live 3/6 how much of a hand do i have here?
 

6 or 7 handed at this point

some folds
LP nitty player raises
some more folds
i defend with 4d9d in the BB

flop is 358 (i have no 3-flush)
i c/r her
she doublechecks her cards and 3bets

can i even call here?

im not too concerned about metagame consequences

Re: live 3/6 how much of a hand do i have here?
 

no you have no hand here.

also what does nitty mean pf? can she have A9o or KTo?

Re: live 3/6 how much of a hand do i have here?
 

[ QUOTE ]
no you have no hand here.

also what does nitty mean pf? can she have A9o or KTo?

[/ QUOTE ]

yes A9+ KT+ QJ+ 88+ is likely her range here

perhaps a bit tighter AT+ KJ+ 99+

Re: live 3/6 how much of a hand do i have here?
 

ok flop is ok depending on your image, now fold.

Re: live 3/6 how much of a hand do i have here?
 

from your last few post, I assume you are playing 3-6 live.

When they raise, they have JJ+, and AK

Fold PF, your hands sucks.

c/f the flop. you are losing, they aren't going to fold overs.

Re: live 3/6 how much of a hand do i have here?
 

Why on earth would you take a stand against a nitty preflop raiser with 94?

Re: live 3/6 how much of a hand do i have here?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why on earth would you take a stand against a nitty preflop raiser with 94?

[/ QUOTE ]

because they'll fold?

I was playing 6 handed recently and this hand came up..

aggro guy raises utg, folds to BB nit who calls (his range is way ahead here). flop Q66 he check/folds 55 face up. like how do you not c/r 94 in this spot against him.

edit; the way to make money is to reinforce the mistakes of bad players. if they call too much valuebet to death. if they fold too much bluff to death. pretty basic stuff

Re: live 3/6 how much of a hand do i have here?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why on earth would you take a stand against a nitty preflop raiser with 94?

[/ QUOTE ]

because they'll fold?

I was playing 6 handed recently and this hand came up..

aggro guy raises utg, folds to BB nit who calls (his range is way ahead here). flop Q66 he check/folds 55 face up. like how do you not c/r 94 in this spot against him.

edit; the way to make money is to reinforce the mistakes of bad players. if they call too much valuebet to death. if they fold too much bluff to death. pretty basic stuff

[/ QUOTE ]

but when nitty players raise pf, they don't have folding hands, esp at 3-6.

seriously, this is a fold ever street.

Re: live 3/6 how much of a hand do i have here?
 

look youre missing out on monies vs this villian
if youre gonna release your hand often postflop
when your range leans towards two big cards
im gonna defend in the bb with almost anything
with the intention of c/r flop and b/f the turn
on ragged uncoordinated boards such as Q73
if i see 2 broadway cards flop im outta there

Re: live 3/6 how much of a hand do i have here?
 

[ QUOTE ]
look youre missing out on monies vs this villian
if youre gonna release your hand often postflop
when your range leans towards two big cards
im gonna defend in the bb with almost anything
with the intention of c/r flop and b/f the turn
on ragged uncoordinated boards such as Q73
if i see 2 broadway cards flop im outta there

[/ QUOTE ]


here's how it goes.

You play 3-6 Live, you probalby suck at poker

I play 10-20 online, I do suck at poker, just at a much higher level.

I've played in those games, when ppl raise PF, they don't have QJo, they have AK, or a PP, and they aren't folding anywhere.

The mere act of calling a raise with 94s against a PFR from LP that raises less than 5% of the time is costing you money.

C/r the flop with no pair, no draw, when you usually need to hit runner/runner to win, or at least a pair to outdraw AK, when they won't even fold AK, is going to cost you money.

I understand the concept of your play, and it works great against me online, 6max, but live play, esp 3-6 is not real poker.

next time you try this, at least have a draw to beat AA, so you can hit 'something' on the turn that gives you the winner.

and btw, most good players know about the "c/r the flop of Q62" with nothing play, and it won't work.

Re: live 3/6 how much of a hand do i have here?
 

I think you should listen to Hip here. If you actually have to think about strategy at live 3/6 you probably don't really know what you are doing.

go pick up Ed Miller's Small Stakes Hold'em and read it a couple of times in a row. then decide if calling pf with 94s and check-raising every goofy flop is really a good idea.

Re: live 3/6 how much of a hand do i have here?
 

Why are you calling a preflop raise from a nitty player with 94s?

I also think you should fold the flop. You have no hand no draw and from the descriptions of small stakes live games in general and your description of this player it seems like she has a strong hand.

Re: live 3/6 how much of a hand do i have here?
 

