Does Pokerstars have the right to take money out of my account?
 

Hello everybody.

This is what happened some time ago.
After the end of a tourney the winner(who actually kicked me out of the final table and got a prize worth $20k) tranferred to my account $1000 which i believed was his goodwill and I was thankful to him. However 5 minutes later i receive an email from pokerstars saying that, the transfer was a mistake and was intented for another player with a similar username, so they took the money out of my account.
I wrote back to pokerstars(as i believe i should) telling them that they could not just take money out of my account without my permission because supposedly a player made a mistake, as mistakes in poker involving real money cannot be rectified.
Suppose i was playing 100/200 nlhm and by mistake I call my A high for $10k in a $10k pot against someone elses quads..or even better, suppose a stud session where my opponents open cards beat my best hand however i call his bet on the river does that make me eligible to request from pokerstars to credit back my money because i made a mistake?I DON'T BELIEVE SO.

what do you think?

Re: Does Pokerstars have the right to take money out of my account?
 

They can do whatever they want with your funds, I think their tos pretty much says so, not to mention the fact that even if they are in the wrong - they are in another [censored] country etc. In this case though it really was just a fluke, why are you being so cunty about someones mistake being fixed, its not like you won the money or something, it was found money in the first place.

Re: Does Pokerstars have the right to take money out of my account?
 

how would you feel if you were the player it was intended for? maybe they made a deal. i you really think this way I would hate to know you.

Re: Does Pokerstars have the right to take money out of my account?
 

well dude,
as i learned since i was a kid, "founder keeper", and that is a general notion. What do you mean they can do anything they want with my funds? how can i trust them if they can dig their hands in my pocket whenever they want to? whether it was a fluke or not people get lucky and you can not take that away from them

Re: Does Pokerstars have the right to take money out of my account?
 

[ QUOTE ]
what do you think?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think your example sucks. You're talking apples and oranges now. This didn't happen during a hand. It's an interaccount transfer.

Re: Does Pokerstars have the right to take money out of my account?
 

If someone accidentally deposits $1,000 into your bank account, then immediately notifies the bank of the error, do you really think the bank will let you keep the money?

Re: Does Pokerstars have the right to take money out of my account?
 

then dont trust them and play at another site, you didnt win the money, so I doubt you will get much sympathy here, since you did absolutely nothing to deserve it in the first place.

Re: Does Pokerstars have the right to take money out of my account?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If someone accidentally deposits $1,000 into your bank account, then immediately notifies the bank of the error, do you really think the bank will let you keep the money?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you correctly cite the "founder keeper" rule, they will.

Re: Does Pokerstars have the right to take money out of my account?
 

it's true, this was set as legal precedent in the Supreme Court's famous Founder v. Keeper ruling in the early 30s.

Re: Does Pokerstars have the right to take money out of my account?
 

The "founder keeper" rule is the basis of civilized society.

Re: Does Pokerstars have the right to take money out of my account?
 

yeah some idiot left his keys in his running car at the gas station, thats like a free car for me right? I mean founders keepers would hold up in a court of law im sure, so [censored] grand theft auto.

Re: Does Pokerstars have the right to take money out of my account?
 

the tourney was some kind of a ps promo 10kfpp buy-in winner took $20k and 2-9 just $160 ...while having a chat i mentioned that it was a bit extreme for the winner to be taking 20k while the others just less than $200 and as he kicked me out i believed it was his goodwill to offer 1k compensation or something....anyway thats not the point...the poin is that while the money was in my account (money i made plans for) were taken back without my consent. thats the main issue here...i want to know why would ps have the right to take my money without my permission...and somebody mentioned if there is a bank tranfer mistake the bank can rectify that problem..thats not correct because if you are digitally transfering money from you bank account to someone else responsibility is on you to enter the correct details and the bank gives you no guarantees that if you make a mistake you can have your money back

Re: Does Pokerstars have the right to take money out of my account?
 

[ QUOTE ]
well dude,
as i learned since i was a kid, "founder keeper", and that is a general notion. What do you mean they can do anything they want with my funds? how can i trust them if they can dig their hands in my pocket whenever they want to? whether it was a fluke or not people get lucky and you can not take that away from them

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, if you find someone else's property and you want to keep it, there is a prescribed list of things you need to do for it to be yours legally. And even if there weren't, common decency would dictate that you don't just keep something of value that you have gotten by mistake.

"Finders keepers, losers weepers" is only the rule among toddlers.

