Typical spot and a quiz
 

I have played with villain enough to have some stats but it appears it was full ring, so no real reads. However he's clearly 2p2, and I'm sure he knows I'm 2p2, too. I sat down a few hands ago. this is the first time i've 3-bet him.

No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $10/$20
3 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
Button: $1964.00
Hero: $2167.00
BB: $4540.00

Pre-flop: (3 players) Hero is SB with ? ?
<font color="#cc0000">Button raises to $80</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $280</font>, BB folds, Button calls.

Flop: T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($580, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $411</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Button raises all-in $1684</font>, Hero does what assuming he has;

Re: Typical spot and a quiz
 

call all of them

also this poll is revealing a lot

Re: Typical spot and a quiz
 

All hands probably have about the same ev againts his range. Call all.

Re: Typical spot and a quiz
 

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All hands probably have about the same ev againts his range.

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Disagree, though your idea of his range might be different to mine.

Re: Typical spot and a quiz
 

oh god jay please switch to your old avatar.

Re: Typical spot and a quiz
 

you gay or something?

Re: Typical spot and a quiz
 

a better poll would be what range do we put VILLIAN on [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Typical spot and a quiz
 

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All hands probably have about the same ev againts his range.

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Disagree, though your idea of his range might be different to mine.

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Yea, you are right. JJ probably most strong if my ranges are even someway right. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Typical spot and a quiz
 

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All hands probably have about the same ev againts his range. Call all.

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No, pretty sure that one of them is much worse than the other two.

Re: Typical spot and a quiz
 

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you gay or something?

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the girls 16 (17?) and you look like 39!
sry for OT, tho.

Re: Typical spot and a quiz
 

I'd say JJ&gt;Q9&gt;JT in terms of equity vs his range. If you don't think he'll play a ten with a good kicker this way putting villain on a OP, set, draw or air then Q9=JT&gt;JJ. Meh I'm in way over my head here because I have no idea what his preflop range is 3-handed 10/20...

Re: Typical spot and a quiz
 

Okay. Maybe you can help with my range. I put a range of 99+ 50%,55 50%, 87s, T9s, QJs, KJs, KQs, KQo, ATs (JTs,QTs some &amp; of time). Am i missing something?

Re: Typical spot and a quiz
 

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you gay or something?

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the girls 16 (17?) and you look like 39!
sry for OT, tho.

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Rofl, that was Marlon Brando in my old avatar. I'm 20, look about 18, and the chick is like 17 I think??

Re: Typical spot and a quiz
 

Jay basically look like the girl in his avatar with blue eyes and shorter hair. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: Typical spot and a quiz
 

given that i bet the flop, i call all

Re: Typical spot and a quiz
 

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Okay. Maybe you can help with my range. I put a range of 99+ 50%,55 50%, 87s, T9s, QJs, KJs, KQs, KQo, ATs (JTs,QTs some &amp; of time). Am i missing something?

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gotta add more to this

is villain just folding AK 100% of the time?

What about 89s?

Re: Typical spot and a quiz
 

Can someone enlighten me as to why Qh9h has more equity than JTo with like any range I'm putting into Pokerstove?

Re: Typical spot and a quiz
 

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Can someone enlighten me as to why Qh9h has more equity than JTo with like any range I'm putting into Pokerstove?

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you have 5 outs instead of 3

Re: Typical spot and a quiz
 

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Can someone enlighten me as to why Qh9h has more equity than JTo with like any range I'm putting into Pokerstove?

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Backdoor flush draw.

Re: Typical spot and a quiz
 

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Can someone enlighten me as to why Qh9h has more equity than JTo with like any range I'm putting into Pokerstove?

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you have 5 outs instead of 3

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Only vs the Tx hands which I don't think are a really huge part of his range anyway.

Re: Typical spot and a quiz
 

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given that i bet the flop, i call all

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I wouldn't bet Q9 here.

I wouldn't bet JJ or JT intending to fold.

Re: Typical spot and a quiz
 

i wouldn't be this involved with junk hands to begin with. i'd call the all in with only JJ and fold with J10 or Q9.

Re: Typical spot and a quiz
 

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given that i bet the flop, i call all

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I wouldn't bet Q9 here.

I wouldn't bet JJ or JT intending to fold.

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Sounds good. How about a c/r on that flop? Although a lead and a call isn't bad either. I really really think you are beat here w/ JT or Q9. This is the first time you 3-bet him and you don't have any reads. I just don't see a standard 2p2er getting creative on you the FIRST time you 3-bet. He's gotta give you credit for a decent hand and knows you aren't going to fold hand like top pair or JJ.

Re: Typical spot and a quiz
 

yeah betfolding any of these hands is stupid. i wouldnt mind checking behind with any of them tho

Re: Typical spot and a quiz
 

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Can someone enlighten me as to why Qh9h has more equity than JTo with like any range I'm putting into Pokerstove?

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you have 5 outs instead of 3

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Only vs the Tx hands which I don't think are a really huge part of his range anyway.

