call with all sorts of hands. River raises like that are usually not a bluff so I'd fold.

Re: KJs in SB vs PFR
 

OP I think you played this fine. If you have them I think you should post some stats/reads to get better responses.

Re: KJs in SB vs PFR
 

[ QUOTE ]
I could see him having AT or even KT here. Pocket pairs are possible as are A3 and A5. IMO theres a lot of value in a river bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you think the villain can have all these hands on the river and will call a river bet then you should bet/fold. Whats most important here is understand that the river is between bet/fold and check/call. Against most opponents I play against check/calling will be better than bet/folding but there are plenty of times where bet/folding will be the money line.

One of the keys to playing a complex game like poker is using your experience and skill to simplify things. This situation can be simplified by breaking the river down into 2 lines. Bet/folding and check/calling. Once we have done that, the right play comes down to your judgement of the opponent you are playing against.

Re: KJs in SB vs PFR
 

@ Hip

WTF..? I am never half right but always 100% right!

[ QUOTE ]
why are you betting? what hand is going to call you?

[/ QUOTE ]

Worse J's, pp's and Tx

[ QUOTE ]
a key here is, the villian might bluff with PP, but may fold if we bet.


[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] I dont see how we can ever expect that...

[ QUOTE ]
He will also bet and Q, J, and probably T if he check.

[/ QUOTE ]

Him checking behind a T or J is fairly likely IMO


[ QUOTE ]
HE can't really have a J or T, unless he's horrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its an unknown at 0.5/1


FWIW I dont think betting is super standard and there are prolly villains out there where c/c is better. I was mostly chocked by people wanting to call the raise.

Re: KJs in SB vs PFR
 

[ QUOTE ]

FWIW I dont think betting is super standard and there are prolly villains out there where c/c is better. I was mostly chocked by people wanting to call the raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Although I'm sure you're right, a few things:

1. I have seen many villains try desperation bluffs with busted flush draws, busted straight draws (not many here, but still possible), or even something like 44. Of course, getting 9:1 is probably not enough hoping to catch a pure bluff.

2. Bet/folding a river in a blind/button battle is going to make people take a ton of shots at you in similar situations.

I think not bet/folding with marginal hands may be a leak of mine. On a scale of 1-10, how big of a mistake do you think calling this river is?

Re: KJs in SB vs PFR
 

[ QUOTE ]
On a scale of 1-10, how big of a mistake do you think calling this river is?

[/ QUOTE ]

1000000

Quoting metagame reasons for calling is just not good enough.

- People are grossly overestimating how often this gets bluff raised
- An unknown a 0.5/1 is not going to go nuts on the river just cuz you bet/fold a few times


That said you should off course take Shania into consideration, however, this does not mean blindly calling down. It means making more calls after bet/folding a few times and making more folds after a few loose call downs.

Re: KJs in SB vs PFR
 

Thanks Oink.

Another leak to plug...

Re: KJs in SB vs PFR
 

Hi,

thanks a lot for your participation.

Indeed, I was shown QJ. However, I don't think b/f is right against an unknown. For sure, I might be beaten, and I might be beaten quite often.
But the pot is quite big at this point and I'm pretty sure you'll catch sby raising this river with a worse J, Tx, a busted draw or even 72o more than once in 10.

Of course, I might induce a (semi)bluff with a less J, Tx, a smaller PP or a air again, but I doubt this overbalances the b/c line.

Kind regards