You are wrong on so many levels.

Re: Does Pokerstars have the right to take money out of my account?
 

[ QUOTE ]
i believed it was his goodwill to offer 1k compensation or something....anyway thats not the point.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, but it wasn't. This is really clear cut, you are wrong and nobody that isn't in to paint chips is going to agree with you.

Re: Does Pokerstars have the right to take money out of my account?
 

[ QUOTE ]
i want to know why would ps have the right to take my money without my permission.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please come back when they actually take your money.

Re: Does Pokerstars have the right to take money out of my account?
 

It's actually "Finders keepers, losers weepers", and it has been proved beyond all doubt that 'when it comes to lost "movable" property - like cash or pottery or a jar of coffee beans - the law isn't really "finders keepers, losers weepers." It's more like "finders may become keepers but losers still have the best claim, unless they've abandoned the item."'

Re: Does Pokerstars have the right to take money out of my account?
 

[ QUOTE ]
...i want to know why would ps have the right to take my money without my permission...

[/ QUOTE ]

It wasn't your money, plain and simple. You are complaining not that stars took YOUR money, you are complaining they took back someone elses money and gave it back to the rightful owner. I think stars should find a way to fix your account so that when you win pots it randomly gives them to someone else, now that would be entertainment!

Re: Does Pokerstars have the right to take money out of my account?
 

[ QUOTE ]
well dude,
as i learned since i was a kid, "founder keeper", and that is a general notion.

[/ QUOTE ]

clown shoe lives!

Re: Does Pokerstars have the right to take money out of my account?
 

how the [censored] did you "have plans" for money you had less than 5 minutes. It isnt like they waited a week to take it from you, even then they would be right, but [censored].

Re: Does Pokerstars have the right to take money out of my account?
 

[ QUOTE ]
how the [censored] did you "have plans" for money you had less than 5 minutes. It isnt like they waited a week to take it from you, even then they would be right, but [censored].

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe you can get one of your high priced corporate lawyers to explain the general notion of founder keeper to you, gordo.

Re: Does Pokerstars have the right to take money out of my account?
 

[ QUOTE ]
how the [censored] did you "have plans" for money you had less than 5 minutes. It isnt like they waited a week to take it from you, even then they would be right, but [censored].

[/ QUOTE ]

suppose you win 10 million bucks. The instant you win that dont you make plans immediately of bying that exotic car you always wanted?...

Re: Does Pokerstars have the right to take money out of my account?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
how the [censored] did you "have plans" for money you had less than 5 minutes. It isnt like they waited a week to take it from you, even then they would be right, but [censored].

[/ QUOTE ]

suppose you win 10 million bucks. The instant you win that dont you make plans immediately of bying that exotic car you always wanted?...

[/ QUOTE ]

OP, I'd be on your side if the plans for your money included all the following:

Getting 10 gallons of hydroflouric acid and taking a bath in it, while at the same time:

buying a bottle of drano and chasing it with bleach.

Oh yeah, and something about cooking with grease.

And yes, I might make plans with money I legitimately won, but that's not the case with what you're talking about.

I seriously hope you're a troll, cause I'd hate to think there's people like you out there. Of course, I do know better.

Re: Does Pokerstars have the right to take money out of my account?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
how the [censored] did you "have plans" for money you had less than 5 minutes. It isnt like they waited a week to take it from you, even then they would be right, but [censored].

[/ QUOTE ]

I would really not care much if you i am an a$$ for making this discussion...and btw i havent found anything and kept it without the owners consent....the owner actually gave me his money with his will...whether he made a mistake or not i wouldnt care less...

suppose you win 10 million bucks. The instant you win that dont you make plans immediately of bying that exotic car you always wanted?...

[/ QUOTE ]

OP, I'd be on your side if the plans for your money included all the following:

Getting 10 gallons of hydroflouric acid and taking a bath in it, while at the same time:

buying a bottle of drano and chasing it with bleach.

Oh yeah, and something about cooking with grease.

And yes, I might make plans with money I legitimately won, but that's not the case with what you're talking about.

I seriously hope you're a troll, cause I'd hate to think there's people like you out there. Of course, I do know better.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Does Pokerstars have the right to take money out of my account?
 

In this guys defense, who could the winner of this have possibly sent 1K to that ironically has the same name as the guy he beat in 2nd. I do see that Stars took off that "We don't get involved in disputes" language off the transfer screen. Looks like you're SOL, OP but it's a tough sell that the first place finisher meant to send 1K to someone with a similar name, probably made the gesture then realized it's a decent amount of money and freaked.

