Legends of Poker $500NL Hand - Turn decision
 

Legends of Poker $535 NL Tournament
Villain 65+ years old, looked like a tight player. So far, he didn't play many hands. He didn't steal the blinds and didn't defend blinds. I didn't see him play post flops since I moved here. But saw him folded many times on the flop to c-bets.

Stack - villain has 1800, I have 1200.
2nd level 25/50. EP limps. I limp with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] from MP. Button limps. Villain completes from SB and BB checks.

5 players, 250 Pot.
Flop 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Check to me, I bet 200. Button folds, SB (villain) calls. Other folds.

2 players, 650 Pot.
Turn Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Villain bets 300, I have 950 behind.

Hero?

Re: Legends of Poker $500NL Hand - Turn decision
 

What's the decision? I am not folding. If old guy has a flush in the blinds, it could be a smaller one. You only have half pot left after calling, so pushing seems better than trying to trap.

Re: Legends of Poker $500NL Hand - Turn decision
 

um. all in.

Re: Legends of Poker $500NL Hand - Turn decision
 

Shove. I was in this too, went out like 43rd. How'd you end up?

Re: Legends of Poker $500NL Hand - Turn decision
 

Ridiculously easy shove.

Re: Legends of Poker $500NL Hand - Turn decision
 

Yeah dude get the money in for sure

Re: Legends of Poker $500NL Hand - Turn decision
 

Fold

Re: Legends of Poker $500NL Hand - Turn decision
 

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What's the decision? I am not folding. If old guy has a flush in the blinds, it could be a smaller one. You only have half pot left after calling, so pushing seems better than trying to trap.

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I agree with everyone. Folding isn't in discussion at all.

Push or call?
Online, this is an easy push. However, most live villains play differently than online players.

From this villain, I believe, if I push the turn, I could only get called if he has flush, Ace[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], two pair or set.

When he bets 300, assumes he doesn't have a flush or A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], his plan is to buy a draw and fold to a push, also bluff. If so, he may bluff the river too. (From his view of me, I bet the flop when checked to me and if I just call the turn, he may not put me on a made flush.)

Therefore, I decided to call the turn and call a river push if the river isn't a diamond.


As played:

I called the turn. Leaving 650 behind.

River 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
He bet 500.
As planned, I moved all-in.

<font color="white"> He folds Jd8h face up </font>

Re: Legends of Poker $500NL Hand - Turn decision
 

Dude he check called the flop and led the turn. You already said he doesn't bluff, so push the turn. Why do you watn to call the turn so you can fold to a diamond river instead of getting the money in ahead? He's never pure bluffing here and I'm surprised he had such a weak hand.

Re: Legends of Poker $500NL Hand - Turn decision
 

Is this one of those questions where we're just seeing if superfluous conversation will result from an obvious question just because its HSMTT?

Anyway, we're not deep, we have the Xth nuts, we don't want to let anyone outdraw us... this is a really easy shove.

Re: Legends of Poker $500NL Hand - Turn decision
 

Ughhh [censored] this tournament.

Lost AQ to KT for chiplead with 31 left... then 2 hands later AJ to the same guys AQ to bubble

Re: Legends of Poker $500NL Hand - Turn decision
 

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Dude he check called the flop and led the turn. You already said he doesn't bluff, so push the turn. Why do you watn to call the turn so you can fold to a diamond river instead of getting the money in ahead? He's never pure bluffing here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Legends of Poker $500NL Hand - Turn decision
 

Raise to like 850, fold on a diamond river

Re: Legends of Poker $500NL Hand - Turn decision
 

I understand most of you think this is a ridiculous easy push on the turn because we put villain on a draw.

But I think, push the turn will only have worse hand fold. On the other hand, 650 is still a lot to play at 25/50/40minute, if the river is a diamond, only Ad , Kd bet the river anyway. A non-diamond river also induces a bluff from a busted draw.

Re: Legends of Poker $500NL Hand - Turn decision
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ughhh [censored] this tournament.

Lost AQ to KT for chiplead with 31 left... then 2 hands later AJ to the same guys AQ to bubble

[/ QUOTE ]

That sucks. Some guys are just so lucky.

Are you in the $300 Rebuy? If so, better luck.

I'm playing Day 2 tonight at 7:15pm.

Re: Legends of Poker $500NL Hand - Turn decision
 

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I understand most of you think this is a ridiculous easy push on the turn because we put villain on a draw.

But I think, push the turn will only have worse hand fold. On the other hand, 650 is still a lot to play at 25/50/40minute, if the river is a diamond, only Ad , Kd bet the river anyway. A non-diamond river also induces a bluff from a busted draw.

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I know you would like to have chips to play with, but I don't like folding to a half pot push on a diamond river. If you think villain will bluff a nondiamond river, why won't he also bluff a diamond river?

Re: Legends of Poker $500NL Hand - Turn decision
 

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If you think villain will bluff a nondiamond river, why won't he also bluff a diamond river?

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That's a good question. however, if he didn't have Ace diamond, since I just called on the turn, he would put me on a bigger flush if the 4th diamond dealt at the river. Overall, I think in this spot calling the turn is better than pushing.

Pushing the turn, either I end up with making 500 less from worse hands or losing all my chips to a higher flush made on the turn. However, if this is against an Internet player or in a multiway pot, pushing the turn isn't questioned at all.

