Florida To Get Blackjack and More
 

From the Miami Herald:

"In closed-door negotiations with the Seminole Tribe, Gov. Charlie Crist has offered the tribe permission to run Las Vegas-style slot machines at its casinos as well as the exclusive right to run Las Vegas-style card games, like blackjack and baccarat, according to people close to the administration."

www.miamiherald.com/news/florida/story/194863.html

Do you think this could lead to higher limits for poker or higher buy-ins?

Re: Florida To Get Blackjack and More
 

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From the Miami Herald:

"In closed-door negotiations with the Seminole Tribe, Gov. Charlie Crist has offered the tribe permission to run Las Vegas-style slot machines at its casinos as well as the exclusive right to run Las Vegas-style card games, like blackjack and baccarat, according to people close to the administration."

www.miamiherald.com/news/florida/story/194863.html

Do you think this could lead to higher limits for poker or higher buy-ins?

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I don't think it will lead to higher poker stakes. As a matter of fact, once the Indians get Class III gaming, speculation is that they probably will cut back on poker.

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Are the Seminoles pressed for land? Look at Winstar in Oklahoma, they put the poker room in a damned glorified tent and its PACKED with the Cali drop and 200max buy. Why drop poker when it gets people IN the casino, which is half the battle, turns a profit, and the possibility of a circuit stop.
Ask smaller strips around the country what a 3 week circuit stop means, especially Tunica with two. A month long stop could fill Tampa's hotels and every casino in town, especially off-season. I think part of the impetus originally for bigger poker was a Tour stop. I just don't see how hard it would be to find a 50-75 table super room somewhere on Seminole land, but I don't know the local property situation.

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I didn't say they are going to cut back on poker, just that there is speculation that they would. It's a fact that slot machines and casino table games generate much more revenue per square foot than poker does. But whether it's good business practice to use poker as a sort of loss leader to get people in the casino I don't know, as I'm not in the business.

As far as expanding with more buildings, the Hard Rock complex is pretty jampacked as it is. The Seminoles are trying hard to build another Hard Rock-type complex to replace the Coconut Creek casino but so far, the neighbors have been able to kill those plans. Bottom line is that there isn't a whole lot of land left for them to expand further.

Also, Class III gaming has nothing to do with poker, which is Class I gaming. Honestly, I don't see the Seminoles pushing the issue with raising the poker stakes, as it seems to me that they're at a point now where it's not possible to generate more rake by increasing the stakes. So why bother when it would only serve to piss off state government?

Maybe it's a possibility that they could try to draw big events like a WPT or something once or twice a year with high-stakes games. Sort of like they do in the Bahamas. But I can't see them going after bigger poker on an everyday basis.

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FWIW - Hard Rock Tampa is currently undergoing a renovation that is adding 50,000 sf of casino floor space (among other things). Coincidental timing?

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FWIW - Hard Rock Tampa is currently undergoing a renovation that is adding 50,000 sf of casino floor space (among other things). Coincidental timing?

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Any idea what a barebones studio runs around Tampa where I don't have to go to sleep hearing crack deals?

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I heard from a seminole tribesman that they will get all class III games (blackjack, craps, etc.) by the end of the month. They plan to offer only high stakes poker and leave the low stakes poker for the pari mutuels.

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They plan to offer only high stakes poker and leave the low stakes poker for the pari mutuels.

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Oh please, please, please be true.

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soulvamp, I think the speculation of "cut back on poker" is just bad wording. Having full fledged pits in and of itself cuts back on poker. The people running the Seminole joints know this. Lots of people playing poker today are just action junkies and the only viable option in Florida right now is poker. It will certainly have a impact but it is my understanding that poker(ie stakes) is in the negotiations currently ongoing. The Indians want high stakes, they know the value of having them as well as being able to bring circuit events to Florida.I was told it is a priority on their side and one they expect to get in the compact.

P.S. Remember the first week when the Tribe was allowing anything goes? You think that was a accident or a miscommunication as they claimed when they went back to the $100.00 limit? I don't.