Re: Does Pokerstars have the right to take money out of my account?
 

A more applicable saying to fit this situation than - finder's keeper's loser's weeper's - is:

When 50 people tell you you're drunk,

LIE DOWN.

Re: Does Pokerstars have the right to take money out of my account?
 

[ QUOTE ]
In this guys defense, who could the winner of this have possibly sent 1K to that ironically has the same name as the guy he beat in 2nd. I do see that Stars took off that "We don't get involved in disputes" language off the transfer screen. Looks like you're SOL, OP but it's a tough sell that the first place finisher meant to send 1K to someone with a similar name, probably made the gesture then realized it's a decent amount of money and freaked.

[/ QUOTE ]

point

Re: Does Pokerstars have the right to take money out of my account?
 

Final email from ps

"The error was not on our side but rather the sender input the incorrect user
ID which was caught and corrected. I am sorry but we do have the right to
correct mistakes and your insistence to get funds you did not deserve are
fruitless.

We reversed this transaction that should have never been completed.
However if you feel what we did was wrong your more than welcome to find
another site. I can assure you though if it was you who made the mistake
you would hold a different perspective of how this situation should be
rectified.

Our decision on this matter is final and we will not credit your account
those funds. We will never take money that is yours but in this case the
money was not intended for you.


Regards,

Trent
PokerStars Support Team"

Re: Does Pokerstars have the right to take money out of my account?
 

Really the point isn't the money which isn't his and he should let it just go. The point is that PS played with his funds without asking him. I'm gonna go find the other thread where FTP refused to touch funds in a mistaken transfer situation much like this one. Guy was beatching the exact opposite -- demanding FTP go get the dough.

Casino apparently can't win in this situation -- wow that's a first...

Re: Does Pokerstars have the right to take money out of my account?
 

http://www.laurieayers.com/applause.jpg

Re: Does Pokerstars have the right to take money out of my account?
 

even though i am a nova on ps i will probably look for another site now as i strongly believe that ps is wrong in this case and they dont have the right to intervene..i will look a bit more into the subject even though i sound like an a$$because i dont belive that people who benefted from my mistakes will come back to me and give me money back in any case and that is the notion for the majority of the population on this planet.

will FT or party give me the best rb from playing compared to ps?

Re: Does Pokerstars have the right to take money out of my account?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Really the point isn't the money which isn't his and he should let it just go. The point is that PS played with his funds without asking him. I'm gonna go find the other thread where FTP refused to touch funds in a mistaken transfer situation much like this one. Guy was beatching the exact opposite -- demanding FTP go get the dough.

Casino apparently can't win in this situation -- wow that's a first...

[/ QUOTE ]

i honestly dont give a bloody [censored] about a thousand bucks..thats money spend in a few hours in some cases..its the principle behind all these i am insisting on
i would appreciate if you could find that thread..

Re: Does Pokerstars have the right to take money out of my account?
 

YSSCKY

Re: Does Pokerstars have the right to take money out of my account?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Really the point isn't the money which isn't his and he should let it just go. The point is that PS played with his funds without asking him. I'm gonna go find the other thread where FTP refused to touch funds in a mistaken transfer situation much like this one. Guy was beatching the exact opposite -- demanding FTP go get the dough.

Casino apparently can't win in this situation -- wow that's a first...

[/ QUOTE ]

i honestly dont give a bloody [censored] about a thousand bucks..thats money spend in a few hours in some cases..its the principle behind all these i am insisting on
i would appreciate if you could find that thread..

[/ QUOTE ]

The principle is that this guy transfered you money by mistake and PS rectified the situation. You were not promised the money and you gave nothing in consideration for the money.

You basically have no leg to stand on.

Re: Does Pokerstars have the right to take money out of my account?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Really the point isn't the money which isn't his and he should let it just go. The point is that PS played with his funds without asking him. I'm gonna go find the other thread where FTP refused to touch funds in a mistaken transfer situation much like this one. Guy was beatching the exact opposite -- demanding FTP go get the dough.

Casino apparently can't win in this situation -- wow that's a first...

[/ QUOTE ]

i honestly dont give a bloody [censored] about a thousand bucks..thats money spend in a few hours in some cases..its the principle behind all these i am insisting on
i would appreciate if you could find that thread..

