Who\'s at fault, the parents or the coach?
 

Question: Who's at fault here and would it bother you if a coach manhandled your son?

This story caught my eye today. I remember reading about it when it happened and when the YouTube video was posted last fall. Man were some people steamed!

Football apology too tiny?


Stay with me here, I know it looks long but it isn't and I really want your opinion! The story involves a youth football coach who allegedly grabbed a 9 yr old player by the face mask last fall and pulled him around so that he could yell at him for being a poor sport. The kid's feet came off the ground for a few seconds. It all happened very quickly. The league says the coach didn't grab him by the mask, the parents demanded an apology.

As I understand it, the parents stated that if they got an apology they would drop their suit and take the video off YouTube. Well after 10 months we finally have the apology! (Lol, 10 months to work out the wording, geez.) Now the father of the boy (John DeMann) is saying he is not happy with it -


[ QUOTE ]

"DeMann says the lettering used in the apology is so small it's barely legible. He also said the apology is inaccurately worded to imply that he and Ricky share fault in the widely publicized incident."
"This is the most immature youth sports board I've ever dealt with, and that apology is a snub in the face of the whole community," says DeMann.



[/ QUOTE ]

Scroll down to the bottom of the football schedule



Lol at the Youth league for printing an apology with tiny font [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]. Anyway, I was wondering if any of you parents would be upset if a coach grabbed your son and is it a reasonable response to sue a coach for swinging a kid by his face mask?

Re: Who\'s at fault, the parents or the coach?
 

Without seeing the youtube video it sounds like the kid over reacted and the parents (oh no my little kid is a perfect angel) made this ridiculous fuss.

Does it ever explain why he was a bad sport?
I feel that if the coaches dont discipline the kids more things like this will happen www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHGwa6Y6qPU

Re: Who\'s at fault, the parents or the coach?
 

there is a reason you can get a 15 yard penalty for face mask in the NFL: its dangerous

Re: Who\'s at fault, the parents or the coach?
 

[ QUOTE ]
there is a reason you can get a 15 yard penalty for face mask in the NFL: its dangerous

[/ QUOTE ]

Not the whole story, there is also the 5 yard variety. Also, the coach claims he didnt grab him by the face mask.

Re: Who\'s at fault, the parents or the coach?
 

well the 5 yard is 'incidental' face mask

anyhow i didnt read article i just skimmed post lol

Re: Who\'s at fault, the parents or the coach?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Without seeing the youtube video it sounds like the kid over reacted and the parents (oh no my little kid is a perfect angel) made this ridiculous fuss.

Does it ever explain why he was a bad sport?


[/ QUOTE ]



Ok I just found another article on this story and here is a quote from it -

[ QUOTE ]

The Demann family admits Ricky struck his quarterback with both fists on the shoulder pads for not passing him the ball.

During a time out -- the Demanns contend Coach Boreing - who is also the quarterback's father -- grabbed Ricky by the facemask and spun him around.

[/ QUOTE ]


Haha, I didn't realize that the coach happens to be the father of the quarterback, the one the kid struck on the shoulder pads. Does that change anything or not?

Also, the coach insists he didn't grab the kid by the face mask and the video was so poor and fast that it was hard to make out. He either grabbed him by the face mask (as the 9 yr old claimed at the time of the incident) or he grabbed his shirt collar. In either case the kid was lifted off the ground. Also, immediately following the incident you could see an assistant coach and another parent kneeling down to comfort the kid so obviously it was a little unusual.

So how would you parents out there react?

Re: Who\'s at fault, the parents or the coach?
 

I happen to have a 12 yr old brother (so he is a bit older then the kid in the story).

My Mom would rush to him and offer him a juice box/snack, ask him if he is all right, generally comfort him, make sure he is okay.

My Dad would probably go to the coach ask him what happened and if the kid deserved it.
If Ricky (my brother) did do something my Dad might give a talk about controlling your temper/anger/behavior etc.

