Give me a plan
 

Villain is 27/21/3. I've been reasonably active preflop. We've not tangled yet.

Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $1/$2 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

SB: $259.75
Hero (BB): $287.55
UTG: $199.00
MP: $193.40
CO: $30.00
BTN: $230.10

Preflop: Hero is dealt J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (6 Players)
3 folds, <font color="red">BTN raises to $7.00</font>, SB folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $22.00</font>, BTN calls $15.00

Flop: ($45) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)

Re: Give me a plan
 

Bet fold seems pretty standard. If he calls the flop... I don't mind a turn bet at all.

Re: Give me a plan
 

fwiw, i know that bet-fold might not be as +EV as other lines. However, the problem with check-calling on the flop and then check folding or check calling the turn is that our hand is pretty transparent and there's not alot of A high hands that we play this way (although this might be a good way to play AQ).

and given that the villain is very aggressive, i believe he's capable of bluffing us off w a worse hand.

Re: Give me a plan
 

I can't think of many hands that I check the flop with after pfr-ing on a board that has a high-card.

Re: Give me a plan
 

Obviously I don't like the flop, but I don't believe it is correct to just give up. I would bet ~30$ and fold to a raise. If he just calls, I would not fire a non J turn.

Re: Give me a plan
 

Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $1/$2 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

SB: $259.75
Hero (BB): $287.55
UTG: $199.00
MP: $193.40
CO: $30.00
BTN: $230.10

Preflop: Hero is dealt J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (6 Players)
3 folds, <font color="red">BTN raises to $7.00</font>, SB folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $22.00</font>, BTN calls $15.00

Flop: ($45) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red"> Hero bets $30,</font> <font color="red"> BTN raises to $87, </font>Hero.....?

Re: Give me a plan
 

[ QUOTE ]
Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $1/$2 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

SB: $259.75
Hero (BB): $287.55
UTG: $199.00
MP: $193.40
CO: $30.00
BTN: $230.10

Preflop: Hero is dealt J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (6 Players)
3 folds, <font color="red">BTN raises to $7.00</font>, SB folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $22.00</font>, BTN calls $15.00

Flop: ($45) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red"> Hero bets $30,</font> <font color="red"> BTN raises to $87, </font>Hero.....?

[/ QUOTE ]


Instant folds.

Re: Give me a plan
 

id need a better read/history to b/shove

have to fold now.

Re: Give me a plan
 

Dan when you say "relatively active" you mean like he's gonna peel the flop here w/ 88 or he's just calling the r/r w/ AQ type of active? Obv important as you end up folding the best hand sometimes

I think it depends cause normally I'd say easy bet/giveup if called. I think a more interesting question is after you bet and are called what are you doing on [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] turns?

I wouldn't c/c the flop unless you've got some history to work with. Even then wtf he could get QQ to showdown and we'd be kicking ourselves for not betting the flop

Re: Give me a plan
 

[censored], took a long time to make my post before seeing flop action

muck it........

Re: Give me a plan
 

i think folding is best. i just don't think enough players are tricky in 3-bet pots. if you think that he's a tricky player and capable of making a raise on the flop with a wide range, then i'd call and check fold any non J turn.

Re: Give me a plan
 

come on guys....ranges...not "instant folds" and such

Re: Give me a plan
 

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come on guys....ranges...not "instant folds" and such

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Ax/77-kk/junk

I think you can continue here. He's trying to make you fold all non-ace holdings. And if you push, he's got to fold most of his range.

If he were nittier, bet fold looks good.

Re: Give me a plan
 

Sorry..
4c5c, AK, AA,66,33. perhaps AQ, KcQc and 3c4c. I believe that he will rarely bluff at this spot.

Re: Give me a plan
 

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry..
4c5c, AK, AA,66,33. perhaps AQ, KcQc and 3c4c. I believe that he will rarely bluff at this spot.

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He's bluffing (or semibluffing with flush draw) alot more than he's legit here IMO.

Re: Give me a plan
 

after he raises, i would 3bet. its not ak/aq for same concept as your KK thread.

its a set, or a draw.

Re: Give me a plan
 

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after he raises, i would 3bet.

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and we have to 3b, because we need him to fold KK/QQ...we can't just "try to get to showdown"

Re: Give me a plan
 

Any other hands you need help with Dan?

[img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Give me a plan
 

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after he raises, i would 3bet.

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and we have to 3b, because we need him to fold KK/QQ...we can't just "try to get to showdown"

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[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

i think the rest of you guys need to think more in general.

Re: Give me a plan
 

i think getting it in here is horrible

Re: Give me a plan
 

Teh Dan Bitel theorem = never fold anything vs TAGs?

Re: Give me a plan
 

ur probably right my winrate sucks

Re: Give me a plan
 

What makes you think that he's raising the flop with QQ or KK? I think he's more likely to call the flop.

Re: Give me a plan
 

I think he calls the flop with TT - KK. And I think he'd raise the flop with a flush draw and air. Therefore there's really no point in pushing the flop other than to charge him the times he's on a draw, but since he'll call with his made hands, I think pushing is -EV.

Re: Give me a plan
 

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after he raises, i would 3bet.

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and we have to 3b, because we need him to fold KK/QQ...we can't just "try to get to showdown"

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Seems unlikely he raises with KK/QQ, since with those hands he'll almost never get a better hand to fold or a worse to call. If he's bluffing it's probably with a PP lower than JJ or air.

Re: Give me a plan
 

Call and c/r most turns or fold. Usually fold though.