[ QUOTE ]
here's how it goes.
You play 3-6 Live, you probalby suck at poker
I play 10-20 online, I do suck at poker, just at a much higher level.

[/ QUOTE ]

sorry hip but you can't get away with your buddy ILP's dickish tone because your posts aren't nearly as insightful as his. OP has a history of making good posts in other forums, this forum will be better with him posting. so don't be a tool.

and you're way off the mark here, the flop is an autoraise against certain opponents live. he gave us a pf range that isn't JJ+/AK and if you cant accept that even 3/6 players can play differently than one another then you're the one with the problem.

Re: live 3/6 how much of a hand do i have here?
 

Ok, I just read the rest of the posts in this thread. I still think the preflop call is close, and generally I want a better hand to try anything fancy on this flop.

Re: live 3/6 how much of a hand do i have here?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
here's how it goes.
You play 3-6 Live, you probalby suck at poker
I play 10-20 online, I do suck at poker, just at a much higher level.

[/ QUOTE ]

sorry hip but you can't get away with your buddy ILP's dickish tone because your posts aren't nearly as insightful as his. OP has a history of making good posts in other forums, this forum will be better with him posting. so don't be a tool.

and you're way off the mark here, the flop is an autoraise against certain opponents live. he gave us a pf range that isn't JJ+/AK and if you cant accept that even 3/6 players can play differently than one another then you're the one with the problem.

[/ QUOTE ]

In Hip's defense, the guy asked for advice, it was given, and then he went into a long argument about how this play was not only correct but standard. Hip's sort-of-insult may not have been necessary, but he also added some self-deprication (sp?) to moderate his tone. I don't know I guess I felt like the OP got a little defensive first so it really wasn't that crazy that thehip tried to explain why his experience gave him insight the OP might be ignoring.

but anyway.

Re: live 3/6 how much of a hand do i have here?
 

While you can squabble about when OP should have folded, the answers to his original questions are painfully obvious:

how much of a hand do i have here?
Buddy, you have 9 high, you have nothing.

and

can i even call here?
No, a nitty player just took you to 3-town on the flop. You are a chipspewing monkey if you go any further. It looks like an overpair that will call down to me. The best you can hope for is that the villain has 2 overs, misses the turn, and will fold to a turn donk; this could happen 1 time in 4, whereas you will have to invest 3 sb to win a 9 sb pot. At best you are looking at a neutral EV.

If villain just tight, you should wait to have some dogs before going to battle with him. It could work if villain is weak tight, but that doesn't seem to be the case here.

Re: live 3/6 how much of a hand do i have here?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
here's how it goes.
You play 3-6 Live, you probalby suck at poker
I play 10-20 online, I do suck at poker, just at a much higher level.

[/ QUOTE ]

sorry hip but you can't get away with your buddy ILP's dickish tone because your posts aren't nearly as insightful as his. OP has a history of making good posts in other forums, this forum will be better with him posting. so don't be a tool.

and you're way off the mark here, the flop is an autoraise against certain opponents live. he gave us a pf range that isn't JJ+/AK and if you cant accept that even 3/6 players can play differently than one another then you're the one with the problem.

[/ QUOTE ]


jba, ILP and I play the exact same game, and I can be a dick if I want.

In my defense, against 90% of live players, the OP just lit 2BB on fire, and 1.5BB with no pair no draw.

It doesn't take a genius to understand that 94s is going to lose money against a nitty PFR.

I understand about getting him to "fold" overs, but you are assuming he will fold overs.

You basicallyhave to c/r the flop, bet the turn, and bet the river in a tiny ass pot and hope he doesn't have QQ, but has KQ this time.

This whole hand is atrocious, and yes, I do think I am better than the OP at poker, and I yes I am better than the OP at poker. It doesn't really matter that much, but in this spot, he should stop dicking around and realize I know what the ---- I'm talking about and stop burning money.

Re: live 3/6 how much of a hand do i have here?
 

sounds like a case of the mondays

Re: live 3/6 how much of a hand do i have here?
 

Look, the rake in a 3/6 game makes this an incredibly easy fold preflop. If there were no rake its probably still a fold, because A-hi won't be calling you down when you flop a pair anyhow.

Also, If getting this woman to fold were so easy, why not just 3-bet any two preflop and bet the flop+turn?

I like the flop c/r though and I might peel occasionally if I thought she was the type of angry woman who would 3-bet AJ+ here and take a "free card" on the turn.

Re: live 3/6 how much of a hand do i have here?
 

3-bet preflop or fold.

Re: live 3/6 how much of a hand do i have here?
 

I don't like the tone of several posts in this thread. Please lay off the personal attacks.

