Probably a common enough problem, wanted to get some input
 

Hi all,

I think this post might get long and is probably not incredibly interesting, so thank you if you read it and I won't take offense if you stop in a few lines.

I've been playing poker sort of seriously for a couple months now, I've moved up from the tiniest limits (like nl2) to nl50 (6 max). I haven't played so many hands in that time span, probably in the neighborhood of 80,000 or so spread over 5 months. Alright so ever since coming to nl50 I've been unable to beat the game. I suppose you could say I haven't played enough hands to know if I'm actually losing, but I feel like I'm being outplayed often (or at least that too often I face decisions that are difficult for me even though I feel like after 80,000 hands they should no longer be). I've also been told by a couple 2p2ers who know how I play, talk with me often, that I'm pretty bad overall, way too weak tight and generally just a poor player both preflop and postflop (fwiw I agree with them). The fact that I've been unable to win has been very depressing to me, I have little confidence in my game and for the first time in a while do not feel like I'm improving at all. Is it possible I'm just not smart enough to win at poker no matter what I do?

I believe part of my problem is that 50 dollars seems like a lot of money to me, much more than losing 25 bucks at 25nl was. I'm properly rolled for the game so that isn't the problem, but I'm not exactly sure how to get to the point where I can play well and not think about the money involved (I can't even begin to fathom how the high limit players can lose several hundred thousand in a session when I think about all that that money can buy).

Another of my problems is that when I get on 2p2 I tend to drift towards the off topic forums, BBV and BBV4L (if you search my post history you'll see well over 90% of my posts are in BBV4L). I dunno if I'm the only one with this problem, but I'm thinking it would be best to just completely stop reading this forum (If only I had that kind of will power). I just end up wasting so much of my time on 2p2 reading the pointless stuff when I know I should be reading strat or paying more attention at the tables.

Alright so I apologize for this post, it's probably not that well thought out and maybe not even all that an uncommon predicament for beginning players, but I felt like writing a few things down and maybe getting some useful advice on how to push forward. I might just be done with 2p2 after this thread, I'm not really sure at this point, but a friend recommended that I post my feelings here before altogether giving up. If I think of something to add I'll probably post them later in thread (assuming anyone at all replies).

Thanks for your input, feel free to tell me how I suck, how 50 bucks isn't a lot of money, how you're a lot smarter and better at poker than me, how I'm being really over emotional and probably need clinical help to deal with my attitude, all of these things are probably at least somewhat true.

Re: Probably a common enough problem, wanted to get some input
 

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Hi all,

I believe part of my problem is that 50 dollars seems like a lot of money to me, much more than losing 25 bucks at 25nl was. I'm properly rolled for the game so that isn't the problem, but I'm not exactly sure how to get to the point where I can play well and not think about the money involved (I can't even begin to fathom how the high limit players can lose several hundred thousand in a session when I think about all that that money can buy).



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U may not be a bad player, u may have just been on a long breakeven streak. If 50 dollar buyins effects the way u play, then definitely move down limits. When u feel that u are beating the game go ahead and move up again. U gotta be unafraid to lose money to succeed.

Re: Probably a common enough problem, wanted to get some input
 

if you think that 25nl is just too small to play then move up to 50nl but sit with $25... i did this and it became successful like i did... 50nl is hard to make money due to the variance i found but is possible if you have a big bank roll

Re: Probably a common enough problem, wanted to get some input
 

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if you think that 25nl is just too small to play then move up to 50nl but sit with $25... i did this and it became successful like i did... 50nl is hard to make money due to the variance i found but is possible if you have a big bank roll

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wow don't do this

Re: Probably a common enough problem, wanted to get some input
 

The best way to deal with how the money affects you, is just to stick it out (unless you become underrolled at some point) rather than move down. In time, you'll get used to it.

As for beating the game, you are def. good enough drizzle. Your sample size is really much too small at the 50nl level to mean anything at all. If in 50k hands you still feel this way and are a slight winner or a loser, then maybe this post has some merit. When you say other 2p2ers say you play poorly, they may say that you play a certain hand poorly (everyone does, no one is perfect) and they are really just trying to help you plug leaks that they can see. This is really just a self confidence issue.

Re: Probably a common enough problem, wanted to get some input
 

Whenever I moved up a limit I sat it half-stacked and found it really helped psychologically. You just have to get in the hands at that limit until it becomes normal.

Also, anyone is capable of beating nl50, just work at it.

Regards, Punter

Re: Probably a common enough problem, wanted to get some input
 

Whatever your browser bookmark is for 2+2, change it to the micro NL forum index.

Re: Probably a common enough problem, wanted to get some input
 

Interesting, I was just going to post about having this very problem. First, I say read Poker Mindset, but I tell everyone that. Second, learning to do this well is like the most intensive therapy you can go through, but more effective.

My version of this is: after I have a really great winning session (you know, the once in a blue moon dream session) I'm afraid to play. Suddenly, it's MONEY. Doesn't matter which game or what limit. And I know I can lose it as easily as I won it. I start playing that weak/tight [censored].

Here's the deal - doesn't alwys help me, but sometimes it does: you can't win that way and it's a lousy way to play. Screw it - money online isn't your money, anyway - not in your account. Have some fun, call ridiculous crap, donk off a couple hands, then settle down and play your game.

Turn the chat off. Stop talking in forums or anywhere to people who trash your confidence.

