Live 4/8: Overpair Gets Turn CR\'d
 

This is probably super easy, but I haven't played limit or live in forever.

Canterbury 4/8. Villian is a dealer. I've never played with him but when he deals he seems crabby. He sat down about an orbit ago.

1 limper, villian limps, I raise K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] on the button, both call.

Flop: 10[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

2 checks, I bet, fold, call.

Turn: Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Check, bet, check-raise.

My plan?

Re: Live 4/8: Overpair Gets Turn CR\'d
 

3 bet or call down but never fold.

I should specify:

3 bet if you think villain is likely to check raise the turn with just a Q. if not, call down.

Re: Live 4/8: Overpair Gets Turn CR\'d
 

I call down.

Against a typical 4/8 player you are usually behind here, but the possibility that you are not + that you have lots of outs against a two pair merits calling down IMO.

Re: Live 4/8: Overpair Gets Turn CR\'d
 

I was def not folding. Wondering if I should get a raise in or call down.

Seems like I'm behind more often than (I'm ahead and he calls a raise and river bet.)

Re: Live 4/8: Overpair Gets Turn CR\'d
 

I agree with others, you are probably behind here to two pair, but you have outs, so call down. It is possible he put you on AK from your raise, and is betting just one pair.

Re: Live 4/8: Overpair Gets Turn CR\'d
 

Call down. You're behind a good chunk of the time, but you have outs against 2 pair combined with the times that you are ahead means you need to go to showdown.

3-betting isn't good. It doesn't give us the chance to draw to our outs or see showdown for the same price as just calling down. Even if villain is ridiculously aggressive, it's better to wait for the river to raise because it's less likely we get reraised. However, we're not ahead 50% of the time here, so just call down. Raise a K, 6, 4 river. Fold if you're reraised on the 6 and 4.

Re: Live 4/8: Overpair Gets Turn CR\'d
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is probably super easy, but I haven't played limit or live in forever.

Canterbury 4/8. Villian is a dealer. I've never played with him but when he deals he seems crabby. He sat down about an orbit ago.

1 limper, villian limps, I raise K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] on the button, both call.

Flop: 10[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

2 checks, I bet, fold, call.

Turn: Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Check, bet, check-raise.

My plan?

[/ QUOTE ]

which dealer might make a difference. call the turn and bang a 4 on the river to counterfeit his QT.

Re: Live 4/8: Overpair Gets Turn CR\'d
 

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3 bet

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incorrect.

Re: Live 4/8: Overpair Gets Turn CR\'d
 

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[ QUOTE ]
3 bet

[/ QUOTE ]

incorrect.

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I would just call this down on intuition, I guess. However, I'm not sure exactly why. Is it because of the lack of draws, thus making a semi-bluff c/r less likely? Suppose he limped KQ or Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], would he be correct in c/r-ing these hands on the turn? I think so, right? Should he also fold to a 3-bet if he does? If so, I understand a 3-bet is bad. What if he doesn't fold to a 3-bet? Don't we 3-bet then because we can't fold to a cap, since we have outs? So, basically, what it comes down to is that when we are behind we want to get to showdown cheap, and when we are ahead we want him to keep betting and not fold. Is that it?

Re: Live 4/8: Overpair Gets Turn CR\'d
 

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[ QUOTE ]
3 bet

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incorrect.

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why.

is this another rule, never 3 bet the turn w/ one pair even against aggros?


if he's got a Q, NOT 3 betting is incorrect, esp if he's incapable of folding it.

you guys with your hard and fast rules of playing are being ridiculous. play the player and follow your rules, please. as a default, yes this is a calldown. however, you should change your "defaults" based on who you're playing.

im actually surprised everyone thinks the villain has QT. In many instances, a hand like QT would check raise you on the flop....he has top pair.

IMO he either has a set or a naked Q.

Re: Live 4/8: Overpair Gets Turn CR\'d
 

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you guys with your hard and fast rules of playing are being ridiculous. play the player and follow your rules, please. as a default, yes this is a calldown. however, you should change your "defaults" based on who you're playing.