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soulvamp, I think the speculation of "cut back on poker" is just bad wording. Having full fledged pits in and of itself cuts back on poker. The people running the Seminole joints know this. Lots of people playing poker today are just action junkies and the only viable option in Florida right now is poker. It will certainly have a impact but it is my understanding that poker(ie stakes) is in the negotiations currently ongoing. The Indians want high stakes, they know the value of having them as well as being able to bring circuit events to Florida.I was told it is a priority on their side and one they expect to get in the compact.

P.S. Remember the first week when the Tribe was allowing anything goes? You think that was a accident or a miscommunication as they claimed when they went back to the $100.00 limit? I don't.

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I really don't understand your point. For some reason, the words aren't making any sense to me.

In any event, none of us really know anything as far as details. So we'll just have to wait and see. The only thing that really seems certain is that there will be full-out Class III gaming at the Indian casinos in a month or two.

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Are the Seminoles pressed for land? Look at Winstar in Oklahoma, they put the poker room in a damned glorified tent and its PACKED with the Cali drop and 200max buy.

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It is not 200max buy. I just played there last night and bought in for $2,000. Also, last week I played and bought in for $5,000.

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I was there in March and the 1/2 was 200 max. They were opening a new room that looked like it was in a tent. There was a huge storm as well and I thought the roof was going to collapse. My main reason for never going back was the Cali drop and excessive rake. They had up to 25 blind games if I remember right, and some limit games, not as restrictive as Fla by a mile.

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Oh, ok, yea..I didn't see where you said you played 1/2..I guess that game is 200max...I played the 5/10 which is 2,000 max and the 10/25 which was 5,000 max.

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P.S. Remember the first week when the Tribe was allowing anything goes? You think that was a accident or a miscommunication as they claimed when they went back to the $100.00 limit? I don't.

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The excuse given by one of their officers was that he was out of town and not included in that decision making process.

Somehow I don't think this even slightly resembles the truth.

A friend of mine was recently hired at the Seminole HR and he says the management is already working on a few changes. One possible plan, apparently, is to move the poker room into the room that is currently the non-smoking slot area. Another includes two separate poker areas - with one for high stakes games exclusively.

A Miami Herald article that I read seems to express the same opinion... that the door is now open to class 3 gaming and the state can't do anything but ensure that it gets a cut of the revenues.

One thing is for sure. The management at the Seminole HR in Hollywood is gearing up for this fully expecting to get everything that is being speculated upon and both the Hollywood and Tampa locations are already building new gaming space.

Obviously that guarantees nothing... but it sure does seem to look favorable.

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The Rock in Tampa had a press release about the renovation on thier website the weekend before the new limits went into place. Seems the plan for expansion had nothing to do with poker, unless someone can come forward and provide evidence. That said, it would only make good business sense to try and raise the limits or at least the cap on some of the games. I went down the Sunday the new limits were run, (before the state made them change) and the place was insane. Even with the betting limits now, they aren't doing half bad. I don't think they will expand the poker room anytime soon but time will tell.

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The Rock in Tampa had a press release about the renovation on thier website the weekend before the new limits went into place. Seems the plan for expansion had nothing to do with poker, unless someone can come forward and provide evidence. That said, it would only make good business sense to try and raise the limits or at least the cap on some of the games. I went down the Sunday the new limits were run, (before the state made them change) and the place was insane. Even with the betting limits now, they aren't doing half bad. I don't think they will expand the poker room anytime soon but time will tell.

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I live in S.Fla., was in Tampa area over the weekend and drove over to check out the HR there. Looked to me like the expansion is for a shopping/restaurant area like they have at the HR here, nothing to do with the casino.

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The BJ will in all liklihood pay 6/5 for blackjack........don't get to excited folks.

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I live in S.Fla., was in Tampa area over the weekend and drove over to check out the HR there. Looked to me like the expansion is for a shopping/restaurant area like they have at the HR here, nothing to do with the casino.