If you are playing at the level you say, you gotta be pretty good. Quit obsessing about it and go play your game. Yours. Not some game you think you oughta be playing.




(Someday I gotta take my own advice.....)

Re: Probably a common enough problem, wanted to get some input
 

Get the 2+2 book, The Psychology of Poker. Take the self-assessment test. You might be surprised to find that the "reason" you play poker is something other than to make money. Maybe its the "social" aspect of the forums and ring games. My point is that there are many different reasons that people play this game. And the ones who consistently make money are the ones playing primarily to try and make money.

It's worth the time to fill out the questions and assess your own reasons for playing cards.

After that, I doubt you're not smart enough for poker. But I also doubt that you are aggressively assessing your game, trying different things, reading all of the best books, and posting enough in the stat forums on hands that you question after the fact.

Re: Probably a common enough problem, wanted to get some input
 

If you don't feel comfy at the level don't play at it. Playing scared is going to make you tighter and weaker. Doesn't matter if you're rolled according to br management laws, get rolled to where 50 bucks doesn't matter. Maybe you need 50 buy ins to be comfy. Some people do. Find a level where you have no problem pushing and oesfd on the flop. Play there.

Re: Probably a common enough problem, wanted to get some input
 

This post is pretty long and that's because your OP touches a lot of points that I am momentarily struggling with myself. I hope it helps a little.

For your play: Get a coach. Someone who coaches on a regular basis and has a good reputation. It should be worth the money. I find that when I talk with players that play higher than me and they tell me something about preflop game etc. it's extremely insightfull. I can only recommend it.

For the money issues: Ironically, I got unattached to the money when I moved down from a shot at 100NL. So it's all relative. You might try short stacking 100NL FR for a few K hands and see all the bigger pots and then move down. But short stacking isn't much fun...
I definitely know where you are coming from and when I lose a few buy-ins I'm all on tilt about what I could have done with those 200 bucks etc. I have now cashed out a good amount from my roll to buy a few things. I hope that this helps with the fear to go on a big downswing or figuring out that I'm a losing player too late and end up going busto and having gotten nothing out of the game. So maybe you want to cash out a little bit so that you end up with a good amount that you grind it up from 25NL to 50NL pretty soon.

And if nothing helps you just have to realize: maybe you have a relation to money that is far more sound than that of most people in the industry. When you play for fun: stay on the lower limits. Who cares? You still make a nice buck that you can cash out from time to time. Nothing good comes from playing where you are uncomfortable. Of course there is A LOT of social pressure to move up, esp. from the micro limits, in these forums and that brings me to my final point:

For the forums: Ditch the community stuff. Seriously. I know where you are coming from. Stuff like the brew threads, BBV, BBV4L, OOT are serious killers if you are prone to procrastrinate, as I am. You can waste countless hours. And esp. in the brew threads, there is a lot talk going on about good and bad runs, moving up, bankroll nits etc. that can bring some pressure on of the kind that you are a bad player if you enjoy playing 25NL and don't want to move up. WTF, srsly! If poker is a fun business for you, keep it there. I see no shame in playing 10NL for your whole life if you enjoy it. All those semi-pro-baller-kids in those threads can easily mess with your whole perception of the game.

So my general advice is: take it easy. And when you still want to move up, consider getting a coach.

Re: Probably a common enough problem, wanted to get some input
 

Im playing 100NL now and kinda hit the ceiling. Im just afraid to move up to 200NL, lost 4 bi there. And it got me tilting pretty hard when i moved down. But im gonna move up soon again. You just gotta do it and try it and force it, and you will get used to it. I had kinda the same at 50NL to 100NL. At first it was kinda sick and i was like WOW DUDE I JUST LOST A 100$!!

just set a stop loss, but it can be a little bit devastating if it goes wrong all the time, but just keep in mind, if your beating 50NL or 100NL, a limit up is beatable too, and losing when taking shots is just variance (and maybe little scared play but you will get used to it i guess).

Re: Probably a common enough problem, wanted to get some input
 

yeah i disagree with all this wait until you're comfortable stuff....force the issue. Acclimatize yourself.

If you want/need a coach i can get you someone for fairly cheap too drizzle.

Re: Probably a common enough problem, wanted to get some input
 

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yeah i disagree with all this wait until you're comfortable stuff....force the issue. Acclimatize yourself.


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But does it have to be all at once all the time? I'm just a micro player who dabbles in the next limit a couple times a week so when I earn the bankroll and move up I'll be used to the variance and bet size. At one site I play the higher limit fairly often, now.

Doesn't it make sense, too, at very high stakes to sit in on a limited basis for a while? At least, for some players?

Re: Probably a common enough problem, wanted to get some input
 

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yeah i disagree with all this wait until you're comfortable stuff....force the issue. Acclimatize yourself.


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But does it have to be all at once all the time? I'm just a micro player who dabbles in the next limit a couple times a week so when I earn the bankroll and move up I'll be used to the variance and bet size. At one site I play the higher limit fairly often, now.

Doesn't it make sense, too, at very high stakes to sit in on a limited basis for a while? At least, for some players?

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from what i understood, hes just having trouble adjusting to losing $50 in a hand vs $25. This has nothing to do with his poker skill (but could affect it obv) and nothing to do with his bankroll (but again, could affect it negatively). All that being said, he'll never get comfortable if he doesn't stick it out.