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I've won a lot of money by not changing my "rules" based on a read. As it turns out my rules are more often right than my reads.

Re: Live 4/8: Overpair Gets Turn CR\'d
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
3 bet

[/ QUOTE ]

incorrect.

[/ QUOTE ]

why.

is this another rule, never 3 bet the turn w/ one pair even against aggros?


if he's got a Q, NOT 3 betting is incorrect, esp if he's incapable of folding it.

you guys with your hard and fast rules of playing are being ridiculous. play the player and follow your rules, please. as a default, yes this is a calldown. however, you should change your "defaults" based on who you're playing.

im actually surprised everyone thinks the villain has QT. In many instances, a hand like QT would check raise you on the flop....he has top pair.

IMO he either has a set or a naked Q.

[/ QUOTE ]

We are behind his range and have odds to draw. Seems like a pretty easy formula for why 3rd flooring is incorrect.

Re: Live 4/8: Overpair Gets Turn CR\'d
 

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you guys with your hard and fast rules of playing are being ridiculous. play the player and follow your rules, please. as a default, yes this is a calldown. however, you should change your "defaults" based on who you're playing.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL kiddo. this is our read:

I've never played with him but when he deals he seems crabby.

Seriously, 3-betting this is spew.

Re: Live 4/8: Overpair Gets Turn CR\'d
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

you guys with your hard and fast rules of playing are being ridiculous. play the player and follow your rules, please. as a default, yes this is a calldown. however, you should change your "defaults" based on who you're playing.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL kiddo. this is our read:

I've never played with him but when he deals he seems crabby.

Seriously, 3-betting this is spew.

[/ QUOTE ]

against this villain, fine. against most villains? fine.

against all opponents? dont buy it.

Re: Live 4/8: Overpair Gets Turn CR\'d
 

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against this villain, fine. against most villains? fine.

against all opponents? dont buy it.

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I'm sure if the read was "crazy maniac who jams any (p)air" a 3-bet would be fine.

Re: Live 4/8: Overpair Gets Turn CR\'d
 

i just read this, 3betting is spew though

Re: Live 4/8: Overpair Gets Turn CR\'d
 

Say river is a blank.

Anyone like a river raise? I think I get paid off by one pair more often if I call turn, raise river than if I 3-bet turn, bet river. I still don't feel like I'm ahead often enough, though.

I think he sat down in time to see me call down w/ TT on a Q-high board on the previous orbit, so he could be a little light.

Re: Live 4/8: Overpair Gets Turn CR\'d
 

if the river doesn't pair the board like say the 4, then raising it is spew for the same reason 3betting the turn is spew - that we're usually behind

Re: Live 4/8: Overpair Gets Turn CR\'d
 

i think of things like this:

am i a favorite versus his range if 4 big bets go in on the turn and river. on that board we can't say that against an unknown. call down UI.

best wishes and good luck and take care,

James

Re: Live 4/8: Overpair Gets Turn CR\'d
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

you guys with your hard and fast rules of playing are being ridiculous. play the player and follow your rules, please. as a default, yes this is a calldown. however, you should change your "defaults" based on who you're playing.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL kiddo. this is our read:

I've never played with him but when he deals he seems crabby.

Seriously, 3-betting this is spew.

[/ QUOTE ]

against this villain, fine. against most villains? fine.

against all opponents? dont buy it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Quote me 1 post in this topic that anyone has said that we should never 3-bet this turn against any villain. Seems like there are none and this "2p2ers say to never 3bet the turn with an overpair" you've imposed on PokerBob or whoever you were responding to is a self-creation. 3-betting the turn is fine, just not here, which is what we are talking about.

Just stop. It's embarassing.

Re: Live 4/8: Overpair Gets Turn CR\'d
 

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Say river is a blank.

Anyone like a river raise? I think I get paid off by one pair more often if I call turn, raise river than if I 3-bet turn, bet river. I still don't feel like I'm ahead often enough, though.

