Turn Check
 

Villain's in these hands often peel loose, and generally peel any ace high hand.

FT 3/6

1)

Folded to Hero in the CO who opens with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], BB calls.

Flop: 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls

Turn: A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

BB checks, Hero checks

River: T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

BB bets, Hero calls


2)

Hero opens UTG with Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], only the SB calls

Flop: 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

SB checks and calls

Turn: A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

SB checks, Hero checks.

River 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

SB bets, Hero calls

Re: Turn Check
 

How passive is he?

In both hands i would prefer to put in a bet on the turn.

Unless he is super aggresive the first hand is an easy bet/fold for me.

The second is closer to a bet/call, on such a drawy board I would never check behind but bet/fold or bet/call depending on villain

Re: Turn Check
 

I think both are easy bets, both for value and draw-charging. I'd fold the second if checkraised, and probably calldown the first.

Re: Turn Check
 

In the first hand, I didn't see villain drawing to any more than 4 outs. That made it an easy decision for me to check behind and induce bluffs on the river. If I bet the turn in both hands, villain will fold all hands but those that beat me. If I show weakness by checking behind, he will very frequently bet the river with whatever he's got.

Re: Turn Check
 

I think hand 2 is an easy bet. I'm ok with checking hand 1, although in practice I probably stubbornly v-bet it and either get c/r'ed or fold out a worse hand... sigh.

Re: Turn Check
 

I bet the turn and if called, most rivers in both of these.

[ QUOTE ]
If I bet the turn in both hands, villain will fold all hands but those that beat me.

[/ QUOTE ]

If this is true, which I doubt, then you'll pwn them when you bet air on these turns, and you need to bet your pair hands so they don't realize your turn bets are more FOS.

Re: Turn Check
 

[ QUOTE ]
I bet the turn and if called, most rivers in both of these.



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Re: Turn Check
 

In the first hand he could easily have peeled with something like KT that you don't necessarily want to give a freebie too. Could have a worse jack or 56s which will usually call again so you have quite a bit of value IMO. I also agree with sharpie that I'm following up on ace turns so much to induce folds with nothing that checking behind good hands would do damage to this plan.

Re: Turn Check
 

i bet here too.
i use your line against opponement is ver agressif bluffer player but maybe i don t i don t know.

Re: Turn Check
 

Hand 1 - I would bet the turn against a passive, but I like checking behind against others on this board. I think this will induce a ton of bluffs from hands that are way behind or could have even been drawing dead on the turn.

Hand 2 - I bet this against anyone.

Re: Turn Check
 

Hand 1 is fine IMO. If theyre the type to peel K4 or something you give them a chance to bluff the river. Giving free cards isnt a big deal because the pot is small and you'll frequently get a bet out of him on the river anyway.

Hand#2 The board is too draw heavy to check.

Re: Turn Check
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1 is fine IMO. If theyre the type to peel K4 or something you give them a chance to bluff the river. Giving free cards isnt a big deal because the pot is small and you'll frequently get a bet out of him on the river anyway.

Hand#2 The board is too draw heavy to check.

[/ QUOTE ]

you can also get c/r bluffed by those draws, earning more monies.

Re: Turn Check
 

Hand 1 seems bad to me because this seems like the type of flop villan would peel A high with (which is your read). I don't think we're bluff c/r by a weaker pair (no A) very often and when we are c/r with the A turn I like folding and feel this is a pretty safe spot to do so.

Hand 2 - given that we're dealing with a sb cold caller I like the turn check a lot. When c/r (which will happen often) we're usually losing but I hate folding.

Re: Turn Check
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1 is fine IMO. If theyre the type to peel K4 or something you give them a chance to bluff the river. Giving free cards isnt a big deal because the pot is small and you'll frequently get a bet out of him on the river anyway.

Hand#2 The board is too draw heavy to check.

[/ QUOTE ]

you can also get c/r bluffed by those draws, earning more monies.

[/ QUOTE ]

I feel like this type of villain bluffs more often when we check the turn than check raise bluffs.

Re: Turn Check
 

I don't much like getting check-raise bluffed. In Hand 1, I decided that I wouldn't know what to do if I got raised. I might have to call hoping the villain gives up the charade on the river, or call and fold to a river bet unimproved. At the time, I thought that this villain probably didn't have anything and would bluff the river after I check the scare card ace. He bet the river and showed Kc9c. He could have had KT, which would give him 6 outs. In this case I imagine it's still best to check because you win nearly the same amount (1BB). Instead of getting the BB in on the turn, you win it on the river when villain bluffs. Villain doesn't bluff every time, but when I check this turn, he's got to figure his bluff is good.