Re: Give me a plan
 

what would you do in this spot nick? (against a relative unknown reg) I'm always torn between c/c and b/f . I think i prefer b/f, im turning my hand into a bluff sort of, but c/c just allows us to get bluffed too often

Re: Give me a plan
 

I don't get fancy here unless villain has a high raise c-bet-%. If he has I don't mind 3-betting here though, because he's probably not raising the flop AQ or worse (raising with AQ or worse is bad without any history). I would guess he'll call the flop with AK or better a lot too, because he's most likely way ahead and IP in a rr pot you might as well give opp some rope.

Re: Give me a plan
 

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what would you do in this spot nick? (against a relative unknown reg) I'm always torn between c/c and b/f . I think i prefer b/f, im turning my hand into a bluff sort of, but c/c just allows us to get bluffed too often

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Yeah, I like leading the flop. How to handle a raise/call obv depends on villain's postflop tendencies. Against some players I 3-bet the flop, but given the info I have I can't tell if this is one of them and in that case I'm leaning towards folding the flop. Imo this is closer than most in this thread thinks.

If villain would like to steal the pot with air he'll do a better job repping a good hand by calling the flop and trying to take the pot on the turn. I personally try to prevent this play by check/raising the turn when I have a strong hand.

Re: Give me a plan
 

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I don't get fancy here unless villain has a high raise c-bet-%. If he has I don't mind 3-betting here though, because he's probably not raising the flop AQ or worse (raising with AQ or worse is bad without any history). I would guess he'll call the flop with AK or better a lot too, because he's most likely way ahead and IP in a rr pot you might as well give opp some rope.

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I think you need to be raising the flop with a larger % of your made hands if you plan on raising the flop with air and draw.

Re: Give me a plan
 

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I don't get fancy here unless villain has a high raise c-bet-%. If he has I don't mind 3-betting here though, because he's probably not raising the flop AQ or worse (raising with AQ or worse is bad without any history). I would guess he'll call the flop with AK or better a lot too, because he's most likely way ahead and IP in a rr pot you might as well give opp some rope.

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I think you need to be raising the flop with a larger % of your made hands if you plan on raising the flop with air and draw.

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Against observant players I agree. Vs OP it would probably be a good idea raising the flop AQ+. Against most players at these limits just calling the flop with Ax is best though.

Re: Give me a plan
 

Uh fold, there really is no other viable option.

Re: Give me a plan
 

What range u put the villain?
you are losing for the majority of villain's hands.

Is bet/fold the +EV play here or check/call?

Re: Give me a plan
 

I am with Nick here, unless his raise-3bet % is high, this is a pretty standard fold.

Yes he is raising here with air/draws a percentage of the time but not enough to make this profitable, especially as your only option is to shove, where he will fold when behind/call when ahead.

Calling just makes the problem worse on the turn, so its either fold or raise/shove, easy fold I think.

Re: Give me a plan
 

ok flame me hard but is c/f really that bad?

Re: Give me a plan
 

c/c prevents this

Re: Give me a plan
 

*sigh* it seems that since i've been gone, hand reading here has taken a step backwards, not forwards.

Basically, I want to know if the best line is to shove it in now, or to call and make a decision on the turn....thoughts?

Re: Give me a plan
 

Maybe I'm a weak-tight nit, but unless I have seen him 1) call 3-bets lightly (I realize he's raising from steal position, but most reasonable SSNL players range for calling 3-bets are not all that loose) 2) go crazeeee in re-raised pots. I'm gonna fold here.

How often do you really get shown a worse hand here? I mean, we're basically banking on him getting frisky w/ a flush draw or air right? I just don't see it very often; I think you're gonna be staring at AJ+ more often than KQo. And besides even if he doesn't have you beat now he probably has a bunch of outs and position in a huge pot.

If you had a reliable read that told you he was capable of huge bluffs in re-raised pots I wouldn't expect your hand to be good / hold up enough to do anything other than fold.

But I'm ready to be convinced otherwise.

Re: Give me a plan
 

Most people play honestly most the time. You have no read or other reason to expect otherwise from this guy in this situation. Here he is saying he has you beat - by that by an ace, a set, or maybe even something like KcQc. Until you have a read (and not just PT numbers) to help you evaluate the situation differently, you should believe him.

Re: Give me a plan
 

Doing some pstove sims he has to be doing this w/ air/88 type hnds a decent amount for you to continue.

Board: Ac 6c 3h
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 27.312% 27.31% 00.00% 7030 0.00 { JcJd }
Hand 1: 72.688% 72.69% 00.00% 18710 0.00 { 66, 33, AKs, KcQc, Tc9c, Tc8c, 9c8c, 9c7c, 8c7c, 7c6c, 7c5c, 5c4c, AKo }

This is assuming as well he's always raising the bare mid fds which are generally what your going to have the best equity against.

Also if he doesn't call rr's light your in rly bad shape pretty much always unless he's raising lower pairs a ton.

Board: Ac 6c 3h
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 14.189% 14.19% 00.00% 2669 0.00 { JcJd }
Hand 1: 85.811% 85.81% 00.00% 16141 0.00 { 66, 33, AKs, KcQc, AKo }

If he can ever have AQ here that rly hurts you to.

Also whoever said 3bet to get rid of QQ/KK those to hnds call the flop just about always unless villain is rly dumb.

Anyway I'd generally check flop because Q/K's shouldnt be a problem, QQ/KK wont fold an I'm not gonna worry about fds in a rr pot ~100bbs deep. I think you make the most off worst hnds this way.

As played if I wanted to continue I'd call and get it in on pretty much any turn because I'd be assuming hnds w/ 2 outs are a large part of his range.

Paul