RudeboyOi this is what you told us about Villain:

[ QUOTE ]
LP nitty player raises

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A9+ KT+ QJ+ 88+ is likely her range here
perhaps a bit tighter AT+ KJ+ 99+

[/ QUOTE ]
Then you concluded:

[ QUOTE ]
look youre missing out on monies vs this villian
if youre gonna release your hand often postflop
when your range leans towards two big cards
im gonna defend in the bb with almost anything
with the intention of c/r flop and b/f the turn
on ragged uncoordinated boards such as Q73
if i see 2 broadway cards flop im outta there

[/ QUOTE ]
It just doesn't work that way. Naturally there are opponents that you can do this against but the Villain you described does not begin to qualify. You will lose a fortune if you insist on constantly attacking ordinary tight/passive players from OOP with any two cards.

Specifics:

1. Defending 94s versus such a tight raiser is reckless in almost any game. Given the typical large rake at live 3/6 it's a major leak.

2. You have very close to the most useless possible hand for this flop. You shouldn't be checkraising with any two cards in this situation.

3. Why are you even asking whether you can call after you get 3-bet? You have no hand and no draw OOP versus a reliable opponent who says she has a very good hand.

If you want to play a hyperaggressive style then you absolutely have to know when to stop. This is about as clear a stop sign as you are ever going to get.

Re: live 3/6 how much of a hand do i have here?
 

[ QUOTE ]

im not too concerned about metagame consequences

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
live 3/6

[/ QUOTE ]

This post is terrible, the hand is a fold all three times.

Re: live 3/6 how much of a hand do i have here?
 

well okay the general consensus here is to fold

but what if we change the case slightly

saying we also flopped 3 to a flush

does it just barely sway our decision to a call?

we can see a river if we turn a 2, 6, or diamond

im not sure how likely this is but i could see
this villian possibly checking thru an A turn
fearful that it may have helped us which would
then give us a freeshot at hitting our gutshot

id donk a river if we made a straight and c/r a flush

this is at one of those new automated tables
so the rake here is the same online $3-max
and there is no dealer there to tip either

Re: live 3/6 how much of a hand do i have here?
 

[ QUOTE ]
well okay the general consensus here is to fold

but what if we change the case slightly

saying we also flopped 3 to a flush

does it just barely sway our decision to a call?

we can see a river if we turn a 2, 6, or diamond

im not sure how likely this is but i could see
this villian possibly checking thru an A turn
fearful that it may have helped us which would
then give us a freeshot at hitting our gutshot

id donk a river if we made a straight and c/r a flush

this is at one of those new automated tables
so the rake here is the same online $3-max
and there is no dealer there to tip either

[/ QUOTE ]


give it up already, even if you have a backdoor flush draw, it doesn't matter, he has KK, you lose, next hand.

why are you so concerned with this little bitty pot of 4sb when you have no pair no draw? i just dont understand

Re: live 3/6 how much of a hand do i have here?
 

op you watch too much tv poker. it's 3/6 live, stop tryin to make moves and just value bet when you have a hand.

Re: live 3/6 how much of a hand do i have here?
 

okay idk whats with all of the personal attacks

this villian is not showdown bound and prone to folding
her reactions to my bets are 100% honest and easy to read
anyone who wont make a move on this flop is missing out

quit trying to make a general statement that every 3/6 player is never ever folding any hand they choose to play

this is not true

the purpose of this thread is whats the bare mininum hand you can continue with here on this board when she 3bets

the first case is a clear fold but
what if we now add a 3flush

shes telling us she has an overpair here

this is more of a conditional probability question

we have about 16 outs to improve our hand on the turn
9 diamonds, 3 2s, 3 6s, 3 As (~1 out i can see her checking back that turn some portion of the time if an ace hits)

this is also not a player we can extract
more than 3bbs on the turn and river from
so our implied odds go down on the river
wed have to donk a straight or miss value
but can possibly c/r a flush on the river

Re: live 3/6 how much of a hand do i have here?
 

[ QUOTE ]
okay idk whats with all of the personal attacks

this villian is not showdown bound and prone to folding
her reactions to my bets are 100% honest and easy to read
anyone who wont make a move on this flop is missing out

quit trying to make a general statement that every 3/6 player is never ever folding any hand they choose to play

this is not true

the purpose of this thread is whats the bare mininum hand you can continue with here on this board when she 3bets

the first case is a clear fold but
what if we now add a 3flush

shes telling us she has an overpair here

this is more of a conditional probability question

we have about 16 outs to improve our hand on the turn
9 diamonds, 3 2s, 3 6s, 3 As (~1 out i can see her checking back that turn some portion of the time if an ace hits)

this is also not a player we can extract
more than 3bbs on the turn and river from
so our implied odds go down on the river
wed have to donk a straight or miss value
but can possibly c/r a flush on the river

[/ QUOTE ]

With a bd flush draw you go from about .5 outs to 1.5 outs. Still not enough to continue. Also I dont know why youre defending your play this hand. 94s had really poor equity vs a tight open. On the flop the pot is 2bb and your going to have to put in at least 2bb to win it. You arent giving up anything by just folding.