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1. 5 outs instead of 3 vs Tx.
2. Bdfd.
3. It's not like JT is ahead of about any hands that Q9 isn't. JT is behind any Tx-combo villain has here and A9/K9 just doesn't seem likely.

Any reasons JT would have a higher equity?

Re: Typical spot and a quiz
 

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yeah betfolding any of these hands is stupid. i wouldnt mind checking behind with any of them tho

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OOP

Re: Typical spot and a quiz
 

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given that i bet the flop, i call all

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Re: Typical spot and a quiz
 

[censored] sorry that changes a lot. i still dont like betfolding and i still dont mind checking tho.

Re: Typical spot and a quiz
 

being OOP doesn't mean you can't check and open up the villains range more

Re: Typical spot and a quiz
 

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being OOP doesn't mean you can't check and open up the villains range more

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Because most people tend to check-call a lot and check-fold very rarely, I actually think many tags have a wider range to shove over a c-bet than to bet if I check to them.

Re: Typical spot and a quiz
 

are u kidding, ppl autofire when checked to, atleast in my experience. also i dont think its bad to c/f in these spots a lot, so its good balance.

Re: Typical spot and a quiz
 

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being OOP doesn't mean you can't check and open up the villains range more

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Because most people tend to check-call a lot and check-fold very rarely, I actually think many tags have a wider range to shove over a c-bet than to bet if I check to them.

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not the weaktight ones

Re: Typical spot and a quiz
 

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Can someone enlighten me as to why Qh9h has more equity than JTo with like any range I'm putting into Pokerstove?

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you have 5 outs instead of 3

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Only vs the Tx hands which I don't think are a really huge part of his range anyway.

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1. 5 outs instead of 3 vs Tx.
2. Bdfd.
3. It's not like JT is ahead of about any hands that Q9 isn't. JT is behind any Tx-combo villain has here and A9/K9 just doesn't seem likely.

Any reasons JT would have a higher equity?

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because if we have a T then it's less likely that he has one and thus relatively more likely that he's making a move

and if you argue that a better T isn't a significant part of his range, then the fact that Q9 has 5 outs instead of 3 outs is irrelevant, can't have it both ways... (and Q9 has only 2 outs against QT, rather than 5)

Re: Typical spot and a quiz
 

I'm not sure how much this quiz accomplishes. this really depends on how villain plays, and how he views you. I mean if he's REALLY nitty, i'm not calling his CR shove w/ JJ.

In general though, in today's tough games where everyone is getting it in really light, you can't fold any (given VERY juicy odds) against your typical 10-20 player.

Edit - I read "full ring" - which I why I was leaning toward folding in some of this situations - but then it looks like its only 3-handed, which (if true) makes this an auto-call in all 3 spots.

Re: Typical spot and a quiz
 

Still, in practise, if you plug it into pokerstove it's impossible to find a sane range where Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] is worse than J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].

JJ only beats either if you include Tx in he mix, and most people do not shove AT here. Even if you include ATs, I think you will find that JJ = J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] to within less than a percent and it is still worse than Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

In the actual hand I held JJ and called, beating his 88, so clearly I should be calling all 3. Still it's an interesting effect.

Re: Typical spot and a quiz
 

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In the actual hand I held JJ and called, beating his 88, so clearly I should be calling all 3. Still it's an interesting effect.

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What do you think of villains play?

Re: Typical spot and a quiz
 

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JJ only beats either if you include Tx in he mix, and most people do not shove AT here.

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why would somebody be shoving so much anus that calling Q9 is a solid move here and NOT shove AT?

Re: Typical spot and a quiz
 

now correct me if i'm wrong, but: 3-handed with this guy and another guy with 4500, i'm assuming that the other guy is a big fish. And as such, this guy should be willing to gamble to get a stack to take him on (as should you, to an extent). So you should call with a wider range than you normally would here.

Re: Typical spot and a quiz
 

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Can someone enlighten me as to why Qh9h has more equity than JTo with like any range I'm putting into Pokerstove?

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you have 5 outs instead of 3

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Only vs the Tx hands which I don't think are a really huge part of his range anyway.

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1. 5 outs instead of 3 vs Tx.
2. Bdfd.
3. It's not like JT is ahead of about any hands that Q9 isn't. JT is behind any Tx-combo villain has here and A9/K9 just doesn't seem likely.

Any reasons JT would have a higher equity?

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because if we have a T then it's less likely that he has one and thus relatively more likely that he's making a move

and if you argue that a better T isn't a significant part of his range, then the fact that Q9 has 5 outs instead of 3 outs is irrelevant, can't have it both ways... (and Q9 has only 2 outs against QT, rather than 5)

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I'm not. In fact JT has a 0.3% higher equity vs AT-JT than Q9, taking combos and outs into consideration. The bdfd is worth 4% extra in equity against most villain's range making up for that deficit though.

Re: Typical spot and a quiz
 

whats your line if button minraises the flop rather than push