If Ricky did something like the defender did here, he has to understand that is not okay. http://winningtheturnoverbattle.blog...k-mr-roby.html
(scroll down a bit for the video)

If the coach was in the wrong, my parents would ask for a personal apology to them (definitively not on a website). My parents would never sue in this case (no one was hurt), worst that would happen is they ask him to be moved to a different team.

Re: Who\'s at fault, the parents or the coach?
 

This stuff is completely normal in upper level competitive sports. However, actions like this really have no place in youth sports at all; incidents like this are what make incidents in upper level sports seem normal.

Re: Who\'s at fault, the parents or the coach?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Without seeing the youtube video it sounds like the kid over reacted and the parents (oh no my little kid is a perfect angel) made this ridiculous fuss.

Does it ever explain why he was a bad sport?
I feel that if the coaches dont discipline the kids more things like this will happen www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHGwa6Y6qPU

[/ QUOTE ]

I see it differently. It is a 9 year old kid, he should not be lifted from the ground by a coach that is yelling at him. Discipline can be done serenely. The parents over reacted by suing, but this might have come about because the coach was not apologizing.
The little letter apology is ridiculous. It is insulting.

I guess we don't know the big picture so it is hard to blame somebody, but it seems that the coach is the immature person in this.

Re: Who\'s at fault, the parents or the coach?
 

I've never understood the rationale behind making someone apologize who doesn't want to. That's worse than picking up a kid by the face IMO.

As for the story, there's an excellent chance it's accurate if the settlement included the removal of the youtube video. I'm all for toughening up and mildly traumatizing children for their own good, but it seems like he went too far, and should have apologized immediately.

I put the coach at fault on this.

Re: Who\'s at fault, the parents or the coach?
 

I've read numerous times that shaking and impacting one's head are very bad for kids, both from the standpoint of scrambling their brains and for what it can do to their cervical and other vertebrae. It's bad for adults too, of course, but they're at least not in developmental stages and thicker musculature and bones.

Anything that involves shaking a kid's head or creating impact on it is a no-no, and I think that coach needs to knock that off right away. Every coach should know this. I have to blame the school somewhat for not making sure their coaches don't know elementary things like this. This is too dangerous not to know.

And this is coming from someone who whole-heartedly endorses corporal punishment. I'll spank a kid when it seems the best alternative among punishments -- reluctantly, but I'll do it. But I would never lift a kid up by his head! Or give it much of a shake at all, if any. Stuff up there is way too delicate, and you can't really manage the severity of blows to the head or shaking because the damage is internal. Also, the degree of potential damage relies more on momentum and positioning than the power of the blow or shake, and you don't really have any way to judge that even close to accurately while it's happening, much less compare it to any other level of intensity. Compare to swatting a kid's behind: it's near impossible to do any damage of note, fairly easy to tell what intensity it is being done with, and the action is very granular, so you can easily judge the tremendous range between something that stings and something so crazily brutal as to actually have much of a chance of doing any damage.

Everybody draws lines differently, but messing with the head and neck should be forbidden to everybody, always. There's way too much at stake and no way to judge when you might go too far.

Re: Who\'s at fault, the parents or the coach?
 

Yes, swinging a kid by the facemask should get that coach an ass-kicking. There's no reason for it. You could say it's akin to a nanny shaking a baby, couldn't you? I think it's one thing to pull him around by the facemask, but once his feet leave the ground, all bets are off at that point.

[ QUOTE ]
The parties agree that this incident was accidental and affirm that Coach Boreing took no intentional action resulting in abuse.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have a big problem with the word 'accidental'. The coach knowingly let his temper put himself in that position.

b

Re: Who\'s at fault, the parents or the coach?
 