I think he sat down in time to see me call down w/ TT on a Q-high board on the previous orbit, so he could be a little light.

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Raise/raise a river K. Raise/fold a river 6/4. I don't like raising a river blank because we don't have 50% equity against his range. We maybe ahead of AQ/KQ some of the time, but not enough to put in an extra bet.

Re: Live 4/8: Overpair Gets Turn CR\'d
 

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if the river doesn't pair the board like say the 4, then raising it is spew for the same reason 3betting the turn is spew - that we're usually behind

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I think 3-betting is wrong, but maybe for a different reason.

For 3-betting to be correct (instead of calling down), both of these have to be true:
1) I'm ahead of his range
2) He has to call the 3-bet and my river bet

I was thinking that 1) is close, but when I am ahead he won't do 2) every time. That's why I wondered about call-raise instead, which he's more likely to call with a hand I beat.

But you guys are right, I'm probably just flat-out behind the range. Especially since he'd have probably raised AQ pf.

IRL I actually 3-bet. He called, check-called, and mucked. Guy to my left was praising me for the 3-bet, and I was instantly thinking it was wrong.

Re: Live 4/8: Overpair Gets Turn CR\'d
 

[ QUOTE ]
3 bet or call down but never fold.

I should specify:

3 bet if you think villain is likely to check raise the turn with just a Q. if not, call down.



[/ QUOTE ]
This seems reasonable to me

Re: Live 4/8: Overpair Gets Turn CR\'d
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
3 bet

[/ QUOTE ]

incorrect.

[/ QUOTE ]

why.

is this another rule, never 3 bet the turn w/ one pair even against aggros?


if he's got a Q, NOT 3 betting is incorrect, esp if he's incapable of folding it.

you guys with your hard and fast rules of playing are being ridiculous. play the player and follow your rules, please. as a default, yes this is a calldown. however, you should change your "defaults" based on who you're playing.

im actually surprised everyone thinks the villain has QT. In many instances, a hand like QT would check raise you on the flop....he has top pair.

IMO he either has a set or a naked Q.

[/ QUOTE ]

what is ridiculous is doing anything other than calling down in this spot. we have no idea how this guy plays. when we have an overpair vs. an unknown, we follow the hard and fast rule of getting to showdown. doing anything other than that makes zero sense.

Re: Live 4/8: Overpair Gets Turn CR\'d
 

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however, you should change your "defaults" based on who you're playing.

[/ QUOTE ]

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what is ridiculous is doing anything other than calling down in this spot. we have no idea how this guy plays. when we have an overpair vs. an unknown, we follow the hard and fast rule of getting to showdown.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which, in effect, IS playing the player. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

I agree with PB. I don't like getting too wild against unknowns. You'd hate it if he caps because then you still have to call down.

b

Re: Live 4/8: Overpair Gets Turn CR\'d
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if the river doesn't pair the board like say the 4, then raising it is spew for the same reason 3betting the turn is spew - that we're usually behind

[/ QUOTE ]
I think 3-betting is wrong, but maybe for a different reason.

For 3-betting to be correct (instead of calling down), both of these have to be true:
1) I'm ahead of his range
2) He has to call the 3-bet and my river bet

I was thinking that 1) is close, but when I am ahead he won't do 2) every time. That's why I wondered about call-raise instead, which he's more likely to call with a hand I beat.

But you guys are right, I'm probably just flat-out behind the range. Especially since he'd have probably raised AQ pf.

IRL I actually 3-bet. He called, check-called, and mucked. Guy to my left was praising me for the 3-bet, and I was instantly thinking it was wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're going to 3 bet or raise the river, you should be willing to fold to a cap on the turn or a river 3 bet. Imo, we don't know this player well enough to fold in either situation.

b

Re: Live 4/8: Overpair Gets Turn CR\'d
 

Calling down is my standard play here. You can raise if a low card pairs on the river, since his most likely holding is QT.