[/ QUOTE ]

The principle is that this guy transfered you money by mistake and PS rectified the situation. You were not promised the money and you gave nothing in consideration for the money.

You basically have no leg to stand on.

[/ QUOTE ]

btw how do i know it was a mistake and that he did not just regret about the transfer?...

Re: Does Pokerstars have the right to take money out of my account?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Final email from ps

"The error was not on our side but rather the sender input the incorrect user
ID which was caught and corrected. I am sorry but we do have the right to
correct mistakes and your insistence to get funds you did not deserve are
fruitless.

We reversed this transaction that should have never been completed.
However if you feel what we did was wrong your more than welcome to find
another site. I can assure you though if it was you who made the mistake
you would hold a different perspective of how this situation should be
rectified.

Our decision on this matter is final and we will not credit your account
those funds. We will never take money that is yours but in this case the
money was not intended for you.


Regards,

Trent
PokerStars Support Team"

[/ QUOTE ]

Sweet. Could you post the obnoxious emails that resulted in this email?

Re: Does Pokerstars have the right to take money out of my account?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Really the point isn't the money which isn't his and he should let it just go. The point is that PS played with his funds without asking him. I'm gonna go find the other thread where FTP refused to touch funds in a mistaken transfer situation much like this one. Guy was beatching the exact opposite -- demanding FTP go get the dough.

Casino apparently can't win in this situation -- wow that's a first...

[/ QUOTE ]

i honestly dont give a bloody [censored] about a thousand bucks..thats money spend in a few hours in some cases..its the principle behind all these i am insisting on
i would appreciate if you could find that thread..

[/ QUOTE ]

The principle is that this guy transfered you money by mistake and PS rectified the situation. You were not promised the money and you gave nothing in consideration for the money.

You basically have no leg to stand on.

[/ QUOTE ]

btw how do i know it was a mistake and that he did not just regret about the transfer?...

[/ QUOTE ]

True, I would like to see Stars prove that the money was later transferred to someone else. But i highly doubt they would lie. Its not like they are benefiting from this transfer, either way.

Re: Does Pokerstars have the right to take money out of my account?
 

You have no leg to stand on.

What if he made the transfer while you were asleep and it was corrected before you woke up? Would you still make a fuss?

It's not your money, it was never intended for you, and you do not know the sender's intent. They did not take your money, so your claim that PS is taking your money is idiotic.

Take your business to another site if you feel so wronged.

Re: Does Pokerstars have the right to take money out of my account?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Final email from ps

"The error was not on our side but rather the sender input the incorrect user
ID which was caught and corrected. I am sorry but we do have the right to
correct mistakes and your insistence to get funds you did not deserve are
fruitless.

We reversed this transaction that should have never been completed.
However if you feel what we did was wrong your more than welcome to find
another site. I can assure you though if it was you who made the mistake
you would hold a different perspective of how this situation should be
rectified.

Our decision on this matter is final and we will not credit your account
those funds. We will never take money that is yours but in this case the
money was not intended for you.


Regards,

Trent
PokerStars Support Team"

[/ QUOTE ]


To paraphrase (and the consensus is) "you're an idiot".

Re: Does Pokerstars have the right to take money out of my account?
 

And now for the opposite stance from a poker room:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...part=1&vc=1

Re: Does Pokerstars have the right to take money out of my account?
 

[ QUOTE ]
And now for the opposite stance from a poker room:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...part=1&vc=1

[/ QUOTE ]

great..thank you

i take out a few points

FTP email to customer
"Hello XXXX,

Thank you for contacting Full Tilt Poker Support with your player to player transfer error.

While I understand that you have made a mistake in entering the recipient for your player transfer, please be aware that the responsibility is on the sender to ensure that all necessary information is entered correctly.

That being said, we will contact the player on your behalf and request that they transfer the funds back to you. Please understand that if said player chooses not to comply to our request, they cannot be forced to return the funds and Full Tilt Poker cannot be held liable nor are we able to replace those funds.

We thank you for your understanding and hope that the player chooses to comply with your request."



IMO FT is absolutely right to say they will email the receiver and ask him whether he wants the money to be sent back...thats the correct think to do...



"at stars they give you the city name and ask if you are sure. at UB they match the first name and kick it back if you get the screename incorrect with the first name, at FTP they send the money instantly so long as there is a valid screename.

I transferred money mistakenly by one "l" or something one time, you are SOL."


there are measures to take in order to verify that the transfer is going to the correct person.