Enrique,

I agree that the parents overreacted and that the coach is being immature. My take on it is that the kid lost his temper and behaved poorly but so did the coach. The coach was steamed and he hauled off and jerked the kid around for a good scolding. I know nothing about football. It seemed to me like a huge overreaction. Why not just bench the little dude or something. I'm glad you thought the tiny font was ridiculous too because I sure got a laugh out of it! [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]


============================


Phil,

[ QUOTE ]
I've never understood the rationale behind making someone apologize who doesn't want to. That's worse than picking up a kid by the face IMO.



[/ QUOTE ]

lol. Not into the forced apology ritual huh? I agree it does seem a little idiotic. I guess it’s a power play, like when my sister used to hold me down until I apologized and forced me to say that I worshipped the ground she walked on. I hated having to do that. It was humiliating.


==========================


Blarg,

Wow, just reading your post makes me fret about kids’ heads. It’s like they have a big egg sitting on top of their shoulders (and any talk of vertebrae dislocation gives me the heebie geebies.)

Ok I understand that lifting a kid by his head is a really poor idea but come on can't you picture yourself infuriated, adrenaline rushing, faced with a kid who won’t listen to you...and you reach out in the heat of the moment and grab his collar and whip him around? Is that a normal reaction for a coach? I guess that would be pretty sketchy for a coach to do. Frankly I think it would be really hard just to watch a coach screaming at my kid let alone lifting him off the ground.

I’m curious to hear Blarg’s take on forced apologies. Good idea?

Re: Who\'s at fault, the parents or the coach?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I happen to have a 12 yr old brother (so he is a bit older then the kid in the story).

My Mom would rush to him and offer him a juice box/snack, ask him if he is all right, generally comfort him, make sure he is okay.

My Dad would probably go to the coach ask him what happened and if the kid deserved it.
If Ricky (my brother) did do something my Dad might give a talk about controlling your temper/anger/behavior etc.

If Ricky did something like the defender did here, he has to understand that is not okay. http://winningtheturnoverbattle.blog...k-mr-roby.html
(scroll down a bit for the video)

If the coach was in the wrong, my parents would ask for a personal apology to them (definitively not on a website). My parents would never sue in this case (no one was hurt), worst that would happen is they ask him to be moved to a different team.

[/ QUOTE ]

Shadowrun,

Your parents sound very reasonable and mature. This is sort of how I'd expect this kind of thing to play out. The fact that the story I linked has become so blown out of proportion is really amusing. I don't know which party is acting more ridiculous but the tiny font thing is making me think it might just be the youth league.

Re: Who\'s at fault, the parents or the coach?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Without seeing the youtube video it sounds like the kid over reacted and the parents (oh no my little kid is a perfect angel) made this ridiculous fuss.

Does it ever explain why he was a bad sport?
I feel that if the coaches dont discipline the kids more things like this will happen www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHGwa6Y6qPU

[/ QUOTE ]

I see it differently. It is a 9 year old kid, he should not be lifted from the ground by a coach that is yelling at him. Discipline can be done serenely. The parents over reacted by suing, but this might have come about because the coach was not apologizing.
The little letter apology is ridiculous. It is insulting.

I guess we don't know the big picture so it is hard to blame somebody, but it seems that the coach is the immature person in this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah your right. The bad player should be given a time out and sent to his room without nintendo Wii for 15 minutes. This discipline method is much better. As no one's feeling's will be hurt by the 67-2 loss the pansy team has to endure.

Re: Who\'s at fault, the parents or the coach?
 

I don't have time to read the whole thread, or look at all the links. I just want to mention:

I've coached little kids before. Holding their face mask to "get their attention" is pretty common.

Lifting or dragging by the face mask is not.

Re: Who\'s at fault, the parents or the coach?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Holding their face mask to "get their attention" is pretty common.

Lifting or dragging by the face mask is not.

[/ QUOTE ]
qft

I played some football during my younger days. Coaches grabbing a face mask was very common. The best way to get a kids attention.
Pulling, dragging, twisting are out of bounds.

Should have sent the kid to run laps.

Re: Who\'s at fault, the parents or the coach?
 

If he were my son, I would inflict some direct physical violence on the asshat that did it.