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It is a $120 Million renovation that is adding 50,000 sf of casino floor space (among other things)

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The expansion at the HR Tampa (This phase anyway) is for restaruant and shops. HOWEVER. There is another phase (so I am told by HR employees) that will expand the gaming area. For now, I believe they will blanket the new shopping area with the slots that are in the former ball rooms, and that area will become the table gaming area. My personal hope is that the limits on poker will remain the same so that other rooms like the one I work in will have a level playing field for business. Who knows. Maybe they will downsize the poker area and Tampa Greyhound and the other rooms in the Tampa St. Pete area will benefit. I hope that the Govenor will think before acting for the benefit of all Florida.

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The expansion at the HR Tampa (This phase anyway) is for restaruant and shops. HOWEVER. There is another phase (so I am told by HR employees) that will expand the gaming area. For now, I believe they will blanket the new shopping area with the slots that are in the former ball rooms, and that area will become the table gaming area. My personal hope is that the limits on poker will remain the same so that other rooms like the one I work in will have a level playing field for business. Who knows. Maybe they will downsize the poker area and Tampa Greyhound and the other rooms in the Tampa St. Pete area will benefit. I hope that the Govenor will think before acting for the benefit of all Florida.

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I don't know whether the governor really has much leverage at all. Seems to me -- and this is purely a guess on my part -- that the only real bone he can ask for is that they hold the line on poker, which they very well could do to keep their relationship intact. I really don't see how the Seminoles would benefit all that much by pressing for high-stakes poker. They could make more money devoting their resources to table games.

Re: Florida To Get Blackjack and More
 

Latest update from the AP, as posted in the St. Petersburg Times:

http://www.sptimes.com/2007/08/17/St...ribe_tak.shtml

The article pegs Tuesday the 21st as the deadline for the State and The Tribe to reach an agreement.

Let's keep our fingers crossed, folks. With any luck this will mean the return of high stakes poker to the Sunshine State.

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I spoke to a manager at the HR Hollywood and he said that once they get full casino games that they are going back to high-stakes poker games.

I don't think the State of Florida is looking to limit the Seminoles from having high stakes poker. The State is just trying to negotiate the highest cut they can get.

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I think appearances are important too, Crist can't totally ignore the crucifixed fascists. Maybe he thinks they appreciate his stall move? Its never too early to think about 2012.

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I spoke to a manager at the HR Hollywood and he said that once they get full casino games that they are going back to high-stakes poker games.

I don't think the State of Florida is looking to limit the Seminoles from having high stakes poker. The State is just trying to negotiate the highest cut they can get.

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A dealer today told me that the Hard Rock won't even have poker. They'll use the space for table games (no roulette or craps, just card games) and leave poker for the old Seminole Casino up the road.

By the way, the time charge at the Hard Rock has killed poker action there. People are staying away in droves.

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good, are you calling them on the phone and saying yorue staying away because? you sre saying they actually have open tables?

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good, are you calling them on the phone and saying yorue staying away because? you sre saying they actually have open tables?

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I'm not staying away because of the time charge. I'm staying away because I don't play no-limit.

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Here is a story just released today by the Sun-Sentinal in South Florida, it's a pretty extensive and in depth article about this whole issue...

Gov. Charlie Crist and the Seminole Tribe of Florida are down to the "nitty gritty" issues as they push to have a deal in place this week giving the tribe Las Vegas-style slot machines and potentially other gambling options, according to an attorney for the Seminoles.

The U.S. Department of Interior warned Crist in June to have an agreement largely ironed out by this week or risk the federal government instead allowing the Seminoles to have the slot machines without state regulatory oversight. If that happened, the state could lose out on millions of dollars.

Barry Richard, one of the Seminoles' attorneys, said the goal of both sides is to have an agreement by this week, but it's unclear if it will happen so soon.

"It's fair to say that [negotiations] have intensified because we are pushing to get things done and debating some of the thornier questions," Richard said. "Some of those are in the money area and the extent to which the state imposes some of its regulatory desires within the reservation."

George LeMieux, Crist's chief of staff and his point man in negotiations, said he expects the agreement to be reached this week.

"There are a couple of significant issues left to be ironed out, but the tribe and the state are negotiating in good faith," LeMieux said.