Re: Legends of Poker $500NL Hand - Turn decision
 

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However, if this is against an Internet player

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So you think live players bluff more?

Re: Legends of Poker $500NL Hand - Turn decision
 

no one has said it, but PF is a fold.

Re: Legends of Poker $500NL Hand - Turn decision
 

no it's not. shove turn.

Devo

Re: Legends of Poker $500NL Hand - Turn decision
 

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no one has said it, but PF is a fold.

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The limp is playable in general, and very good in a live tournament for a player like OP who is aggressive and good with reads.

I would probably limp behind in a live tournament, but I would be more likely to raise pf than fold.

Re: Legends of Poker $500NL Hand - Turn decision
 

okay, keep limping T high with 24xbb

i mean, you can make flushes and straights and stuff!

Re: Legends of Poker $500NL Hand - Turn decision
 

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okay, keep limping T high with 24xbb

i mean, you can make flushes and straights and stuff!

[/ QUOTE ]
You also have position and can steal pots from weak live players.

Re: Legends of Poker $500NL Hand - Turn decision
 

OP says we're in MP.

if we were button behind 3 limpers or something, ok. but limping behind a sole (UTG) limp from MP is not an argument in favor of the call

Re: Legends of Poker $500NL Hand - Turn decision
 

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OP says we're in MP.

if we were button behind 3 limpers or something, ok. but limping behind a sole (UTG) limp from MP is not an argument in favor of the call

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I don't mind a limp, raise, or fold here. It depends on your style, the limper and the table. I think you may be undervaluing the strength of the suited gapper to play a flop with and the advantage of seeing a flop against players in a live tournament.

Re: Legends of Poker $500NL Hand - Turn decision
 

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It depends on your style

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no, it does not.

there is no such thing as "style" when we have 24xbb.

a play is either profitable or unprofitable no matter who is making the decision.

Re: Legends of Poker $500NL Hand - Turn decision
 

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[ QUOTE ]
It depends on your style

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no, it does not.

there is no such thing as "style" when we have 24xbb.

a play is either profitable or unprofitable no matter who is making the decision.

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Maybe profitable for OP but unprofitable for you.

Re: Legends of Poker $500NL Hand - Turn decision
 

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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It depends on your style

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no, it does not.

there is no such thing as "style" when we have 24xbb.

a play is either profitable or unprofitable no matter who is making the decision.

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Maybe profitable for OP but unprofitable for you.

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WRONG

IF YOU ARE PLAYING OPTIMALLY THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS STYLE GET IT?

Re: Legends of Poker $500NL Hand - Turn decision
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It depends on your style

[/ QUOTE ]

no, it does not.

there is no such thing as "style" when we have 24xbb.

a play is either profitable or unprofitable no matter who is making the decision.

[/ QUOTE ]
Maybe profitable for OP but unprofitable for you.

[/ QUOTE ]

WRONG

IF YOU ARE PLAYING OPTIMALLY THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS STYLE GET IT?

[/ QUOTE ]
Who here plays optimally? Do you play this as well as Negreanu would?

Re: Legends of Poker $500NL Hand - Turn decision
 

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Who here plays optimally?

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Sorry, I must have misunderstood why we all post here.

Re: Legends of Poker $500NL Hand - Turn decision
 

OevgO,

What is the cutoff, stackwise, for limping here with a SC?
What range are you giving to the weak-tighty limp? What are you doing here with like 22-55?

I am trying to see where it is egregious to spend the 1bb to see a flop.

Re: Legends of Poker $500NL Hand - Turn decision
 

I didn't read many responses, but why was this hand posted? you have flush. Arrin.

Re: Legends of Poker $500NL Hand - Turn decision
 

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't read many responses, but why was this hand posted? you have flush. Arrin.

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OK, guys. All-in Turn is very standard. Just because live tight makes bad bluffs and folds too much plus I really wanted to get the most and risked a free card here, That's why I just called the turn. It's generally bad in most spots.

As why I limp with SC with 24BB, still this is bad online. However, there are differences here between online/live. Online players (high stakes, most posters here) play fundamentally better than live, I don't want to address too much for online. But in small live games, at early levels, you will see 3-4 limpers and most don't fold to late raisers making it hard (for raiser) to c-bet/play post flop with awkard stack size. However, limping pf and bet the flop have better chance to take down pots. Like I said before, a $150 c-bet into $700 multiway pot takes down the pot a lot, it's ridiculous if this is online but very normal in live.

Re: Legends of Poker $500NL Hand - Turn decision
 

I actually like the turn play live. the guy is 65, so he's gonna love finding turn folds with completely ridiculous hands. hell, a non-insignificant amount of the time, the turn shove is a semibluff, because he'll fold a J high flush and idiotically grin at you as he makes his stellar laydown. I'm only mildly exaggerating here.

PF is marginal but definitely not indefensible.

Re: Legends of Poker $500NL Hand - Turn decision
 

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Is this one of those questions where we're just seeing if superfluous conversation will result from an obvious question just because its HSMTT?

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At least I got my answer.

Re: Legends of Poker $500NL Hand - Turn decision
 

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okay, keep limping T high with 24xbb

i mean, you can make flushes and straights and stuff!

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The limp is 100% standard all day long.