Re: live 3/6 how much of a hand do i have here?
 

[ QUOTE ]
okay idk whats with all of the personal attacks

this villian is not showdown bound and prone to folding
her reactions to my bets are 100% honest and easy to read
anyone who wont make a move on this flop is missing out

quit trying to make a general statement that every 3/6 player is never ever folding any hand they choose to play

this is not true

the purpose of this thread is whats the bare mininum hand you can continue with here on this board when she 3bets

the first case is a clear fold but
what if we now add a 3flush

shes telling us she has an overpair here

this is more of a conditional probability question

we have about 16 outs to improve our hand on the turn
9 diamonds, 3 2s, 3 6s, 3 As (~1 out i can see her checking back that turn some portion of the time if an ace hits)

this is also not a player we can extract
more than 3bbs on the turn and river from
so our implied odds go down on the river
wed have to donk a straight or miss value
but can possibly c/r a flush on the river

[/ QUOTE ]

If you think villain is a huge nit I dont mind you flop play altho I would prolly just 3-bet pre. But as played I dont see how you can continue in the hand after she 3-bets.

Re: live 3/6 how much of a hand do i have here?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
3-bet preflop or fold.

Edited by StellarWind (08/09/07 12:06 AM)

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't like the tone of several posts in this thread. Please lay off the personal attacks.

[/ QUOTE ]

With all due respect, Mr. Moderator, if you're going to delete my personal attack, then I wish you'd delete my entire post. This entire thread is ridiculous...

Re: live 3/6 how much of a hand do i have here?
 

[ QUOTE ]
her reactions to my bets are 100% honest and easy to read

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
i defend with 4d9d in the BB

flop is 358 (i have no 3-flush)
i c/r her
she doublechecks her cards and 3bets

can i even call here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: live 3/6 how much of a hand do i have here?
 

[ QUOTE ]


sorry hip but you can't get away with your buddy ILP's dickish tone because your posts aren't nearly as insightful as his.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its not very often that I get attacked and complimented in the same sentence. Im glad you enjoy some of my posts Jba. About the dickish tone: I'll try to work on that but its not easy for me. I know I have some good days where Im perfectly polite and diplomatic, but other days I just cant help myself. Some days I wake up and say "You know what? This would be a great day to be an arrogant [censored]."

My parents, close friends, and girlfriend have all remarked about my dickish tone. Ironically, Thehip41 has never called me out on it. Thats probably cuz he's a bigger dick than me. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Since I have now infiltrated this thread I guess I feel obligated to comment on this hand. As others have mentioned preflop is a fold. All the reasons why its a fold have been discussed. The initial flop play is very intersting becuz there are alot of countervailing forces at work here.

Reasons supporting a flop check/raise:

1) An 835r flop is an excellent flop to make a play for the pot since this board is likely to miss the PFR's range

2) This guy may be the type to release Ace high on the turn. Hes trying to play well, and live players arent as showdown happy with ace high even in steal situations.

Reasons to check/fold:

1) I know this board doesnt correlate with the PFR's range but his range may be tight enough that he'll have an overpair too often to make a flop check/raise on nothing profitable

2) This is 3-6, he may not know how to fold ace high in this spot.

I think in order for me to figure out which line is best on the flop, I would actually have to be at the table and have somekind of general feel for my opponents play. That way I would be able to more accurately judge what this guy's range is in this spot and how he will play ace high if I check/raise. A proper analysis of those two variables should lead to some pretty accurate conclusions on which flop line is best between C/F and C/R. I will say this much, there are several opponents I play with, live and online, whom I will check/raise this very flop against with nothing quite frequently.

I remember Mason Malmuth writing in one of his essay books how one of the mistakes that players trying to play well somtimes make is bluffing the tight/passive player too often. The problem with this strategy, Mason states, is that the tight/passive player, becuz of his very nature, will have a hand too often that cant fold. Mason was speaking more generally of course, so this idea may or may not apply to this specific situation. But we can conclude one thing for sure, this flop check/raise will work alot better against a tag than a tight/passive.

Re: live 3/6 how much of a hand do i have here?
 

RudeBoyOi,

I dig your posting style. I hope you stick around SSSH.