Re: Who\'s at fault, the parents or the coach?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Question: Who's at fault here and would it bother you if a coach manhandled your son?

This story caught my eye today. I remember reading about it when it happened and when the YouTube video was posted last fall. Man were some people steamed!

Football apology too tiny?


Stay with me here, I know it looks long but it isn't and I really want your opinion! The story involves a youth football coach who allegedly grabbed a 9 yr old player by the face mask last fall and pulled him around so that he could yell at him for being a poor sport. The kid's feet came off the ground for a few seconds. It all happened very quickly. The league says the coach didn't grab him by the mask, the parents demanded an apology.

As I understand it, the parents stated that if they got an apology they would drop their suit and take the video off YouTube. Well after 10 months we finally have the apology! (Lol, 10 months to work out the wording, geez.) Now the father of the boy (John DeMann) is saying he is not happy with it -


[ QUOTE ]

"DeMann says the lettering used in the apology is so small it's barely legible. He also said the apology is inaccurately worded to imply that he and Ricky share fault in the widely publicized incident."
"This is the most immature youth sports board I've ever dealt with, and that apology is a snub in the face of the whole community," says DeMann.



[/ QUOTE ]

Scroll down to the bottom of the football schedule



Lol at the Youth league for printing an apology with tiny font [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]. Anyway, I was wondering if any of you parents would be upset if a coach grabbed your son and is it a reasonable response to sue a coach for swinging a kid by his face mask?

[/ QUOTE ]

Having been seriously involved in youth sports (specifically baseball) over the past 25 years, unfortunately I’ve seen this kind of thing a number of times.

I’ll throw out a few comments………

In this particular case, it’s fairly clear that there’s more going on in this situation than initially meets the eye, given that the ‘coach’ is also the parent of the quarterback, who just happened to be involved in the conflict with Ricky. Kids behaving badly, compounded by over-invested parents following suit happens quite often. I’ve had to mediate numbers of these kinds of situations, and my experience is that you’d be amazed at how immature adults can be under this situation.

The lawsuit and desire for a public apology is IMO, foolish and ego driven. It’s throwing gasoline on the fire in an attempt to put it out.

What is the real goal here? As adults this is a perfect opportunity to teach our kids how to behave properly. In this case (as in so many others that I’ve seen) it ends up as adults setting a very bad example for all the kids involved. Is there any wonder where we learn our bad behavior?

The ONLY time any coach should ever lay their hands on a player is when it is necessary to physically separate players when there is actual fighting going on. If anyone here thinks that there is ANY other legitimate justification for an adult to put his hands on a child, I’d like to hear it.

Bottom line for me given my experiences?

The real problem in most of these cases is the adults.

Kids will be kids, and they will do what is expected, that is….behave like kids.

It’s up to the adults to maintain a “big picture” perspective so that when these things happen they can be remediated in a manner that sets a good example for our children.

Re: Who\'s at fault, the parents or the coach?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Anyway, I was wondering if any of you parents would be upset if a coach grabbed your son and is it a reasonable response to sue a coach for swinging a kid by his face mask?

[/ QUOTE ]

If a coach ever picked up my son by his neck, he'd need a lot more than a lawyer to protect him.

Re: Who\'s at fault, the parents or the coach?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If he were my son, I would inflict some direct physical violence on the asshat that did it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, you would actually have been confrontational on the field? Cool! I'm surprised, I wouldn't have expected that from you, diebitter. Would have made for quite an interesting spectacle if the parents in this story had done that. I would have loved to have seen it! I think a lot of parents don't react like that because they are afraid of getting their kid kicked off the team or making things uncomfortable for the kid, so they just sit there and fume.

Re: Who\'s at fault, the parents or the coach?
 

[ QUOTE ]


The ONLY time any coach should ever lay their hands on a player is when it is necessary to physically separate players when there is actual fighting going on. If anyone here thinks that there is ANY other legitimate justification for an adult to put his hands on a child, I’d like to hear it.