Even if Crist successfully negotiates a deal, the question lingers whether the Legislature will need to approve it. If the governor proceeds without a legislative vote, a court challenge to his authority seems inevitable, said Robert Jarvis, a Nova Southeastern University law school professor and gambling law expert.

Crist's staff members and tribal representatives have spent the past three months periodically meeting to hash out an agreement over the tribe's gambling rights, commonly known as a compact. A compact would grant the tribe the ability to offer more lucrative gambling options while the state would get some of the revenue as well as having as some regulatory oversight.

The Seminoles have argued that since Broward racetrack casinos got traditional slot machines, the tribe legally is entitled to have the devices at its seven casinos. The Seminole Tribe's casinos currently feature bingo-style slot machines, where players compete against each other. Those slots are considered less profitable than traditional slots, which are individually programmed for payouts.

In addition, the tribe wants table games, such as roulette and blackjack. Table games would further solidify the Seminole Hard Rock Hotel & Casino complexes as destination spots and fuel expansion at the other tribal casinos. The tribe has averaged an annual profit of more than $500 million from its gambling operations statewide since opening the Hard Rock complexes, according to court records.

U.S. Interior Secretary Dirk Kempthorne wrote Crist in June that if both sides failed to "reach an agreement on all or most of the outstanding issues within the next 60 days, I will review my options at that time." The 60-day window will expire by Wednesday.

The Interior Department warned the state last year that it was ready to issue regulations that would allow the Seminoles to have traditional slots. But the federal government let a November deadline pass without taking action, prompting the Seminoles to file a federal lawsuit demanding a judge force the Interior Department to allow them to have the gambling devices. The lawsuit is pending.

Gaming law experts warn though that if the Seminoles tried to get the machines without a compact, the state likely would file a legal challenge that could drag on for years.

Kempthorne's office has requested a phone conference with the governor's office for sometime this week to check on the negotiations, LeMieux said.

After Crist and the Seminoles reach an agreement, it remains unclear if the governor has the authority to finalize the deal.

Five state supreme courts — in New Mexico, Kansas, Rhode Island, New York and Wisconsin — have ruled their respective governors needed legislative approval to finalize compacts. In Mississippi, a federal court upheld the governor's ability to bind the state to a compact.

Jarvis said in each of these cases, the court had to look at the state's constitution to see if the governor had such power. It doesn't appear the Florida constitution grants such authority to the governor, he said.

If the governor believes he has the power to finalize the deal, he risks a legal challenge that could take months to resolve, Jarvis said. If Crist seeks the Legislature's approval for an agreement, it's unclear how long that could take.

LeMieux said it's "an open question" whether a legislative vote will be needed, but the governor thinks he has the ability to enter into a compact. He said Crist has been consulting with legislative leaders since negotiations began.

Kathryn Rand, a University of North Dakota law professor and gambling law expert, said it's key to resolve the question of legislative approval for a compact.

"The situation all parties want to avoid is negotiating a compact and having the tribe and state proceed with Class III gaming and revenue sharing and only later to have that brought into question," Rand said.

A spokeswoman for House Speaker Marco Rubio, R-West Miami, said he's examining whether legislative ratification will be needed but hasn't taken a formal stance.

"It's not a new issue, but not a resolved issue," said Jill Chamberlin, Rubio's spokeswoman.



Had to copy the whole story because the link doesn't work... hope that is okay... http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/loc...act0820nbaug20,0,2505601.story

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http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/loc...,2505601.story

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I spoke to a manager at the HR Hollywood and he said that once they get full casino games that they are going back to high-stakes poker games.

I don't think the State of Florida is looking to limit the Seminoles from having high stakes poker. The State is just trying to negotiate the highest cut they can get.

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A dealer today told me that the Hard Rock won't even have poker. They'll use the space for table games (no roulette or craps, just card games) and leave poker for the old Seminole Casino up the road.

By the way, the time charge at the Hard Rock has killed poker action there. People are staying away in droves.

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Time charge at which Hard Rock? The Hard Rock in Tampa has no time charge at all. Just a normal rake. And people aren't staying away at all.

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At the Seminole and Hollywood Casinos. I think at the Coconut Creek one as well.