In Hand 2 I thought of bet/folding the turn. I had a bad feeling this guy had an ace. But if he didn't, he might bluff the river. I figured that if I bet the turn, he would fold, because the turn is an ace and I stand a good chance of having one. So I checked the turn hoping to hit a Queen or have the villain bluff with a worse hand. He bet and showed Ad7d.

I almost always bet the turn in both hands. But I thought for a second, why am I betting? In hand 1, does villain's call mean a J, 6, or 3? He probably doesn't hold those cards. For that villain to call the turn, you would hope he has 55 or something and wants to show down. I couldn't come up with any hands that had any chance of beating me. I thought that if he had a King, he had 3 outs to win .

Hand 2, I figured anyone in the SB calling an UTG raise would have to have some kind of decent hand. Aces made up quite a bit of his range, which also includes 22-99, K9s+, QTs+, something like that. Again, I figured that the ace on the turn would get him to fold if he didn't have one. If he did have it and check-raised the turn, I would have to fold my hand. If he didn't have an ace, he'd probably have 2-5 outs against me and would bluff the river. Checking the river in this instance gave me the opportunity to hit a set on the river and raise a river bet.

I think hand 2 is probably a bet/fold on the turn. I just feared that his preflop coldcall and flop peel meant an ace of some kind, and if not, his hand was a big dog versus mine.

Re: Turn Check
 

Regarding the second hand, there are tons of draws he can have that you're giving him a free shot at by checking, and moreover a lot of pairs or pair+draws that you're just missing value from. Also, assuming he bluffs everytime is not correct IMO, as there are ~0 hands you would play this way and then fold on the river.

Re: Turn Check
 

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I think both are easy bets, both for value and draw-charging. I'd fold the second if checkraised, and probably calldown the first.

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Fold the second b/c villain is more likely to have an Ace because a) he's in the SB and b) the flush draw ?

Just making sure I'm following you here...

Re: Turn Check
 

I don't like the way you played hand 2 at all. You are losing way too much value from all the drawing hands he could have.

Hand 1 is a little better, but betting is still best. I think you are being optimistic about how often the villian bluffs the river. He should see your turn check, as a "see you at showdown" check, because you would bet/fold all of your air hands to rep the ace right?

Re: Turn Check
 

Chicago,
I don't hate calling down the second hand at all given the nature of the board, but I'd be more likely to fold it readless as we raised UTG and he cold-called out the SB so sets or Ax(s) probably makes up a decent portion of his range, and I don't assume people CR semibluff/bluff here when we have an ace in our spot quite a bit.

Re: Turn Check
 

[ QUOTE ]
Regarding the second hand, there are tons of draws he can have that you're giving him a free shot at by checking, and moreover a lot of pairs or pair+draws that you're just missing value from. Also, assuming he bluffs everytime is not correct IMO, as there are ~0 hands you would play this way and then fold on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you are right about the second hand. But as far as folding the river - I think that brings up a good point. Generally when I check behind on the turn, it means I have no pair. I feared that my opponents were catching on to this. So I wanted to mix it up a bit on the turn. I check-raise more often now with my stronger hands when I would usually bet. This helps to induce more checks from my opponents when I'm out of position and have no hand. This new improvement in my strategy seems to be working well so far. I also wanted to do more checking behind on the turn to induce river bluffs. I think there are instances where this is the right play, though it might not occur to you right away. I think Hand 1 is a good example of this, and Hand 2 is a bad example.

One thing I struggle with is what to do on the river with AK/AQ after having bet the flop and turn on a 985J board. I wonder if, instead of betting the turn, I check and save that bet for calling the river. That way I never fold the best hand. Also, I'm afraid that I'm too transparent. When I check the river it becomes obvious that I have no pair, giving the villain good odds on a bluff. I think checking the turn and calling the river might help to prevent me from folding the best hand. That play may give my turn bets more credit, so I can make continuation bets on the turn as well. I just can't do it all the time and check the river, because then my opponents will know I've got AK/AQ and will bet me out of it.

Re: Turn Check
 

yes for hand 1 i like the concept but i think it s really depends about vilain.
if vialin is a calling station obviously never.