Bottom line for me given my experiences?

The real problem in most of these cases is the adults.

Kids will be kids, and they will do what is expected, that is….behave like kids.

It’s up to the adults to maintain a “big picture” perspective so that when these things happen they can be remediated in a manner that sets a good example for our children.

[/ QUOTE ]


Good post, Myrtle. I agree with you that the fact the coach is the parent of the quarterback is a very significant factor here. I think it explains his overreaction. He let the situation get personal instead of being completely professional and adult-like. Why the league does not see this is beyond me.

I have a good friend who played football throughout h.s. and who is really into sports. He takes the opposite view as you. He thinks kids are brats who need to be smacked and put in their place. He says that things are out of hand in youth sports today, that parents are too influential and that kids get away with smarting off. No amount of talking to him will sway him from this position. I told him I can't wait to see if he feels the same way when he has a kid in sports. He told me he will stand back and let the coach discipline his kid [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img].

Re: Who\'s at fault, the parents or the coach?
 

I never played organized football (our area didn't offer it, we was po'), but I did play basketball. How does a coach get a recalcitrant player's attention in basketball? Grabs him by the shoulder, usually. Does football gear prevent this?

Lou Holtz got in a world of [censored] for (among other things) holding players' facemasks while he yelled at them. And that was at National Champion Notre Dame.

Cliff notes: fire the asshat coach.

Re: Who\'s at fault, the parents or the coach?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If he were my son, I would inflict some direct physical violence on the asshat that did it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, you would actually have been confrontational on the field? Cool! I'm surprised, I wouldn't have expected that from you, diebitter. Would have made for quite an interesting spectacle if the parents in this story had done that. I would have loved to have seen it! I think a lot of parents don't react like that because they are afraid of getting their kid kicked off the team or making things uncomfortable for the kid, so they just sit there and fume.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I were there and this happened, I would seriously attack the coach right there on the field. No way I would just let this happen and then hire a freaking lawyer.

Re: Who\'s at fault, the parents or the coach?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


The ONLY time any coach should ever lay their hands on a player is when it is necessary to physically separate players when there is actual fighting going on. If anyone here thinks that there is ANY other legitimate justification for an adult to put his hands on a child, I’d like to hear it.

Bottom line for me given my experiences?

The real problem in most of these cases is the adults.

Kids will be kids, and they will do what is expected, that is….behave like kids.

It’s up to the adults to maintain a “big picture” perspective so that when these things happen they can be remediated in a manner that sets a good example for our children.

[/ QUOTE ]


Good post, Myrtle. I agree with you that the fact the coach is the parent of the quarterback is a very significant factor here. I think it explains his overreaction. He let the situation get personal instead of being completely professional and adult-like. Why the league does not see this is beyond me.

I have a good friend who played football throughout h.s. and who is really into sports. He takes the opposite view as you. He thinks kids are brats who need to be smacked and put in their place. He says that things are out of hand in youth sports today, that parents are too influential and that kids get away with smarting off. No amount of talking to him will sway him from this position. I told him I can't wait to see if he feels the same way when he has a kid in sports. He told me he will stand back and let the coach discipline his kid [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img].

[/ QUOTE ]

Katy……

Depends on one’s definition of brats.

At what age are we talking of branding kids as ‘brats’?

Your friend is right when he says that parents are too influential and that kids get away with smarting off.

Ask him who lets them get away with it?

Your friend has some serious problems if he thinks that the solution is smacking a kid and putting them ‘in their place”.

Ask him if it worked with him?

If he ‘stands back and lets the coach discipline his child’ he can’t see the forest for the trees, because that’s not the issue at all.

The issue is that it is a parent’s responsibility to teach their children proper behavior, not to leave it to a coach (or a teacher, or the police, or the state).

Sports bring out the best and worst in most of us.

Re: Who\'s at fault, the parents or the coach?
 

[ QUOTE ]



Your friend is right when he says that parents are too influential and that kids get away with smarting off.