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A dealer today told me that the Hard Rock won't even have poker. They'll use the space for table games (no roulette or craps, just card games) and leave poker for the old Seminole Casino up the road.



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You believe that?

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A dealer today told me that the Hard Rock won't even have poker. They'll use the space for table games (no roulette or craps, just card games) and leave poker for the old Seminole Casino up the road.



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You believe that?

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I don't believe anything that a dealer or a floor manager or anyone says is going to happen because not even the governor or tribal leaders know. They're not even sure if it would be legal for the governor to strike a deal unilaterally without legislative action.

I posted that to make the point that there are a gazillion rumors flying around, practically none of them based in fact.

By the way, the deadline has been extended:

Associated Press story

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I agree. Every day there are rumors but we won'y know until Sept. 11.

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yes will have to wait till sept. 11th to know for sure. but from what I here they will raise the poker stakes back to what it was the 1st 5 days of july. 1/2nl 300max, 2/5/nl 500max and bigger games that would start right away. And they will be getting blackjack and other games but wont start till January probly. will take time to hire people set up cameras etc. I am speaking about Tampa Hard Rock.

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yes will have to wait till sept. 11th to know for sure. but from what I here they will raise the poker stakes back to what it was the 1st 5 days of july. 1/2nl 300max, 2/5/nl 500max and bigger games that would start right away. And they will be getting blackjack and other games but wont start till January probly. will take time to hire people set up cameras etc. I am speaking about Tampa Hard Rock.

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I heard the place is going to burn down next week.

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when i say something its true. I have inside sources. so dont be pissed because you are paying time rake and they are staying with pot rake here in Tampa.

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when i say something its true. I have inside sources. so dont be pissed because you are paying time rake and they are staying with pot rake here in Tampa.

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LOL. I'm not paying time rake.

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I spoke to a manager at the HR Hollywood and he said that once they get full casino games that they are going back to high-stakes poker games.

I don't think the State of Florida is looking to limit the Seminoles from having high stakes poker. The State is just trying to negotiate the highest cut they can get.

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A dealer today told me that the Hard Rock won't even have poker. They'll use the space for table games (no roulette or craps, just card games) and leave poker for the old Seminole Casino up the road.

By the way, the time charge at the Hard Rock has killed poker action there. People are staying away in droves.

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Time charge at which Hard Rock? The Hard Rock in Tampa has no time charge at all. Just a normal rake. And people aren't staying away at all.

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soulvamp? Any comment? Seems to me they either do or they don't!

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I spoke to a manager at the HR Hollywood and he said that once they get full casino games that they are going back to high-stakes poker games.

I don't think the State of Florida is looking to limit the Seminoles from having high stakes poker. The State is just trying to negotiate the highest cut they can get.

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A dealer today told me that the Hard Rock won't even have poker. They'll use the space for table games (no roulette or craps, just card games) and leave poker for the old Seminole Casino up the road.

By the way, the time charge at the Hard Rock has killed poker action there. People are staying away in droves.

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Time charge at which Hard Rock? The Hard Rock in Tampa has no time charge at all. Just a normal rake. And people aren't staying away at all.

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soulvamp? Any comment? Seems to me they either do or they don't!

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[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] I have no idea what it is you want me to comment on.

Hard Rock Hollywood instituted a time rake for no-limit holdem, and people this past weekend chose to go to other rooms instead of the Hard Rock, which has been unusually slow for a few days. I don't know anything about the Hard Rock in Tampa.

I don't pay a time charge because I don't play no-limit holdem.

There are a million rumors flying around about what's going to happen with Class III gambling and poker at the Seminole casinos in the state, but the fact is no one has any clue what is going to happen.

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yes will have to wait till sept. 11th to know for sure. but from what I here they will raise the poker stakes back to what it was the 1st 5 days of july. 1/2nl 300max, 2/5/nl 500max and bigger games that would start right away. And they will be getting blackjack and other games but wont start till January probly. will take time to hire people set up cameras etc. I am speaking about Tampa Hard Rock.

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I heard the place is going to burn down next week.

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I heard the place is going to burn down.........LOL that is f%$$#***&^ HILARIOUS!!!