Ask him who lets them get away with it?

Your friend has some serious problems if he thinks that the solution is smacking a kid and putting them ‘in their place”.



[/ QUOTE ]

Myrtle,

In fairness to my friend, I think he may be joking when he says that kids these days need to be smacked. I'm not really sure though. Also, I think he means that parents are too influential with youth sports and coaches. They come onto the field and they interfere. They complain about how much play time their kids get and what positions their kids are stuck playing, etc. He's not the only one I heard this kind of stuff from. This happens to be a local story and you wouldn't believe how many people at my office sided with the coach and not the parents of Ricky. I was surprised by the overwhelming support of the coach just based on the facts as I presented them in my OP.

There was one guy at my work, however, who sided with Ricky's parents. He happens to be a football coach for his own son's team. He told me that a coach should never swing a kid by his face mask and it should have been grounds for firing.

I think it's interesting that DrewDevil and Diebitter would have confronted the coach immediately. That's probably the best solution, actually. It doesn't hurt that they are towering and scary looking (j/k! [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]). My sister says it's hard to know when to step in and complain to coaches. The culture of male sports in her small town is rather intimidating and they scoff at her a lot. I can just picture it now - "hey uh, excuse me sir, but could you not swing my kid by the head anymore, thx! I really appreciate it [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]. "

Re: Who\'s at fault, the parents or the coach?
 

Oh yeah, I go about 6'10, 295, so I'm pretty intimidating. Not really. But I would definitely react immediately if I saw something like this.

Tell sis to carry a truncheon to games with her, so she can kneecap any coaches who get out of line.

Re: Who\'s at fault, the parents or the coach?
 

Wow. A lot of blame to pass around here. First, the coach over-reacted by grabbing the face mask and spinning the kid. Absolutely no reason to do that. He could have grabbed him by the shoulder pads and achieved the same result.

Next, the kid's parents sound like they enjoy living vicariously through their little Joe Montana. Dad should have settled things that day with the coach. Lawsuits and written apologies are ridiculous.

Finally, the league should have stepped in and disciplined the coach for his actions. I have coached several youth sports (though not football) and every league that I have been a part had a very clear "Do NOT strike a kid" rule.

So nobody looks good here and the kids receive the worst message possible. Sadly, this is becoming all too standard in youth sports today.

Re: Who\'s at fault, the parents or the coach?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]



Your friend is right when he says that parents are too influential and that kids get away with smarting off.

Ask him who lets them get away with it?

Your friend has some serious problems if he thinks that the solution is smacking a kid and putting them ‘in their place”.



[/ QUOTE ]

Myrtle,

In fairness to my friend, I think he may be joking when he says that kids these days need to be smacked. I'm not really sure though. Also, I think he means that parents are too influential with youth sports and coaches. They come onto the field and they interfere. They complain about how much play time their kids get and what positions their kids are stuck playing, etc. He's not the only one I heard this kind of stuff from. This happens to be a local story and you wouldn't believe how many people at my office sided with the coach and not the parents of Ricky. I was surprised by the overwhelming support of the coach just based on the facts as I presented them in my OP.

There was one guy at my work, however, who sided with Ricky's parents. He happens to be a football coach for his own son's team. He told me that a coach should never swing a kid by his face mask and it should have been grounds for firing.

I think it's interesting that DrewDevil and Diebitter would have confronted the coach immediately. That's probably the best solution, actually. It doesn't hurt that they are towering and scary looking (j/k! [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]). My sister says it's hard to know when to step in and complain to coaches. The culture of male sports in her small town is rather intimidating and they scoff at her a lot. I can just picture it now - "hey uh, excuse me sir, but could you not swing my kid by the head anymore, thx! I really appreciate it [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]. "

[/ QUOTE ]

Katy,

I just responded to what you wrote, dear.

A little more clarity (as you did in the follow up response) would have changed the context of my response to you on this subject.

[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]